ESPN's what does Kobe have to do to surpass MJ?

[stephonurkel]

Originally Posted by CROSSISOM

Originally Posted by Si3xers55

this is such BS cuz u cant say that hell never be better than jordan...wut if he averages 50pts 10assists and 10 rebounds for the rest of his career?? and wins 4 more championships? i hate ignorant people that just assume michael jordan is the best that will ever play the game of basketball

The last and only person to average over 50 points a game was Wilt Chamberlain. Kobe doesn't get his buckets THAT easy.

The last person to average a triple double during the season was Oscar Robertson. This generations level of competition wont let him pad his stats THAT easy.

The last person to have 8 rings over their playing career was Bill Russell. He actually has 11 total, but Kobe wont get any rings THAT easy.

Your ignorance isn't contributing to Niketalk so logout by clicking on the button(s) provided. It's THAT easy.

pepsi on monitor

 

[anygivensunday]

SMH @ whoever said TMAC > Kobe
You gonna compare someone who never got out the 1st round to a 4 time champion?

 

[dirtyxcanto]

 

[kl9]

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Jordon can't shoot, like that matters.

It's when people say Lawrence Taylor can't cover, if Jordon started shooting threes you would thank god.

I only see Kobe as a better shooter than MJ, that's about it.

 

[kingkb34]

When the whole world agrees that it won't happen, it's probably not going to. Kobe is a great player in his ownright, let's end the comparisons already.

 

[JD617]

 

[prettyplaya]

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

but we're talking about skill here. Kobe > Michael Jordan.

Bookmarked for future reference when some Kobe apologist claims that noone here has said that Kobe is better than MJ.

He will not surpass him.. Neither in terms of accomplishments, nor in terms of how good he was. MJ between 1988 and 1993 was just a better player than Kobe was or ever will be.

Kobe Bryant has assets to his game that are BETTER than Michael Jordans...Mike might have rings, but we're talking about skill here. Kobe > Michael Jordan.


Better shooter, better scorer, better footwork, better ball-handling, etc.


Skill? Yeah, yeah, bla bla bla. Kobe might have accomplished more, but in terms of SKILL, 2000-03 Tracy McGrady > any Kobe.

First thing is first: Kobe was never as good a shooter as MJ was in 1995-96. Other than that season, Kobe was a better outside shooter than Mike pretty much all other seasons. Mid-range? Never.

Better scorer? Don't make me laugh. MJ has the highest regular season scoring average in history. And if that wasn't enough, his playoff career scoring average is 3+ points higher. And if that wasn't enough, his finals career scoring average is even higher. His scoring consistency was scary. He scored in double figures for 800 or so straight games. And his field goal percentages as a SG were higher than those of most big men.

What about defense? What about the fact that MJ could be a triple-double machine and could average 8 rebounds and 8 assists over a season, when Kobe has never come close to this? Just forget it, any logic has no effect you and your kind. It's like talking to a brick wall who just keeps saying "but he had better skills".

Prove it. Oh, that's right. YOU CAN'T. Instead you just mention it and wait for one of the Team Lakers signatures to agree with you, as if that will make your statement more right.

Man, you guys and your obsessiveness to constantly compare Kobe to MJ is annoying. It's sad how you can't accept the fact that he will never be as good as MJ, but will still have a great career.

It's when people say Lawrence Taylor can't cover, if Jordon started shooting threes you would thank god.

cosigns

 

[clsmooth71]

"please don't feed the crab(s)"

 

[krispacinla]

Kobe great player. Maybe one day the best laker of all time. Best player??? We all know is the man. MJ. End of discussion.

 

[prettyplaya]

Originally Posted by Otis Dont Play That

Let Kobe be his own player. He has nothing to do with MJ and nor does he want any.

LOL

 

[crossisom]

Originally Posted by KL9

I only see Kobe as a better shooter than MJ, that's about it.

Nope.

 

[maxi320]

Phil Clinton - No hate, everyone has their opinion. Kobe is amazing, but hes no MJ.

Check out this article I found. It will rebute your "Better Scorer" "better Shooter" arguments. Jordan has 10 scoring titles. How is Kobe abetter scorer? Jordans career averages are better than Kobe's all around. You can't argue with Numbers.


