Israel declares War - Destruction of Gaza / Growing conflict in Middle East

[DLF]

 

[DLF]

 

[me love nutella]

Developing story ...

 

[DLF]

Developing story ...

Video of his confession already out

awaiting subtitles.

They claim to have lots more info…


Let’s hope Saudi and UAE are exposed in this

 

[DLF]

 

[DLF]

 

[DLF]

“Believe women!!!!”

 

[DLF]

Another one bites the AIPAC dust

 

[degenerate423]

 

[gry60]

Another one bites the AIPAC dust

AOC is not an idiot.

She is right about the fact hatred can undermine a movement, especially when the main pillar of that movement is acceptance of all folks. I don't see how recognizing the negative impact of antisemitism on her side of the political sphere is an endorsement of Israel shoving any criticism of their policies under the "antisemitism" blanket.

 

[Belgium]

AOC is not an idiot.

She is right about the fact hatred can undermine a movement, especially when the main pillar of that movement is acceptance of all folks. I don't see how recognizing the negative impact of antisemitism on her side of the political sphere is an endorsement of Israel shoving any criticism of their policies under the "antisemitism" blanket.

This genocide and the rhetoric around it has caused a significant increase in outright racism and genuine antisemitism* in online leftist/progressive communities from what I've come across personally.
A very obvious example is if you look at what's being posted in the Twitch chat of the most popular politics streamer on the left, which is Hasan Piker. What makes it worse is that Hasan is one of the most absolute ignorant 'influencers' (I hate this term) I've ever seen. Genuinely a complete moron. I don't understand how anyone, let alone thousands, could stand more than a minute of him speaking on just about any political issue. Sure he has some good takes but that's largely overshadowed by constantly misinforming his many thousands of devoted followers, lying, gaslighting, ...

I think it's a minority but regardless, there are still quite a few people just openly engaging in genuine antisemitism from behind the veil of being a pro-Palestinian activist.

By genuine antisemitism I'm referring to real antisemitism, not the 'criticizing Israel is antisemitic' nonsense that innocent protesters/activists are often smeared as.

 

[DripNick]

Speaking of antisemitism, look at these horrible "antisemitic Orthodox Jews"

 

[me love nutella]

AOC is not an idiot.

She is right about the fact hatred can undermine a movement, especially when the main pillar of that movement is acceptance of all folks. I don't see how recognizing the negative impact of antisemitism on her side of the political sphere is an endorsement of Israel shoving any criticism of their policies under the "antisemitism" blanket.

Again, Israel's fault because they conflated Zionism and criticism of state of Israel as antisemitism.

I have seen some antisemitism, and I call it out and nip it ASAP, but what I have mostly seen is actually mainly criticism of Israel/Zionism labeled as antisemitism. So that is why folks are coming at AOC, for not calling out the real antisemitism but allowing Zionist propagandists on her platform to push that anti-Zionism/criticism of Israel is antisemitism.

 

[me love nutella]

Hamas committed war crimes and violence on October 7, but again, Israel's fault for maximizing exaggerated and fabricated propaganda to manufacture consent for genocide. Interestingly enough, the war crimes and violence by Hamas that day was enough and stands as is...So why the need for the fabricated atrocity propaganda?

Also, for a very serious allegation on using sexual violence as a systemic weapon of war, why did Israel not cooperate with the UN investigation?

Also, this is already known:


The UN's Human Rights Office, unlike Pramila Patten's office, actually does have an investigatory mandate and abilities.

In addition:

 

[me love nutella]

This is all not new and same tactics used as actual systemic weapon of occupation, torture, violence and subjugation for decades now. But, somehow the 'Believe Israeli Women' crowd is only what matters and is centered.

 

[gry60]

Again, Israel's fault because they conflated Zionism and criticism of state of Israel as antisemitism.

Israeli exaggerations have nothing to do with the fact that there are loud folks on the Left who do not accept any solution that doesn't lead to the dissolution of the state of Israel. Those are the folks who would call AOC a Zionist for recognizing antisemitism on the left and supporting a two-state solution.

The political reality is that Palestinians and Jews cannot share a state right now, and any long-term solution that has any chance to maintain a peaceful situation between both nations cannot include the end of an Israeli state as a prerequisite. Current and past Palestinian leaders have never made demands that did not threaten the existence of an Israeli state. If you're gonna make the argument that such demands do not open the door to the kind of antisemitic sentiment AOC is denouncing, be my guest. I won't pretend to be naive.

