Israel declares War - Destruction of Gaza / Growing conflict in Middle East

[Belgium]

Biden’s admin miscalculated that they can lose the Muslim vote and still be fine. The miscalculation was they weren’t expecting to lose so many other people. This “war” is only getting more unpopular.

People survived four years of trump before. And if they feel that not voting for Biden is the best long term strategy to change the US’s foreign policy that includes enabling genocide then I can’t blame them. I also can’t blame people if their conscience won’t allow them to vote for a genocide enabler, and if they feel that within the democratic process this is the best way to hold elected officials accountable. Instead I blame the immoral elected officials for allowing this to happen and for not listening to what their base wants. And for lying to and gaslighting their base and trying to manipulate them to go against their conscience and humanity and to be ok with what’s happening.

It's kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.
The 'lesser evil' argument has always struggled to convince people, and that'll only become more difficult the longer Biden's administration sticks to their position.
In theory it should be obvious from his track record, past statements, the people he surrounds himself with, ... that Trump's position on this is significantly worse than Biden.
However that's not how it tends to work out in practice.
"Vote for the guy who's gonna contribute less to the genocide" is the logical position but the argument sounds horrible.

I think what's currently happening in the primaries is the best way of going about it. In the general election, there's the risk of putting the Palestinians in 4 more years of an even worse position.

 

[flyeed]

It's kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.
The 'lesser evil' argument has always struggled to convince people, and that'll only become more difficult the longer Biden's administration sticks to their position.
In theory it should be obvious from his track record, past statements, the people he surrounds himself with, ... that Trump's position on this is significantly worse than Biden.
However that's not how it tends to work out in practice.
"Vote for the guy who's gonna contribute less to the genocide" is the logical position but the argument sounds horrible.

I think what's currently happening in the primaries is the best way of going about it. In the general election, there's the risk of putting the Palestinians in 4 more years of an even worse position.

As someone who had always been team lesser of the 2 evils and gotten into heated disagreements with apathetic/abstaining voters, especially when voting rights have been on the line, I understand now. At a certain point voting exceeds plain reason for people. There is still a human component and a moral component to it. And even then after one could make a rationale-based argument that when things really aren’t working a step or 2 back might be what’s needed to eventually make more progress down the line. Of course it’s risky, but people are willing to take that risk when they’re fed up with the status quo and think what they currently have is worth risking.

 

[DLF]

Don’t protest
Don’t hold politicians accountable
Don’t do anything

Do nothing dems. **** maybe the orange monkey was right?

 

[gry60]

Don’t protest
Don’t hold politicians accountable
Don’t do anything

Do nothing dems. **** maybe the orange monkey was right?

It's funny how he has escaped all the blame for a foreign policy in the Middle East that sidelined the Palestinian issue in favor of a rapprochement between Israel and its Arab neighbors.

Remember when his administration decided that the West Bank settlements weren't illegal after all?

Remember when Israel got bold enough to switch from the "land for peace" policy to the "peace for peace," thanks to the Abraham Accords?

Remember when he moved the US embassy to Jerusalem and recognized the entire city as the capital of Israel?

These are policies that have undermined the Palestinian cause far more than US military aid: they were a direct attack on Palestinian demands, and the man is getting ****ing praised by the very people who are suffering from the long-term consequences of his choices.

That's amazing

 

[DLF]

This whole “but Trump love Israhell just as much as Biden” isn’t really a good way to motivate people to vote for Biden.

Hell, bringing up Trump in response to saying you’re not voting for Biden is also flawed. I didn’t say I was voting for Trump, why you bringing him up? I said I wasn’t voting for Biden. It’s not my fault the system sucks. I refuse to play your system game.

I’m voting for West. Brother Cornell. **** Biden. **** trump.

 

[moderndarwin]

So is not attempting to negotiate what a majority of the country wants to support genocide.