The Definitive "%%#% saying Kobe=Jordan"
After last night it's not a stretch to say Kobe is one of the greatest NBA players to have ever played. He's been in 6 NBA Finals this decade. Idon't think that's a Robert Horry/Steve Kerr type of coincidence. He's won titles with two completely different teams. There are eight playershowever, that I don't think you can make any argument for Kobe being better than based on career accomplishments: Duncan, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Shaq,Bird, Magic and most assuredly Michael Jeffrey Jordan
I used to consider Jordan Elvis and Kobe the Honky Tonk Man; a poor, but entertaining imitation of greatness that had achieved a championship and etched a markin history. But, like Honky, it's understood that he only won because he had ample help and/or outside interference.Honky Tonk Man had the Hart Foundation,Jimmy Hart and his megaphone. Kobe had Shaq, Phil Jackson, and Referees A and F. However, now that Kobe has won a championship without Shaq, I have no choicebut to elevate Bryant. He has indeed achieved greatness. Now a more apt comparison should be Jordan as the Beatles and Kobe as Oasis. Kobe is now withoutquestion the greatest cover band of Michael Jordan. Like Oasis, Kobe has had a few undoubtedly great seasons/albums. Anyone with half a brain, however,wouldn't compare the two other than saying Oasis/Kobe worship(s) The Beatles/Jordan and has taken great steps to copy their/his style. (The end of gamecelebration? C'mon now.) This admiration and imitation should cause the public to see how ridiculous both look in comparison to their idols. However thereare fools, that will actually say these cover bands are better than the originals. The following will put an end to the Kobe/Jordan comparisons. If anyone saysKobe is comparable or better than Jordan show them this. If they continue to babble on "you are now allowed to officially slap +!*!*%%"
What people don't understand is that by saying Kobe is better than or even comparable to Jordan you are saying that Kobe Bryant is in the discussion forthe greatest ATHLETE of all time. This would mean Kobe is on par with Ruth, Gretzky, Ali, Rice, Nicklaus et al. Now, honestly, what type of ****ery is that?With each of the aforementioned when they retired they had done one or multiple things of a singular nature. To me that's always been the standard forgreatness: "What have you done that no one else in the history of mankind has done?"
If the question is asked of Jordan he could respond:
"I have won 10 scoring championships, including 7 straight, which no one has done. I have won the Finals MVP six times, which is twice as much as anyoneelse has. I am the only person to score 63 points in a playoff game. I scored in double figures in 866 consecutive games. I am the only person to avg 41 pointsin an NBA Finals. I have scored more points in the playoffs than anyone on Earth. I have a higher scoring average than anyone who has lived. I have a higherplayoff scoring average than anyone who has lived. I am the only person who has won the Defensive Player of the Year Award and the scoring title in the sameyear. Not to brag, but think about how incredible that is. Could you imagine a football player who played offense like Jerry Rice and defense like LawrenceTaylor? I'd like to think I've made that absurdity a reality in basketball."
And you, Mr. Bryant? What have you done that noone else has?
"I scored 61 points in Madison Square Garden."
Kobe has played 13 years and that's his only record. Perfectly, that's the exact number of years Jordan played with the Bulls. Other things of noteduring their 13 years of greatness
Scoring Titles: 10 to 2
League MVPs: 5 to 1
Finals MVPs: 6 to 1
If you look at their career averages Jordan and Kobe aren't even close. But honestly it's not a fair comparison because Kobe didn't have theseasoning of 3 years in college that Jordan had. Kobe's first three years were like an incubation period and unfairly pull his statistical averages down.Let's not use those first three years of Kobe and let's instead compare the two from the ages of 21-29, which coincides with Jordan's first runwith the Bulls. This goes up until last year for Kobe when he won the MVP award. So this is Kobe's best stretch of basketball we're including here.During this time Kobe, not coincidentally, lol, played 666 games and Jordan played 667. I want as much of an apples to apples comparison as possible. Solet's look at the two.
Jordan
32.3 PPG 6.3 RPG 5.9 AST 2.7 STLS 1.0 BLK 52% FG
Kobe
28.3 PPG 5.9 RPG 5.3 AST 1.7 STLS 0.6 BLK 46% FG
Jordan beats him in all categories. Now, lest you think that .06 isn't that big of a divide for FG%, here's a little perspective: .06 was thedifference between the best shooting team in the NBA this past season and the worst shooting NBA team. So .06 is a HUGE gap. The 4 PPG gap between the two ismore than the gap between Lebron James and Danny Granger's scoring averages last year. You wouldn't make an argument for the worst shooting team in theleague being comparable to the best would you? Would you make an argument that Danny Granger is a comparable scorer to Lebron James? Also during this timeJordan had 7 scoring titles, 3 MVPs, 3 Finals MVPs and won Defensive POTY. Kobe won 2 scoring titles, and 1 MVP during this time. This is Kobe's prime,folks.
You'll constantly hear the echoing of "Not since Michael Jordan" when it comes to Kobe. Here's one: "Not since Michael Jordan has anyoneaveraged 35 points per game as Kobe did in 2006." What people fail to do when they say things like this is couch the statement with proper qualification.I will. Let's compare both of their 35 PPG seasons shall we. This is a great comparison because Kobe didn't have Shaq and this was Pippen's rookieyear and he didn't start any games; playing less than Michael Pietrus did this year for Orlando. This comparison is indicative of the "Not sinceJordan" shortsightedness
