Government Shutdown 2013-2014 My Civil Servant Brethern...what you think

RustyShackleford said:
-No one is required to have ID when walking the streets.

-The government got involved in slavery. White plantation owner lost the right to won slaves, the lost some freedom by definition. See how that logic can get turned against you B :lol:
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1. Exactly my point. Your boy is the one saying ID is required.

2. Actually you are right, the abolishment of slavery had everything to do with the taking away of freedoms and had nothing to do with the Civil Rights of African Americans (which is the angle you are trying to take on this) and history has proved this. Although... it is directly relevant to the Civil Rights of African Americans. In this case their is no Civil Liberty saying you have a right to healthcare, nor does not providing healthcare impede on the Civil Liberties of others as did the ownership of slaves. Now forcing people to abide by a set of rules or be penalized for not doing so, now that does impedes on your freedoms and Civil Liberties. But that was a good playbook talking-point you made.
 
8tothe24 said:
Really now?

What if you live in a State where there is no sales tax, you don't pay taxes on those goods.
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The percentage of people that pay no government taxes what so ever is so damn small why would you even choose to argue this point?

I said the guy pushing Obamacare won. Is that not a fact? Was it not his go to move during the election? Point is, if you voted for him, you knew what would come of that vote if he won the election -- Obamacare. While you may have voted for him because you felt his OVERALL plan was the best, but didn't agree with the ACA, you knew good and well that voting for him was supporting his healthcare plan being that it's what he was going to do in office. He made no secrets of that. It's not some **** he thought up AFTER the fact.

I thought the police could take you into the station, at their discretion, to verify who you were if you were stopped with no identification. Not that it was illegal to not have any ID.
 
011781 said:
The percentage of people that pay no government taxes what so ever is so damn small why would you even choose to argue this point?

I said the guy pushing Obamacare won. Is that not a fact? Was it not his go to move during the election? Point is, if you voted for him, you knew what would come of that vote if he won the election -- Obamacare. While you may have voted for him because you felt his OVERALL plan was the best, but didn't agree with the ACA, you knew good and well that voting for him was supporting his healthcare plan being that it's what he was going to do in office. He made no secrets of that. It's not some **** he thought up AFTER the fact.

I thought the police could take you into the station, at their discretion, to verify who you were if you were stopped with no identification. Not that it was illegal to not have any ID.
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You said it champ, not me.

You tried to make the 2nd term election of Obama a mutually inclusive event to supporting healthcare. People vote on a multitude of issues that they prioritize in different ways. Some people don't give a F and some people are just misinformed and some people make it their mission in life. What you stated can never be proven for fact.
 
What does the whole government involvement in slavery have to do with anything?

I just don't see how it's any different from the other taxes we pay and don't make this much of a fuss about.

Buy a house, pay property tax.

Drive a car, must have insurance, or pay a fine.

Work, pay a tax.

Live in a state with sales tax, pay tax.

Your city wants to build a new stadium, pay a tax.

Want to live in America and not have health insurance, pay a tax.

What is freedom?

Doesn't having laws mean there really is no freedom?
 
Day 3

im still working but due to us being under furlough we cant take leave and my mother is flying in from 4 states away tonight for 2 weeks.

damn.

on top of all that now i find out there's a hurricane coming?

damn.

all this talk about the shutdown, i had no idea there was a hurricane in the gulf.
 
8tothe24 said:
You said it champ, not me.

You tried to make the 2nd term election of Obama a mutually inclusive event to supporting healthcare. People vote on a multitude of issues that they prioritize in different ways. Some people don't give a F and some people are just misinformed and some people make it their mission in life. What you stated can never be proven for fact.
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If you voted for him, you supported it -- whether directly or indirectly.

He ran on his healthcare plan. If he won, he was putting it in play.

It's like when you sign up for something and agree to the Terms of Service. In Obama's terms of service was the ACA.

I don't like some of eBay's policies, fees, etc, but I knew when I signed up what they were going to do.

It'd be one thing if Obama pulled this rabbit out his hat once the election was over and he won, but that wasn't the case.
 
Rico x Hood said:
Well yes, you are wrong. The baby boomer generation retired and there is a whole lot of them. They have stretched SS to the brink, so in order for them and other soon to be retirees to get the money back that they have been paying for a lifetime, the money that I am putting in is going to them. So yes we are carrying the older generation on our backs and they are benefiting from the blood, sweat, and tears of my generation of workers. If for some reason we decided to not work SS would run out. These are the facts.
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And the baby boomers are not responsible for many of the laws, programs, etc that you benefit from today?

Oh word. Ok.
 
Freedom to starve, die in the streets and go bankrupt is the type of "freedom" they want.
 
011781 said:
What does the whole government involvement in slavery have to do with anything?

I just don't see how it's any different from the other taxes we pay and don't make this much of a fuss about.