 

[Belgium]

Again, Israel's fault because they conflated Zionism and criticism of state of Israel as antisemitism.

I have seen some antisemitism, and I call it out and nip it ASAP, but what I have mostly seen is actually mainly criticism of Israel/Zionism labeled as antisemitism. So that is why folks are coming at AOC, for not calling out the real antisemitism but allowing Zionist propagandists on her platform to push that anti-Zionism/criticism of Israel is antisemitism.

Let's also not take away people's own autonomy and accountability. Conflating criticism of Israel with antisemitism is an Israeli tactic, sure, but the morons repeating that propaganda are hardly less at fault.

 

[me love nutella]

Israeli exaggerations have nothing to do with the fact that there are loud folks on the Left who do not accept any solution that doesn't lead to the dissolution of the state of Israel. Those are the folks who would call AOC a Zionist for recognizing antisemitism on the left and supporting a two-state solution.

The political reality is that Palestinians and Jews cannot share a state right now, and any long-term solution that has any chance to maintain a peaceful situation between both nations cannot include the end of an Israeli state as a prerequisite. Current and past Palestinian leaders have never made demands that did not threaten the existence of an Israeli state. If you're gonna make the argument that such demands do not open the door to the kind of antisemitic sentiment AOC is denouncing, be my guest. I won't pretend to be naive.

Do you consider the dissolution of the state of Israel as anti-Semitic? It is very interesting how Zionists don't see how Israel and Zionism internalized anti-Semitism and its of very nature is inherently a racist violent settler colonial state. The calling for its dissolution is also to end Israel as the violent settler colonial state since that is its roots and foundation.

But then again, I have shared I am a one-state solution proponent, so in itself it can be a bi-national state within a unitary state, owing to the hope that the state would be a homeland for both Jews and Palestinians. So this unitary state would comprise a single government on the entire territory with citizenship and equal rights for all residents, regardless of their ethnicity or religion.

 

[gry60]

Do you consider the dissolution of the state of Israel as anti-Semitic?

I mean... The intent of demands such as the rejection by Palestinian leaders of a partial return of refugees and reparations in exchange for statehood or the insistence on flooding Israel with "masses of returning Palestinians" is pretty transparent, don't you think?

Since the creation of the state of Israel, MENA countries have expulsed their Jewish population, and they've all found refuge in that state. Today, Israel, a West Asian country, with the largest share of its population originating from MENA, doesn't even participate in regional cultural events because of security issues. The soccer team plays in the Euros . Israelis sing in the Eurovision contest. Meanwhile, Lebanon and Jordan play in the Asian games.
The public in other middle eastern countries does not tolerate the presence of obviously Jewish folks in their public spaces. There was a lot of outrage in Saudi Arabia when a rabbi visited Riyad during the normalization talks between Israel and Saudi Arabia.

That's the situation today in that region of the world.

With the context above established and understood, am I supposed to believe that merging all the territorial entities within Mandatory Palestine will result in PEACE? Come on!

We know what's likely to happen, and pretending that the animosity between the two peoples runs one way is having blinders on (or being intentionally deceitful). We also know that all those Arabs and Mizrahi Jews carrying Israeli passports and speaking Hebrew will not be welcome in other MENA countries if they ever "went back to where their fathers came from."

I don't know how you can reach another conclusion.

 

[me love nutella]

I mean... The intent of demands such as the rejection by Palestinian leaders of a partial return of refugees and reparations in exchange for statehood or the insistence on flooding Israel with "masses of returning Palestinians" is pretty transparent, don't you think?

Since the creation of the state of Israel, MENA countries have expulsed their Jewish population, and they've all found refuge in that state. Today, Israel, a West Asian country, with the largest share of its population originating from MENA, doesn't even participate in regional cultural events because of security issues. The soccer team plays in the Euros . Israelis sing in the Eurovision contest. Meanwhile, Lebanon and Jordan play in the Asian games.
The public in other middle eastern countries does not tolerate the presence of obviously Jewish folks in their public spaces. There was a lot of outrage in Saudi Arabia when a rabbi visited Riyad during the normalization talks between Israel and Saudi Arabia.