Kobe 2006
35.4 PPG .450 FG% 5.3 RPG 4.5 APG 1.8 STL 0.4 BLK
Jordan 1998
35.0 PPG .535 FG% 5.5 RPG 5.9 APG 3.2 STL 1.6 BLK
In 1998, Jordan won the scoring title, MVP, and Defensive POTY. He led the league in steals and set the all-time record for most blocks by a guard. In 2006Kobe won the scoring title. Now the league FG% during Jordan's year was higher than it was in Kobe's. Some oldtimers say that's because the playerswere more skilled and/or intelligent. For the sake of argument let's say that during Kobe's year the players were in fact more skilled/intelligent, butthe AWESOME defense Kobe and his peers have to face is what limits the offense. Okay. I'll go with that. Seems like it helps Kobe's case, right? Wrong.Let's see who dominated their peers more effectively and compare Mike and Kobe's shooting relative to the rest of their leagues. In 1988 the league FG%was .480 and Jordan shot .535. In 2006 the league FG% was .454 and Kobe shot .450. If you're not good with math let me explain. Kobe shot LOWER than theaverage player in the NBA. Just for emphasis, Kobe led the league in field goal attempts that year, also. I don't know, I'm not that bright, but itwould seem to me that if you have a player who shoots worse than the average player does, you wouldn't want him to shoot more than any other player in theleague. Would you say that person who shot that much had a high basketball IQ? Would you call that person a ballhog? Or would you compare that player to greatathletes like Jerry Rice?
Kobe Bryant has NEVER had a season where he made more shots than he missed. If you look at any so-called great player of the last 40 years they all had atleast some stretch where they made more than they missed. It's even more ridiculous when you think he had Shaquille O +#$!%@* Neal drawing the defense. Soif I'm in Vegas and everytime Kobe shoots I bet he will miss, by the time the season is over I'll be rich. That is super wack. But he's up therewith Ali, huh?
That's just regular season, though. Let's talk about "winning time,"since THE BLACK MAMBA is "the best closer in the game" Now thatthey've both completed 6 NBA Finals let's compare the two in the Finals.
Jordan
33.6 PPG 6.0 RPG 6.0 APG 1.9 STL 0.7 BLK 48% FG
Kobe
24.6 PPG 5.2 RPG 5.3 APG 1.7 STL 0.9 BLK 41% FG
Damn, the gap widens. Also, let's not forget Jordan played 3 of these finals at the age of 33, 34, and 35. Kobe's not 31 yet. It's made even worsewhen you think of who Jordan's sidekick was and who Kobe had. Let's look at the scoring stats of their sidekicks in the Finals.
Pippen - 19.0 PPG 42%
Shaq - 33.6 PPG 60%
Gasol - 16.5 PPG 57%
Jordan had a weak shooting second option in Pippen. Pippen was an elite defender, great finisher, and decent three point shooter, but he was extremely limitedin offensive fundamentals. He also was a complete +$%!+ in the clutch. Jordan had no choice but to carry the offensive burden. Kobe on the other hand, had thegood fortune to play with the greatest half court offensive weapon of all time in Shaq and Gasol at this point is the most skilled post player in the league.Certainly a 33-year-old Tim Duncan isn't superior. In these Finals Gasol averaged 19 and shot 60% with the Defensive Player of the Year opposing him. Sowith two elite low post players drawing double teams and freeing up other players for open shots, Kobe managed to shoot an abysmal 41% from the field. Twice inthe Finals he shot below 40%. Well below his low post superstar teammates. But he's comparable to Babe Ruth?
Let me make this clear also. All this "best closer in the game" is *%%+###+. He's the Lee Smith of closers. He's gotten more opportunitiesand it inflates his numbers. But if you look at his blown opportunities and "close" percentage you see he really is overrated in that regard. Takethese Finals. He got his potential game winning shot blocked by Hedo %*%%@# Turkoglu. The next game with a chance to tie or win the game he wildly dribbledinto a double team and had the ball stolen from him by Michael Pietrus. But he's the best closer in the game? Wait what's Kobe's greatest playoffmoment? .............. Exactly. I can tell you what I remember. Giving up a 3-1 lead to the Suns in the playoffs and scoring 0 points in the second half ofGame 7. I can remember the Celtics blowing them out by 39 points in Game 6 last year and him shooting 32% from the field; being outplayed in those finals byRay Allen and Paul Pierce. I can remember the 2004 Finals when Kobe shot 38% from the field and shot 29 more times than Shaq, who shot 63%. Those Finals he wasoutplayed by Chauncey Billups and Rip Hamilton. Jordan, on the other hand, was never outplayed in any Finals. Playoff moments? Both shots on Russell. Shot onEhlo. Shot on Wilkins. Shrug Game. Shot to send the game into OT in game 3 of 91 Finals. Not to mention the shot at UNC. Jordan in the playoffs has hit 3 shotsthat ended the other team's season. That's a closer.
More on the second fiddle topic:
In 1998 Scottie Pippen missed 35 games. During that 35 game stretch the bulls went 24-11 for a .686 winning percentage. Projected over 82 games that's a57-25 record, which would have been second in the Eastern Conference. In 1993 the Bulls had a record of 57-25 and finished second in the Eastern Conference.They won the NBA Title that year. So, yes Pippen helped, but I'm just sayin....
Beyond all the quantitative and qualitative analysis outlined above, there is this:
Bryant told detectives in Eagle, Colo.: "He should have done what Shaq does ... that Shaq would pay his women not to say anything" and already hadpaid up to $1 million "for situations like this."
But he's up there with Jordan, huh?