Buy a house, pay property tax.

Drive a car, must have insurance, or pay a fine.

Work, pay a tax.

Live in a state with sales tax, pay tax.

Your city wants to build a new stadium, pay a tax.

Want to live in America and not have health insurance, pay a tax.

What is freedom?

Doesn't having laws mean there really is no freedom?
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Ask Rusty, he brought slavery up and he is in your corner. Using the tried and true method of distraction.

House, you live in a community and use those services.
Cars, you drive on streets you use that service.
You work, you pay your Federally-mandated obligation to the state.
Stadium- Doing what the feds do at a smaller level.
Healthcare- You can choose to move cities, states, not drive, not work... being alive was not your choice, nor does your bodies internal actions have any implications on others as does owning property, driving or working. There is no implication on society if you get cancer, walk out into a field and die (sorry to be so cruel but it is true). Insurance is to protect others not yourself and taxes are meant to provide public needs services to the public. Your healthcare is no need to or of the public. This is like arguing that the right to own a home means you must be given a home or the right to work means society must give you a job. There is a limit to what is really a right.

What's not talked about is what I went back too, federal control of healthcare; therefore, taxes to provided such service. Now the federal government requires more of your money to provide you a service that they deemed you need and will make decisions for you as such. The federal government has made many power grabs throughout history and this is another such instance. You think these democrats really care about your well being? They went to the same schools, have the same friends, receive money from the same banks and corporations as the evil right wing white racists. But they are progressives... progressives exist in both parties and their movement would be much happier if the multitude of the masses just ceased to exist.

But people as demonstrated in this thread, need someone to blame for this government shutdown and that is all that matters, and what they want you to focus on... the blame. Have you ever heard the term divide-and-conquer...

And yes, we do live in a society of restricted freedoms. But what makes Americans great, is that we don't give up our freedoms without a fight. Look at the sheep's wool job Bush and Obama have done to Americans rights in the name of national security as a perfect example of what can happen without oversight and push back from the American people.

Anyways, I've got work to do. My employer has paid enough for me to be on here. I'll just chalk it up to my taxes to pay for Obamacare.
 
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Rico x Hood said:
You're all over the place man. I can't follow what point you're trying to make.
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You believe that old, retirees are leeching off of you.

You don't believe that old, working people have paid their dues to society.

I simply stated that you have some set of balls to think that young people are holding down the country.

Not sure how that's being all over the place.
 
8tothe24 said:
There is no implication on society if you get cancer, walk out into a field and die (sorry to be so cruel but it is true). Insurance is to protect others not yourself and taxes are meant to provide public needs services to the public. Your healthcare is no need to or of the public.
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This comment is what it all boils down to.

Do you not believe that a healthier society is a more productive one, and that a more productive society benefits everyone?

I believe that. That's why I support measures to accomplish that.

That's where I stand.

I feel that we're better as a whole, than as individual parts.
 
011781 said:
This comment is what it all boils down to.

Do you not believe that a healthier society is a more productive one, and that a more productive society benefits everyone?

I believe that. That's why I support measures to accomplish that.

That's where I stand.

I feel that we're better as a whole, than as individual parts.
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I already knew this without you saying it; because, you aren't the first one to take that as your fundamental stance. The problem with that stance is that it is one of morals and our government is the last entity to say they make decisions based upon morals (and I don't even need to provided examples of this, the multitude that exist are beyond listing in any amount of reasonable time). Furthermore, you are deciding that your morals are superior to my decision that the financial interest of this country is more important than spending over a trillion dollars over 10 years to provide 6 years of services. All in the name of providing healthcare to 20 million of the 50 million uninsured Americans. How about abortion, is that not immoral? War, is that not immoral? The list can go on. But it won't stop politicians from exploiting your moral convictions for their benefit.

In my heart I want everyone to be healthy and successful and treated with fairness. In my mind I know it is unrealistic to expect that our government will make the correct decisions to provide such services; nor is it the responsibility of the whole (federal government) to provide for the health of every individual in society. It just isn't realistic and is going to financially destroy this country. The only entity to benefit from this is the insurance agencies, and they win no matter which path we go.
 
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I'm reading through this thread (pg 6) and honest to god every response from Rico x Hood got me thinking of Homer Simpson :lol:
 
@8tothe24 -

Feeling that a healthier society benefits all involved isn't a moral issue.

I'm not for healthcare because it's a "feel good story".  I'm for it because I feel it puts us all in a better state financially.

So, there's where our difference is -- if we have a difference. It's possible that you agree with the idea, just not the blueprint.

It's a financial issue to us both it seems.
 
