ESPN's what does Kobe have to do to surpass MJ?

[al3xis]

I'm not all into stats like OKB...probably 70/30 what I see and what the numbers say....but, I know I'd rather look at/value the stats he posts morethan the pts, rebounds, assists lines.


would TMac have brought the same amount of rings with shaq as kobe? No. I just wouldn't have faith in him to win at that level.

but he absolutely was on par, probably better than Kobe during the regular season for that stretch.


And the efficiency numbers and per 100 posessions numbers are not some way out there, radical made up formulas. They have value.

 

[CP1708]

^
And I see what both are sayin. I don't worry about points/rebs/ etc etc etc too much either, because they can all be taken with a grain of salt.

But as I've asked several times, TMac was not puttin up the numbers Kobe did with a Shaq on his team. Look at what Mac done since Yao came aboard. Stillgood numbers, but down all across the board. He can't get the same shots, the same rhythm he got as when he was out there by himself.

It goes both ways, Kobe and Shaq might get better looks sometimes because they can't be double teamed or whatever, but they also have games where they getin each other's flows and take shots away from the other and vice versa.

I remember specifically, the game that Kobe hit 12 3's in the game, he had like 2 points at the end of the first quarter. By the time he got himselfgoing, he was lights out and set the record. Shaq actually took shots away from him in that game to get his own, beat his man, that sort of thing.
That's prolly why they couldn't get along that well. I also think that has a LOT to do with why Scottie and Mike did get along. Scottie was notnearly the offensive threat so Mike could do more without having to fight for the ball. I don't think Mike would have gotten along with Shaq either, butthat could be another discussion some day.

 

[mytoasterspeak]

This is real simple to people who was actually around to watch MJ win all those titles. I believe personally that the NBA back then was way more competitivefar as TEAMS go. I think the NBA has better more athletically gifted players this generation, and that's why Kobe will never pass MJ. Jordan had to begreat against great PLAYERS and TEAMS where as Kobe don't have to do that. Theres not that many GREAT teams or players in the NBA right now, theres just alot of good teams so Kobe don't have to be as great. Plus, until Kobe wins 6 more titles being THE MAN of his team, he'll never pass Mike'sgreatness. Those first 3 titles were cause of SHAQ, and David Stern trying to create another dynasty to get more people interested in the NBA, so really, hisfirst few championships are a bit tainted. So, basically, KOBE has no chance to even sniff Jordans greatness cause of the state of basketball right now, andnot being THE MAN during his first three.

 

[duba169]

^I def agree that Mike had to face greater competition while he was playing. You can't blame kobe, but it is the way it is. The NBA expanded too much andwe have way more sub-par players/teams in the league.

 

[darthska]

FIRST B0RN:

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Any true die-hard (over the age of 2 Lakers fan that would take Kobe over Magic should be shot and left in the streets. No matter how much hype gets pumped into the septic tank known as ESPN, I will never buy into the hype that Magic is not the greatest Laker ever. I don't care how much longer Kobe plays, he couldn't carry Magic's jock strap when it comes to running a squad. I actually put Magic a fine hair right behind Jordan on the all time great list.
you = me

My answer to that question really just depends on my mood at the time you ask me.

 

[early90s]

There will never be another Mike.
There will never be another Kobe.

 

[darthska]

Osh Kosh: I'd like to know why you're putting so much emphasis on T-Mac's stats being better than Kobe's when it's not like they were FARAND AWAY better than Kobe's. I'm not going back to look at your chart, but only one stat was a full digit better than Kobe's; all the rest weresuperior to Kobe's, yeah, but barely. Granted, some of the numbers are low numbers (like blocks and steals), but it's like Tracy was .9 better thanKobe in those low number categories.

 

[japanair21]

Surpass MJ as the best SG ever?

I don't think Kobe will ever be considered as the best in the game, because that would mean he'd have to be better than Kareem, Wilt, and Russell,ALONG with Magic as well, which is something a lot of people do with Michael because they believe he is the best that ever laced em up.

I rate Kareem a lot higher than a lot of other NTers, I still put Michael as #1, but Kareem is my #2 and it's really more of a 1a 1b with MJ and KareemIMO..

 

[MVP]

I believe Mike is the best that I ever saw, but really it does come down to generational views. It's opinion, no real facts can undoubtedly prove that oneplayer is greater than the other. I mean Russell has the most rings, Kareem scored the most points, etc. So MJ technically wasn't the "best" @everything like some of his stans would lead you to believe. I promise if you ask people from the '60s, '70s, '80s, '90s, and '00s,you'd probably get 5 different answers. As for me it's 1. MJ 1b. Magic...and whoever said Kobe doesn't have an opportunity to become the best Lakerever, you're wrong.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

Osh Kosh: I'd like to know why you're putting so much emphasis on T-Mac's stats being better than Kobe's when it's not like they were FAR AND AWAY better than Kobe's. I'm not going back to look at your chart, but only one stat was a full digit better than Kobe's; all the rest were superior to Kobe's, yeah, but barely. Granted, some of the numbers are low numbers (like blocks and steals), but it's like Tracy was .9 better than Kobe in those low number categories

Somebody made the point in this thread that T-mac from 02-03 was as good as Kobe, and people were acting like it was some crazy thing to say.I'm merely just defending the point...like I said T-Mac isn't beating Kobe by a landslide but at the very least he stacks up to him very evenly.