 

[MVP]

Why are people still arguing? He's not MJ, he'll never be MJ, he'll always be Kobe Bryant, one of the best to ever do it. Give it a rest.

 

[jsindaa]

Originally Posted by maxi320

Phil Clinton - No hate, everyone has their opinion. Kobe is amazing, but hes no MJ.

Check out this article I found. It will rebute your "Better Scorer" "better Shooter" arguments. Jordan has 10 scoring titles. How is Kobe a better scorer? Jordans career averages are better than Kobe's all around. You can't argue with Numbers.


The Definitive "%%#% saying Kobe=Jordan"
After last night it's not a stretch to say Kobe is one of the greatest NBA players to have ever played. He's been in 6 NBA Finals this decade. I don't think that's a Robert Horry/Steve Kerr type of coincidence. He's won titles with two completely different teams. There are eight players however, that I don't think you can make any argument for Kobe being better than based on career accomplishments: Duncan, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Shaq, Bird, Magic and most assuredly Michael Jeffrey Jordan
I used to consider Jordan Elvis and Kobe the Honky Tonk Man; a poor, but entertaining imitation of greatness that had achieved a championship and etched a mark in history. But, like Honky, it's understood that he only won because he had ample help and/or outside interference.Honky Tonk Man had the Hart Foundation, Jimmy Hart and his megaphone. Kobe had Shaq, Phil Jackson, and Referees A and F. However, now that Kobe has won a championship without Shaq, I have no choice but to elevate Bryant. He has indeed achieved greatness. Now a more apt comparison should be Jordan as the Beatles and Kobe as Oasis. Kobe is now without question the greatest cover band of Michael Jordan. Like Oasis, Kobe has had a few undoubtedly great seasons/albums. Anyone with half a brain, however, wouldn't compare the two other than saying Oasis/Kobe worship(s) The Beatles/Jordan and has taken great steps to copy their/his style. (The end of game celebration? C'mon now.) This admiration and imitation should cause the public to see how ridiculous both look in comparison to their idols. However there are fools, that will actually say these cover bands are better than the originals. The following will put an end to the Kobe/Jordan comparisons. If anyone says Kobe is comparable or better than Jordan show them this. If they continue to babble on "you are now allowed to officially slap +!*!*%%"
What people don't understand is that by saying Kobe is better than or even comparable to Jordan you are saying that Kobe Bryant is in the discussion for the greatest ATHLETE of all time. This would mean Kobe is on par with Ruth, Gretzky, Ali, Rice, Nicklaus et al. Now, honestly, what type of ****ery is that? With each of the aforementioned when they retired they had done one or multiple things of a singular nature. To me that's always been the standard for greatness: "What have you done that no one else in the history of mankind has done?"
If the question is asked of Jordan he could respond:
"I have won 10 scoring championships, including 7 straight, which no one has done. I have won the Finals MVP six times, which is twice as much as anyone else has. I am the only person to score 63 points in a playoff game. I scored in double figures in 866 consecutive games. I am the only person to avg 41 points in an NBA Finals. I have scored more points in the playoffs than anyone on Earth. I have a higher scoring average than anyone who has lived. I have a higher playoff scoring average than anyone who has lived. I am the only person who has won the Defensive Player of the Year Award and the scoring title in the same year. Not to brag, but think about how incredible that is. Could you imagine a football player who played offense like Jerry Rice and defense like Lawrence Taylor? I'd like to think I've made that absurdity a reality in basketball."
And you, Mr. Bryant? What have you done that noone else has?
"I scored 61 points in Madison Square Garden."