Majority of Muslim and Jewish Democrats Favor a Permanent Ceasefire in Gaza | ISPU

This is the first in a series of brief analysis pieces, starting with a look at American faith and non-faith communities’ support for a permanent ceasefire in Gaza and where respondents place blame for the ongoing violence.

www.ispu.org

what exactly is Biden supposed to do? I’m not sure people really understand how the presidency or government works.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

this has to be one of the lamest arguments i see going around.
setting yourself on fire in a dictatorship is totally different from setting yourself on fire in a democracy,

Mohamed Bouazizi had no other options.

comparing it to an american living in a free country, with free speech, and ocean away from the conflict, is totally ridiculous,


its tragic, but the reality is Bushnell orphaned his children for no good reason, his death was a waste, and it will be forgotten in a month.
and the people trying to martyr him are deranged revolution cosplayers who deserve nothing but scorn.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

you negatively frame the following acts:

Houthi attackks
Hamas attacks
self-immolation of Bushnell.

Not sure what exactly you were thinking solutions were here? Your only suggestions seems to be criticizing Arab participation in this.

It’s almost as if anything that is actually changing the conversation about Palestine you are against, but yet you claim your against Israel’s actions.

can you belive that guy, negatively framing terrorism and pointless suicides??!

what a weirdo.

 

[DLF]

what exactly is Biden supposed to do? I’m not sure people really understand how the presidency or government works.

Presidents don’t matter now I guess

So then I guess Trump becoming president won’t matter huh

 

[Belgium]

This whole “but Trump love Israhell just as much as Biden” isn’t really a good way to motivate people to vote for Biden.

Hell, bringing up Trump in response to saying you’re not voting for Biden is also flawed. I didn’t say I was voting for Trump, why you bringing him up? I said I wasn’t voting for Biden. It’s not my fault the system sucks. I refuse to play your system game.

I’m voting for West. Brother Cornell. **** Biden. **** trump.

“I refuse to play your system game” is delusional. Abstaining or voting third party is participating in the system, just in the most ignorant and unproductive manner.

One could argue it is a cowardly and privileged position for someone over in a relatively safe country to close their eyes and ears and refuse to engage with the reality that one of these two people will be president either way.

I’m not gonna argue that’s a convincing argument, because no one likes to hear ‘well one of them is worse’ in the context of genocide.

 

[Belgium]

what exactly is Biden supposed to do? I’m not sure people really understand how the presidency or government works.

The presidency isn’t some magic wand obviously but there’s a lot of things Biden or Trump could do, good or bad.
Various forms of political pressure, attempts to rally allies, changing policy regarding arms deals, …

To be clear, anything moving towards a less staunch pro-Israel will face significant roadblocks from Congress, lobbying groups, … but it’s not like a president is powerless.

 

[Belgium]

It's funny how he has escaped all the blame for a foreign policy in the Middle East that sidelined the Palestinian issue in favor of a rapprochement between Israel and its Arab neighbors.

Remember when his administration decided that the West Bank settlements weren't illegal after all?

Remember when Israel got bold enough to switch from the "land for peace" policy to the "peace for peace," thanks to the Abraham Accords?

Remember when he moved the US embassy to Jerusalem and recognized the entire city as the capital of Israel?

These are policies that have undermined the Palestinian cause far more than US military aid: they were a direct attack on Palestinian demands, and the man is getting ****ing praised by the very people who are suffering from the long-term consequences of his choices.

That's amazing

Maybe he missed those parts.

I’m embarrassed to say I never really followed the news pre-October 7. I was semi aware of things but mostly went to cnn.com couple times a day and glanced at it.


Since October 7 I felt sick seeing the images and about a week into the conflict I started watching YouTube videos documentaries and speeches/debates on the topic almost as a way to cope with the sadness.

 

[onthenephs]

can you belive that guy, negatively framing terrorism and pointless suicides??!

what a weirdo.

O no!! poor victims!

 

[Belgium]

O no!! poor victims!

What’s this response supposed to mean?
Mocking violence against innocent civilians with no relation to the genocide? Mocking the deaths of civilians? Mocking the continual re-traumatization of Bushnell’s family and friends?


None of this mockery, which ironically displays zero empathy for innocent civilians, has to accompany supporting the Palestinians.

Maybe do some self-reflection and leave the empathy-free mockery to the pro-Israel scum who try to justify the genocide with similar language.