But like I said I still think Kobe is a better player, because like you said at some point productivity>talent. But T-Mac is as talented as any one in theleague, too bad he's a 7ft tall tin man.

 

[darthska]

Osh Kosh Bosh:

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23ska909red02:

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Osh Kosh: I'd like to know why you're putting so much emphasis on T-Mac's stats being better than Kobe's when it's not like they were FAR AND AWAY better than Kobe's. I'm not going back to look at your chart, but only one stat was a full digit better than Kobe's; all the rest were superior to Kobe's, yeah, but barely. Granted, some of the numbers are low numbers (like blocks and steals), but it's like Tracy was .9 better than Kobe in those low number categories
Somebody made the point in this thread that T-mac from 02-03 was as good as Kobe, and people were acting like it was some crazy thing to say. I'm merely just defending the point...like I said T-Mac isn't beating Kobe by a landslide but at the very least he stacks up to him very evenly.
Fair enough. I'll buy that.

Errr... stacked up to him very evenly, for that time frame you showed stats for earlier.

 

[sickickz23]

Originally Posted by PRETTYPLAYA

Not fair!

Kobe stans owned Kobe fans who are less than 20 years old...owned.

4 straight 50 point games. Hasnt been done since f'n Wilt did it.
81 points, NUFF SAID.
THIS SEASON at 30 years old, 61 pts in like 36 minutes vs the Knicks.

Kobe averaged 45 points in the month of February of 2006. FORTY FIVE. How does that happen?
9 straight 40+ pt games, and 16 straight 35(or 30 i forgot) point games.
I can go on about the things kobe has done as a scorer, which pads my opinion on why i think he's better then Jordan, AS A SCORER.

fam, you must be really young.....I meanJB fan hype young....

Pill Clinton
you're going to have to do better than that. Fail.....

 

[dark chocolate]

In order for Kobe to surpass Mike he'd have to:

1.Play during an era that allowed handchecking, hard picks, no zone, and Big men who actually didn't allow Guards to grab many boards or float into thepaint with ease. We know that this isn't gonna happen.

2.Have defenses meant to initimidate you not by forcing you to your weak hand, but by making you think that they'll actually hurt you if you drove to thebasket. Ask Scottie about that one.

3. Then, have more than ONE player to measure yourself against at your position. During MJ's time, he had to go against an HOF'er at least every othergame.

Kobe like Mike Tyson, is just in an era where he doesn't have enough comp.

 

[nicedudewithnicedreams]

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

Osh Kosh: I'd like to know why you're putting so much emphasis on T-Mac's stats being better than Kobe's when it's not like they were FAR AND AWAY better than Kobe's. I'm not going back to look at your chart, but only one stat was a full digit better than Kobe's; all the rest were superior to Kobe's, yeah, but barely. Granted, some of the numbers are low numbers (like blocks and steals), but it's like Tracy was .9 better than Kobe in those low number categories

Somebody made the point in this thread that T-mac from 02-03 was as good as Kobe, and people were acting like it was some crazy thing to say. I'm merely just defending the point...like I said T-Mac isn't beating Kobe by a landslide but at the very least he stacks up to him very evenly.

But like I said I still think Kobe is a better player, because like you said at some point productivity>talent. But T-Mac is as talented as any one in the league, too bad he's a 7ft tall tin man.

I feel bad for you man. Putting up legit stats as evidence and then having people say things like T-Mac should have better stats with Yao likeKobe did with Shaq for one year... What? I would think your stats (points!) should be lower with someone like a Yao or Shaq... Anyhow, T-Mac's assists didgo up with Yao, not his points though. The Rockets T-Mac is not comparable to Kobe, but there were moments that the Magic T-Mac was a little better than Kobe.But come one, everyone knows Kobe is better than T-Mac career-wise.

Oh yeah, the Sacramento Kings did play defense back then. Well, at least Doug Christie did.

 

[rudolph1996]

Originally Posted by BC2310

Originally Posted by LamarOwnsem

Originally Posted by BC2310


Kobe's team lost a deciding NBA Finals game by 39 points

Mike's team never lost a finals appearance

Kobe will never surpass

Funny how the word 'team' plays a big part in your argument.

And? The word team comes into play because basketball is a team sport not an individual sport, Kobe is the best player in the game right now, Michael is the G.O.A.T.

Funny how Kobe should have 5 rings... Not hating just saying
Funny how They have both been to the finals 6x: Michaels record 24-11, Kobes record 19-11

If Michael was on a team with Shaq and Phil was coaching does anyone think they would've lost to the 03-04 Pistons (Great Squad) 4-1?
It's a rhetorical question, if you think they would've lost how did Wade and Shaq beat them a year later?

If if if.... lol

If MJ had not retired twice... he would at least have 7 if not 8 rings..

If Malone and GP not been old and Shaq played like he gave a damn....the Lakeshow would have won 4 straight....