Kobe has played 13 years and that's his only record. Perfectly, that's the exact number of years Jordan played with the Bulls. Other things of note during their 13 years of greatness
Scoring Titles: 10 to 2
League MVPs: 5 to 1
Finals MVPs: 6 to 1
If you look at their career averages Jordan and Kobe aren't even close. But honestly it's not a fair comparison because Kobe didn't have the seasoning of 3 years in college that Jordan had. Kobe's first three years were like an incubation period and unfairly pull his statistical averages down. Let's not use those first three years of Kobe and let's instead compare the two from the ages of 21-29, which coincides with Jordan's first run with the Bulls. This goes up until last year for Kobe when he won the MVP award. So this is Kobe's best stretch of basketball we're including here. During this time Kobe, not coincidentally, lol, played 666 games and Jordan played 667. I want as much of an apples to apples comparison as possible. So let's look at the two.
Jordan
32.3 PPG 6.3 RPG 5.9 AST 2.7 STLS 1.0 BLK 52% FG
Kobe
28.3 PPG 5.9 RPG 5.3 AST 1.7 STLS 0.6 BLK 46% FG
Jordan beats him in all categories. Now, lest you think that .06 isn't that big of a divide for FG%, here's a little perspective: .06 was the difference between the best shooting team in the NBA this past season and the worst shooting NBA team. So .06 is a HUGE gap. The 4 PPG gap between the two is more than the gap between Lebron James and Danny Granger's scoring averages last year. You wouldn't make an argument for the worst shooting team in the league being comparable to the best would you? Would you make an argument that Danny Granger is a comparable scorer to Lebron James? Also during this time Jordan had 7 scoring titles, 3 MVPs, 3 Finals MVPs and won Defensive POTY. Kobe won 2 scoring titles, and 1 MVP during this time. This is Kobe's prime, folks.
You'll constantly hear the echoing of "Not since Michael Jordan" when it comes to Kobe. Here's one: "Not since Michael Jordan has anyone averaged 35 points per game as Kobe did in 2006." What people fail to do when they say things like this is couch the statement with proper qualification. I will. Let's compare both of their 35 PPG seasons shall we. This is a great comparison because Kobe didn't have Shaq and this was Pippen's rookie year and he didn't start any games; playing less than Michael Pietrus did this year for Orlando. This comparison is indicative of the "Not since Jordan" shortsightedness
Kobe 2006
35.4 PPG .450 FG% 5.3 RPG 4.5 APG 1.8 STL 0.4 BLK
Jordan 1998
35.0 PPG .535 FG% 5.5 RPG 5.9 APG 3.2 STL 1.6 BLK
In 1998, Jordan won the scoring title, MVP, and Defensive POTY. He led the league in steals and set the all-time record for most blocks by a guard. In 2006 Kobe won the scoring title. Now the league FG% during Jordan's year was higher than it was in Kobe's. Some oldtimers say that's because the players were more skilled and/or intelligent. For the sake of argument let's say that during Kobe's year the players were in fact more skilled/intelligent, but the AWESOME defense Kobe and his peers have to face is what limits the offense. Okay. I'll go with that. Seems like it helps Kobe's case, right? Wrong. Let's see who dominated their peers more effectively and compare Mike and Kobe's shooting relative to the rest of their leagues. In 1988 the league FG% was .480 and Jordan shot .535. In 2006 the league FG% was .454 and Kobe shot .450. If you're not good with math let me explain. Kobe shot LOWER than the average player in the NBA. Just for emphasis, Kobe led the league in field goal attempts that year, also. I don't know, I'm not that bright, but it would seem to me that if you have a player who shoots worse than the average player does, you wouldn't want him to shoot more than any other player in the league. Would you say that person who shot that much had a high basketball IQ? Would you call that person a ballhog? Or would you compare that player to great athletes like Jerry Rice?