8tothe24 said:
I already knew this without you saying it; because, you aren't the first one to take that as your fundamental stance. The problem with that stance is that it is one of morals and our government is the last entity to say they make decisions based upon morals (and I don't even need to provided examples of this, the multitude that exist are beyond listing in any amount of reasonable time). Furthermore, you are deciding that your morals are superior to my decision that the financial interest of this country is more important than spending over a trillion dollars over 10 years to provide 6 years of services. All in the name of providing healthcare to 20 million of the 50 million uninsured Americans. How about abortion, is that not immoral? War, is that not immoral? The list can go on. But it won't stop politicians from exploiting your moral convictions for their benefit.

In my heart I want everyone to be healthy and successful and treated with fairness. In my mind I know it is unrealistic to expect that our government will make the correct decisions to provide such services; nor is it the responsibility of the whole (federal government) to provide for the health of every individual in society. It just isn't realistic and is going to financially destroy this country. The only entity to benefit from this is the insurance agencies, and they win no matter which path we go.
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The government (federal and state) is already in the business of keeping Americans from starving to death, or living on the streets when they lose their employment. It seems that you're using a slippery slope argument about freedoms being lost when the real issue is that a for-profit healthcare system, and a major part of our population using the ER as their doctor (which raises everyone else's premiums) is far from ideal for a 21st century nation. The ACA is not perfect, it's far from it. Yet, it is an honest attempt at fixing a major problem our country faces. You can keep bringing up freedom and liberty but I'm sure you, and many Americans, will gladly throw their mythological understanding and commitment to the constitution out of the window when faced with a significant health problem. Again, the ACA does not come close to solving our healthcare problems, and many (particularly Obama supporters) are waiting for the day we have universal healthcare in this country.
 
wsdesigner14 said:
The government (federal and state) is already in the business of keeping Americans from starving to death, or living on the streets when they lose their employment. It seems that you're using a slippery slope argument about freedoms being lost when the real issue is that a for-profit healthcare system, and a major part of our population using the ER as their doctor (which raises everyone else's premiums) is far from ideal for a 21st century nation. The ACA is not perfect, it's far from it. Yet, it is an honest attempt at fixing a major problem our country faces. You can keep bringing up freedom and liberty but I'm sure you, and many Americans, will gladly throw their mythological understanding and commitment to the constitution out of the window when faced with a significant health problem. Again, the ACA does not come close to solving our healthcare problems, and many (particularly Obama supporters) are waiting for the day we have universal healthcare in this country.
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yet you are holding out for that mythological universal healthcare that will provide for everyone and cost noting to anyone and all the increasing financial woes of the cost of healthcare will magically go away... gotcha, I fully understand where you are coming from.

America keeps people from starving to death and elderly off the streets because that was a problem in the past where people (elderly were literally dieing on the street). That DOES impact society. Your cold and your yada yada have no impact on the function of society. Sorry to break it to you, but you and I mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. The only thing the government cares from us is that we pay our taxes. Why do you think Obamacare creates so many jobs in the IRS.

And the abuse of the ER is just one of the problems this country faces and will not be solved by Obamacare.
 
DoItAllPaul said:
we shouldn't have to pay taxes to the government for the days that it is non-existent
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100% agree with this. Why are we still paying for services that aren't provided to us?

All this arguing about how bad Obamacare is but there is NOTHING anyone including the GOP can do about it.

I mean it was voted on by the Supreme Court! Their final word is the LAW of the land.. just like abortion, same sex marriages, etc.. etc...

Are disgruntled Americans this stubborn that they can't deal with the truth? Stop with all this doom and gloom forecasting, losing your freedoms, Govt programs sucks, yada dee, yada dey. What does it matter? All this complaining and crying isn't going to change anything. You take what the law is, apply its benefits to you and yours, and keep it moving. Isn't it as simple as that?
 
8tothe24 said:
yet you are holding out for that mythological universal healthcare that will provide for everyone and cost noting to anyone and all the increasing financial woes of the cost of healthcare will magically go away... gotcha, I fully understand where you are coming from.

America keeps people from starving to death and elderly off the streets because that was a problem in the past where people (elderly were literally dieing on the street). That DOES impact society. Your cold and your yada yada have no impact on the function of society. Sorry to break it to you, but you and I mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. The only thing the government cares from us is that we pay our taxes. Why do you think Obamacare creates so many jobs in the IRS.

And the abuse of the ER is just one of the problems this country faces and will not be solved by Obamacare.
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Of course, because having a financially-sound UHC system is just a myth...right?

http://www.theatlantic.com/internat...-health-care-americas-still-not-on-it/259153/

Maybe it's time we stop blinding ourselves with the idea of "American Exceptionalism" and things like "freedom" and "liberty" and pursue a solution to our problems? If the majority of first world nations have some sort of government-run healthcare system, and are able to keep it financially-sound and effective in keeping their populations relatively healthy, why can't we do the same?
 
employer-mandate-infographic.png


this is what employers have to deal with after 2014.....
 
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