That's the situation today in that region of the world.

With the context above established and understood, am I supposed to believe that merging all the territorial entities within Mandatory Palestine will result in PEACE? Come on!

We know what's likely to happen, and pretending that the animosity between the two peoples runs one way is having blinders on (or being intentionally deceitful). We also know that all those Arabs and Mizrahi Jews carrying Israeli passports and speaking Hebrew will not be welcome in other MENA countries if they ever "went back to where their fathers came from."

I don't know how you can reach another conclusion.

As long as Zionism dies off and has no leverage in the region, I can see it get better between both communities. The underlying root is Zionism. Arab Jews used to live alongside others in the Middle East, until Zionism and establishment of Israel came along.

Also, as for the expulsion of Arab Jews from surrounding Arab countries, it wasn't mainly expulsion, and a multitude of factors, but again, roots of it were Zionism. They were used as a scapegoat to demographically engineer the Jewish population to become the majority by 1948 while simultaneously ethnically cleansing the Palestinians so they can create a Jewish majority ethnostate as envisioned. They were also used as cheap labour. They also then stripped these Arab Jews from their Arab-ness and coopted them unto Mizrahim/Israeli identity to the point they have become so racist and have a superiority complex to uphold the European Jewish/Ashkenazi/"whiteness" ideologies and systems.

Also, Arabs/Middle Easterners are very welcoming of Jews. They just do not like Zionists. Doesn't matter is you're Jewish or not. It is just like of being welcoming to white Christian folks as long as they are not white supremacists and racists.

Also, of course there is outrage for a rabbi to visit Saudi Arabia to normalize with Israel. Again, it's the conflation. Most Arabs/Middle Easteners have issues with Israel as a Zionist state, not Jews. Arab population do not want normalization with Israel's genocidal supremacist state.

There are many anti-Zionist Jews in pro-Palestinian advocacy circles and even they lead it. If it was the case that the problem is with Jews because they are Jews as antisemitism, then they wouldn't be allowed or accepted in these spaces at all.

 

[Belgium]

As long as Zionism dies off and has no leverage in the region, I can see it get better between both communities. The underlying root is Zionism. Arab Jews used to live alongside others in the Middle East, until Zionism and establishment of Israel came along.

Also, as for the expulsion of Arab Jews from surrounding Arab countries, it wasn't mainly expulsion, and a multitude of factors, but again, roots of it were Zionism. They were used as a scapegoat to demographically engineer the Jewish population to become the majority by 1948 while simultaneously ethnically cleansing the Palestinians so they can create a Jewish majority ethnostate as envisioned. They were also used as cheap labour. They also then stripped these Arab Jews from their Arab-ness and coopted them unto Mizrahim/Israeli identity to the point they have become so racist and have a superiority complex to uphold the European Jewish/Ashkenazi/"whiteness" ideologies and systems.

Also, Arabs/Middle Easterners are very welcoming of Jews. They just do not like Zionists. Doesn't matter is you're Jewish or not. It is just like of being welcoming to white Christian folks as long as they are not white supremacists and racists.

Also, of course there is outrage for a rabbi to visit Saudi Arabia to normalize with Israel. Again, it's the conflation. Most Arabs/Middle Easteners have issues with Israel as a Zionist state, not Jews. Arab population do not want normalization with Israel's genocidal supremacist state.

There are many anti-Zionist Jews in pro-Palestinian advocacy circles and even they lead it. If it was the case that the problem is with Jews because they are Jews as antisemitism, then they wouldn't be allowed or accepted in these spaces at all.

I think a one state solution is just a pipedream that largely ignores the local dynamics, the alliances in the region and the history of how Israel was established in the first place.
Israel obviously wants to wipe Palestinians off the map and control the entire territory. Hamas and its allies likewise wants to attack Israel, for obvious reasons. The leadership in Iran and Yemen have openly stated they want Israel wiped off the map as well.
Even if a one state solution was somehow possible in practice, there'd be instant war.

There would be absolutely no incentive for Israel to comply with a one state solution. Hamas' leadership in Qatar has also stated they want an independent Palestinian state, which would imply a two state solution if anything. Either way I doubt it'd take long for the conflict to spark back up even if there was a way to come to a two state solution.