MJ is MJ

Kobe is Kobe

 

[darthska]

^ Just a minor correction, but we wouldn't have won 4 straight. We won 3 in a row against the Pacers, Sixers, and N.J., then the Spurs beat N.J., then welost to the Pistons.

 

[krispacinla]

Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

FIRST B0RN:

---

Any true die-hard (over the age of 2 Lakers fan that would take Kobe over Magic should be shot and left in the streets. No matter how much hype gets pumped into the septic tank known as ESPN, I will never buy into the hype that Magic is not the greatest Laker ever. I don't care how much longer Kobe plays, he couldn't carry Magic's jock strap when it comes to running a squad. I actually put Magic a fine hair right behind Jordan on the all time great list.

you = me

My answer to that question really just depends on my mood at the time you ask me.


Co-sign. Magic is the best team leader to ever play.

 

[CP1708]

You know Ska, it should be noted that this is another thread that is quasi A >B, but has done pretty well.

People givin points one way or another, no real fussin or cryin, just people havin good solid debates.

 

[darthska]

^ Me and holden both replying in the thread, and you don't think it's been noted?

 

[japanair21]

Originally Posted by CP1708

You know Ska, it should be noted that this is another thread that is quasi A >B, but has done pretty well.

People givin points one way or another, no real fussin or cryin, just people havin good solid debates.

I think it's moreso of no "A>B because I said so threads" rule.

This is a thread where A>B because of C D and E.

That's why it's still open.

 

[al3xis]

Originally Posted by nicedudewithnicedreams

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

Osh Kosh: I'd like to know why you're putting so much emphasis on T-Mac's stats being better than Kobe's when it's not like they were FAR AND AWAY better than Kobe's. I'm not going back to look at your chart, but only one stat was a full digit better than Kobe's; all the rest were superior to Kobe's, yeah, but barely. Granted, some of the numbers are low numbers (like blocks and steals), but it's like Tracy was .9 better than Kobe in those low number categories

Somebody made the point in this thread that T-mac from 02-03 was as good as Kobe, and people were acting like it was some crazy thing to say. I'm merely just defending the point...like I said T-Mac isn't beating Kobe by a landslide but at the very least he stacks up to him very evenly.

But like I said I still think Kobe is a better player, because like you said at some point productivity>talent. But T-Mac is as talented as any one in the league, too bad he's a 7ft tall tin man.

I feel bad for you man. Putting up legit stats as evidence and then having people say things like T-Mac should have better stats with Yao like Kobe did with Shaq for one year... What? I would think your stats (points!) should be lower with someone like a Yao or Shaq... Anyhow, T-Mac's assists did go up with Yao, not his points though. The Rockets T-Mac is not comparable to Kobe, but there were moments that the Magic T-Mac was a little better than Kobe. But come one, everyone knows Kobe is better than T-Mac career-wise.

Oh yeah, the Sacramento Kings did play defense back then. Well, at least Doug Christie did.

did you see the possession's stats posted in regards to Kobe, Tmac and Shaq?

 

[darthska]

JapanAir21:

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CP1708:

---

You know Ska, it should be noted that this is another thread that is quasi A >B, but has done pretty well.

People givin points one way or another, no real fussin or cryin, just people havin good solid debates.

I think it's moreso of no "A>B because I said so threads" rule.
Do you generally think that rules are put in place just for the hell of it, for the power-trip aspect of being able to say 'Because I saidso', or do you recognize that rules are generally put into place to prevent something, but this is just one of those exceptions where you think the rule isthere just for a 'Because I said so' power-trip?

The rule is there because people can seldom handle 'A vs. B' with maturity, and we want the forum to maintain a certain standard, a standard that isdecreased by endless, immature squabbling over unprovable opinions.

 

[noblekane]

Originally Posted by MJsaver

NobleKane wrote:
his two season with washington did take some glow away from him... if his dad wouldnt have died he no doubt would have won atleast 9 straight titles

IF YOURE SERIOUS PLEASE SEEK PROFESSIONAL HELP BECAUSE YOU MUST BE DELUSIONAL......



*Doug Collins is that you?*





is this guy serious? how old are you? must have not followed mj's career.

 

[japanair21]

Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

JapanAir21:

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CP1708:

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You know Ska, it should be noted that this is another thread that is quasi A >B, but has done pretty well.

People givin points one way or another, no real fussin or cryin, just people havin good solid debates.

I think it's moreso of no "A>B because I said so threads" rule.
Do you generally think that rules are put in place just for the hell of it, for the power-trip aspect of being able to say 'Because I said so', or do you recognize that rules are generally put into place to prevent something, but this is just one of those exceptions where you think the rule is there just for a 'Because I said so' power-trip?

The rule is there because people can seldom handle 'A vs. B' with maturity, and we want the forum to maintain a certain standard, a standard that is decreased by endless, immature squabbling over unprovable opinions.

You misunderstood.

I meant that the threads for example like..

I say Tiger Woods is a better athlete than Michael Jordan because I said so.

Not that we (the moderating staff) say so.

 

[CP1708]

I say good job everybody and we start to fall apart.