Kobe Bryant has NEVER had a season where he made more shots than he missed. If you look at any so-called great player of the last 40 years they all had at least some stretch where they made more than they missed. It's even more ridiculous when you think he had Shaquille O +#$!%@* Neal drawing the defense. So if I'm in Vegas and everytime Kobe shoots I bet he will miss, by the time the season is over I'll be rich. That is super wack. But he's up there with Ali, huh?
That's just regular season, though. Let's talk about "winning time,"since THE BLACK MAMBA is "the best closer in the game" Now that they've both completed 6 NBA Finals let's compare the two in the Finals.
Jordan
33.6 PPG 6.0 RPG 6.0 APG 1.9 STL 0.7 BLK 48% FG
Kobe
24.6 PPG 5.2 RPG 5.3 APG 1.7 STL 0.9 BLK 41% FG
Damn, the gap widens. Also, let's not forget Jordan played 3 of these finals at the age of 33, 34, and 35. Kobe's not 31 yet. It's made even worse when you think of who Jordan's sidekick was and who Kobe had. Let's look at the scoring stats of their sidekicks in the Finals.
Pippen - 19.0 PPG 42%
Shaq - 33.6 PPG 60%
Gasol - 16.5 PPG 57%
Jordan had a weak shooting second option in Pippen. Pippen was an elite defender, great finisher, and decent three point shooter, but he was extremely limited in offensive fundamentals. He also was a complete +$%!+ in the clutch. Jordan had no choice but to carry the offensive burden. Kobe on the other hand, had the good fortune to play with the greatest half court offensive weapon of all time in Shaq and Gasol at this point is the most skilled post player in the league. Certainly a 33-year-old Tim Duncan isn't superior. In these Finals Gasol averaged 19 and shot 60% with the Defensive Player of the Year opposing him. So with two elite low post players drawing double teams and freeing up other players for open shots, Kobe managed to shoot an abysmal 41% from the field. Twice in the Finals he shot below 40%. Well below his low post superstar teammates. But he's comparable to Babe Ruth?
Let me make this clear also. All this "best closer in the game" is *%%+###+. He's the Lee Smith of closers. He's gotten more opportunities and it inflates his numbers. But if you look at his blown opportunities and "close" percentage you see he really is overrated in that regard. Take these Finals. He got his potential game winning shot blocked by Hedo %*%%@# Turkoglu. The next game with a chance to tie or win the game he wildly dribbled into a double team and had the ball stolen from him by Michael Pietrus. But he's the best closer in the game? Wait what's Kobe's greatest playoff moment? .............. Exactly. I can tell you what I remember. Giving up a 3-1 lead to the Suns in the playoffs and scoring 0 points in the second half of Game 7. I can remember the Celtics blowing them out by 39 points in Game 6 last year and him shooting 32% from the field; being outplayed in those finals by Ray Allen and Paul Pierce. I can remember the 2004 Finals when Kobe shot 38% from the field and shot 29 more times than Shaq, who shot 63%. Those Finals he was outplayed by Chauncey Billups and Rip Hamilton. Jordan, on the other hand, was never outplayed in any Finals. Playoff moments? Both shots on Russell. Shot on Ehlo. Shot on Wilkins. Shrug Game. Shot to send the game into OT in game 3 of 91 Finals. Not to mention the shot at UNC. Jordan in the playoffs has hit 3 shots that ended the other team's season. That's a closer.
More on the second fiddle topic:
In 1998 Scottie Pippen missed 35 games. During that 35 game stretch the bulls went 24-11 for a .686 winning percentage. Projected over 82 games that's a 57-25 record, which would have been second in the Eastern Conference. In 1993 the Bulls had a record of 57-25 and finished second in the Eastern Conference. They won the NBA Title that year. So, yes Pippen helped, but I'm just sayin....
Beyond all the quantitative and qualitative analysis outlined above, there is this:
Bryant told detectives in Eagle, Colo.: "He should have done what Shaq does ... that Shaq would pay his women not to say anything" and already had paid up to $1 million "for situations like this."
But he's up there with Jordan, huh?