Personally I think the Palestinians will get exterminated before we ever see a real agreement that tries to settle the conflict instead of going back to a semi-stalemate where Israel slowly continues to encroach on Palestinian territory. With the history of that conflict, the extreme difference in power dynamics and two populations that both hate eachother, ...
I don't see how anyone's gonna find an agreement that Israel and Palestinian leadership (currently Hamas) can agree to.

You can cut off the head of the snake (Netanyahu), but another head more or less like him will spawn in its place. I assume Netanyahu is probably one of the most extreme hardliners in the Israeli government but I strongly doubt he's the worst. Netanyahu is very cunning and the only thing that seems to hold him back at least to some extent is his intense focus on strengthening and maintaining Israel's political ties with its allies and regional countries. There are plenty of others in the Israeli government loudly urging for even more extreme measures that are too far even for a genocidal maniac like Netanyahu.

 

[gry60]

As long as Zionism dies off and has no leverage in the region, I can see it get better between both communities. The underlying root is Zionism. Arab Jews used to live alongside others in the Middle East, until Zionism and establishment of Israel came along. Also, as for the expulsion of Arab Jews from surrounding Arab countries, it wasn't mainly expulsion, and a multitude of factors, but again, roots of it were Zionism. They were used as a scapegoat to demographically engineer the Jewish population to become the majority by 1948 while simultaneously ethnically cleansing the Palestinians so they can create a Jewish majority ethnostate as envisioned.

It is true that Israeli policymakers did encourage Jews, legally and illegally, to move to Israel.

However, in the 1940-1950s, the Mossad did not orchestrate the Jewish exodus in every Middle Eastern country that had a sizeable Jewish population. Arab Jews were also expelled from Iran, Iraq, etc... as a reaction to the creation of the state of Israel. Most Arab states reacted in a way that strengthened the justification for the existence of Israel (everybody hates us, we need our own country). It would have been more difficult for Israeli secret services to engineer this mass emigration if more Arab states had openly opposed that Arab Jew emigration (Morocco did) and had actually taken measures to accommodate them.

Also, Arabs/Middle Easterners are very welcoming of Jews. They just do not like Zionists. Doesn't matter is you're Jewish or not. It is just like of being welcoming to white Christian folks as long as they are not white supremacists and racists.

Also, of course there is outrage for a rabbi to visit Saudi Arabia to normalize with Israel. Again, it's the conflation. Most Arabs/Middle Easteners have issues with Israel as a Zionist state, not Jews. Arab population do not want normalization with Israel's genocidal supremacist state.

I don't know about all of this. I wouldn't take the experience of individuals from warring groups in neutral land (say Arabs and Jews in the US, or Hutus and Tutsis in Belgium) and project that onto individuals of the same groups living in a land they are actually fighting over.
Immigration laws can tell you a great deal about the general perception that countries have for foreigners, and when it comes to travelling, Arab states do not allow Israelis to cross their borders, and they don't make differences between individuals from Israel or Israelis who represent their government. There are actually 6 countries that even ban non-Israeli travelers with Israeli visas from visiting; that means, a pro-Palestinian French Jew having recently visited Israel may not be allowed in Iran, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Syria, or Yemen.

Israeli passport - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I'm contrasting this with the US allowing Russians to travel, live, and work here as freely as they want as long as they do not represent or are tied to the Russian government.

There are many anti-Zionist Jews in pro-Palestinian advocacy circles and even they lead it. If it was the case that the problem is with Jews because they are Jews as antisemitism, then they wouldn't be allowed or accepted in these spaces at all.

They are not crazy, and they are fighting the good fight in my book.

But the reality is that they are a minority, and every act of random violence against Israelis, on the basis that the obstacle to Palestinian statehood is every single Israeli, decreases their numbers. You can see how insignificant the Israeli Left has become after the failure of the 2000's talks.

 

[Belgium]

I think we can all agree that Israel should have never been established as a country.
However what's done is done and with the military and especially political power Israel has amassed, any solution that involves dissolving Israel is a delusional pipedream. There's too many cooks in the kitchen for that to ever happen. There'd be better odds of Iran completing their nuclear program and nuking Israel.

A one-state solution sounds good in theory but any such proposal is dead on arrival. Israel has absolutely nothing to gain and much to lose from a one-state proposal.

 

[DLF]

This tweet is the epitome of the IsraeliS

 

[degenerate423]