This article is EXTREMELY biased...

 

[bc2310]

Kobe's team lost a deciding NBA Finals game by 39 points

Mike's team never lost a finals appearance

Kobe will never surpass

 

[DsLee]

I don't like how people make it seem like if Kobe doesn't surpass Jordan, then he's a failure. Kobe will go down as one of the greatest to do it,but probably not better than Jordan; time just isn't on his side.

 

[MVP]

Originally Posted by DsLee559

I don't like how people make it seem like if Kobe doesn't surpass Jordan, then he's a failure. Kobe will go down as one of the greatest to do it, but probably not better than Jordan; time just isn't on his side.

Truth. Everyone always says there will NEVER be another MJ, yet at the same time try and compare them and put out the possibility that someonecould pass him, it makes no sense. Kobe won't be a failure at all, if he gets 2 more rings and ends up with 6, he'll be the best Laker of all time andthat's saying something right there.

 

[maxi320]

JsindA - The article may be biased, but at the same time, it was very factual. It had a lot of numbers and stats that speak for themselves. I didn't writeit, but I found it, and it was fitting to the thread.

Kobe actually said it best in one of his interviews with Magic during the finals. He said something to the effect of....

"Just to be mentioned/put in the same category as some of those guys (Mike, magic, Bird, Dr J. etc.) is an accomplishment."

He explained how he doesn't strive to be better than any of them, nor does he think he is or will be better than them. But he feels, to be categorized ason of the best to ever do it is a fair assessment.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Originally Posted by maxi320

Phil Clinton - No hate, everyone has their opinion. Kobe is amazing, but hes no MJ.
wall of text.
In 1998 Scottie Pippen missed 35 games. During that 35 game stretch the bulls went 24-11 for a .686 winning percentage. Projected over 82 games that's a 57-25 record, which would have been second in the Eastern Conference. In 1993 the Bulls had a record of 57-25 and finished second in the Eastern Conference. They won the NBA Title that year. So, yes Pippen helped, but I'm just sayin....
Beyond all the quantitative and qualitative analysis outlined above, there is this:
Bryant told detectives in Eagle, Colo.: "He should have done what Shaq does ... that Shaq would pay his women not to say anything" and already had paid up to $1 million "for situations like this."
But he's up there with Jordan, huh?

lol this is why why PER> this wall of text.

PER puts all of that stuff into one number.

 

[wttm]

win 5 more as the leader and finals mvp.

 

[vietishi]

If Kobe really wants to surpass Jordan that would mean winning a minimum of at least 3-4 more reg MVPs, 3 more Final's MVP, 3 more Championship rings.Highly unlikely.

Jordan didn't exactly set the standard low.
Kobe imo can very well contend for the MVP award next season if his team reaches 67+ wins and it's very possible because Ariza and Odom (don't let themleave

) finally got a good 3 point stroke going (both shot around 45%+during the playoffs which is amazing)

 

[gangtsa]

Originally Posted by PRETTYPLAYA

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

but we're talking about skill here. Kobe > Michael Jordan.

Bookmarked for future reference when some Kobe apologist claims that noone here has said that Kobe is better than MJ.

He will not surpass him.. Neither in terms of accomplishments, nor in terms of how good he was. MJ between 1988 and 1993 was just a better player than Kobe was or ever will be.

Kobe Bryant has assets to his game that are BETTER than Michael Jordans...Mike might have rings, but we're talking about skill here. Kobe > Michael Jordan.


Better shooter, better scorer, better footwork, better ball-handling, etc.

Skill? Yeah, yeah, bla bla bla. Kobe might have accomplished more, but in terms of SKILL, 2000-03 Tracy McGrady > any Kobe.

First thing is first: Kobe was never as good a shooter as MJ was in 1995-96. Other than that season, Kobe was a better outside shooter than Mike pretty much all other seasons. Mid-range? Never.

Better scorer? Don't make me laugh. MJ has the highest regular season scoring average in history. And if that wasn't enough, his playoff career scoring average is 3+ points higher. And if that wasn't enough, his finals career scoring average is even higher. His scoring consistency was scary. He scored in double figures for 800 or so straight games. And his field goal percentages as a SG were higher than those of most big men.

What about defense? What about the fact that MJ could be a triple-double machine and could average 8 rebounds and 8 assists over a season, when Kobe has never come close to this? Just forget it, any logic has no effect you and your kind. It's like talking to a brick wall who just keeps saying "but he had better skills".

Prove it. Oh, that's right. YOU CAN'T. Instead you just mention it and wait for one of the Team Lakers signatures to agree with you, as if that will make your statement more right.

Man, you guys and your obsessiveness to constantly compare Kobe to MJ is annoying. It's sad how you can't accept the fact that he will never be as good as MJ, but will still have a great career.

It's when people say Lawrence Taylor can't cover, if Jordon started shooting threes you would thank god.

cosigns




What exactly did tmac do better than kobe at that time. He wasnt than and has never been a better player but other than distributing i'd like to hear howhe's more skilled.

 

[23mcpizzle23]

Originally Posted by zube42

Nobody is going to surpass Jordan, it just won't happen. Even if it did I don't thing people would accept it.

yep

haters gona hate

 

[5am6oody72]

What's funny is that even if Kobe WAS better than MJ, all the MJ stans/worshippers would still defend him and come up with reasons why he is the greatest.I don't think Kobe is better than MJ, but I guarandamntee if somebody comes along in the next few years and wins 8 chips and a bazillion scoring titles andaverages 35 ppg for his career, people would STILL find a way to discredit him and say that MJ is better because of the global icon and media creation thatJordan was. The only thing as bad as Kobe stans is MJ stans.

 

[three6mafia2007]

Originally Posted by gangtsa

Originally Posted by PRETTYPLAYA

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

but we're talking about skill here. Kobe > Michael Jordan.

Bookmarked for future reference when some Kobe apologist claims that noone here has said that Kobe is better than MJ.

He will not surpass him.. Neither in terms of accomplishments, nor in terms of how good he was. MJ between 1988 and 1993 was just a better player than Kobe was or ever will be.

Kobe Bryant has assets to his game that are BETTER than Michael Jordans...Mike might have rings, but we're talking about skill here. Kobe > Michael Jordan.


Better shooter, better scorer, better footwork, better ball-handling, etc.

Skill? Yeah, yeah, bla bla bla. Kobe might have accomplished more, but in terms of SKILL, 2000-03 Tracy McGrady > any Kobe.

First thing is first: Kobe was never as good a shooter as MJ was in 1995-96. Other than that season, Kobe was a better outside shooter than Mike pretty much all other seasons. Mid-range? Never.

Better scorer? Don't make me laugh. MJ has the highest regular season scoring average in history. And if that wasn't enough, his playoff career scoring average is 3+ points higher. And if that wasn't enough, his finals career scoring average is even higher. His scoring consistency was scary. He scored in double figures for 800 or so straight games. And his field goal percentages as a SG were higher than those of most big men.

What about defense? What about the fact that MJ could be a triple-double machine and could average 8 rebounds and 8 assists over a season, when Kobe has never come close to this? Just forget it, any logic has no effect you and your kind. It's like talking to a brick wall who just keeps saying "but he had better skills".

Prove it. Oh, that's right. YOU CAN'T. Instead you just mention it and wait for one of the Team Lakers signatures to agree with you, as if that will make your statement more right.

Man, you guys and your obsessiveness to constantly compare Kobe to MJ is annoying. It's sad how you can't accept the fact that he will never be as good as MJ, but will still have a great career.

It's when people say Lawrence Taylor can't cover, if Jordon started shooting threes you would thank god.

cosigns




What exactly did tmac do better than kobe at that time. He wasnt than and has never been a better player but other than distributing i'd like to hear how he's more skilled.

I would like to know as well.Offensively it's debatable, but defensively kobe was far more superior. there is no comparison