 

[onthenephs]

I posted that reply knowing exactly who would respond what.

can you tell me how many citizens houthis have killed in their mass terrorism campaign across the Red Sea? I heard it’s something like 40,000. Crazy terrorists.

Can you tell us if you talked to bushnells family? Did they tell you their son is a stain on their family? Did you actually hear his mom tell you he’s a terrorist sympathizer who gave his life for no reason? Crazy teen killing himself. Wth was he thinking.


Ahhhh yes now the the innocent Hamas affiliated terrrorists in Palestine?? They need to be killed and no one should try to think of other ways to stop this. It’s not worth it.

 

[Belgium]

I posted that reply knowing exactly who would respond what.

can you tell me how many citizens houthis have killed in their mass terrorism campaign across the Red Sea? I heard it’s something like 40,000. Crazy terrorists.

Can you tell us if you talked to bushnells family? Did they tell you their son is a stain on their family? Did you actually hear his mom tell you he’s a terrorist sympathizer who gave his life for no reason? Crazy teen killing himself. Wth was he thinking.


Ahhhh yes now the the innocent Hamas affiliated terrrorists in Palestine?? They need to be killed and no one should try to think of other ways to stop this. It’s not worth it.

What on earth are you rambling about? It’s like arguing with a child. No actual arguments, no reading comprehension, no critical thinking. Just baseless drivel.

Do any of the Houthis’ attacks on innocent civilians compare to Israel’s genocide? Of course not. Not even in the slightest.

Does Hamas’ killing of innocent civilians compare to Israel’s genocide? Of course not. Again not even in the slightest.

Same of course goes for the suicides (Bushnell wasn’t the first).

All of the civilian deaths and suffering put together from those 3 points can’t even begin to compare to the broad massacre Israel is committing.

It’s ridiculous that this apparently needs an elaboration. The inability and/or unwillingness to engage in basic reading comprehension is embarrassing. Instead you decide to just throw out childish temper tantrums filled with baseless and disingenous accusations/implications.


I think it’s important to maintain a level of empathy and not engage in gross victim olympics, where an innocent civilian’s death is now worthy of mockery because the pile of corpses he belongs to isn’t as massive as the other one.
I think that line of thinking is vile, reminiscent of the lack of empathy that fuels the pro-genocide scum, and it should not be associated with supporting the Palestinians.

 

[onthenephs]

How are they baseless arguments?

YOU made the claim and continue to point out the houthis are killing civilians and are 1. Hurting themselves and 2. Hurting the Palestinian cause , I’m asking you how many civilians have they killed?

You also claimed Hamas shouldn’t have planned Oct 7 as that also is not helping the Palestinian cause. I’m asking you what else could they have done??

You also claim bushnells family is orphaned and his parents are all sad and lonely, I’m asking you have you talked to his family?

O and wasn’t it also you who claimed the bds movement won’t work and isn’t hurting anyone but themselves??


I already told you earlier, you talk all this pro Palestine stuff but the way you keep making members in here argue about side topics, is very much similar to Israeli propaganda.

Especially since all you can offer to do is humanitarian aid on your campus…


I’m just waiting for you to also downplay hezb allah attacks and claim they are useless as well.


Here man, here is what sending more aid to Palestine will do:

 

[Belgium]

How are they baseless arguments?

YOU made the claim and continue to point out the houthis are killing civilians and are 1. Hurting themselves and 2. Hurting the Palestinian cause , I’m asking you how many civilians have they killed?

You immediately start off with a baseless strawman argument and expect to be taken seriously?
My statements regarding the Houthis specifically state indiscriminately "striking" or "targeting" innocent civilians. Not killing.
Examples I have previously cited have always used that specific language, because unlike you I don't just drool nonsense on my keyboard and call it a day.

In the very same post you quoted, note how the Houthis are described as "attacks", whereas Hamas is described as "killing."
Your question is a strawman based on an argument that was never made. I don't know if maybe you struggle with English or if this embarrassing display is the purely due to disingenously and impulsively making up non-existant inferences but that's not my problem.

You also claimed Hamas shouldn’t have planned Oct 7 as that also is not helping the Palestinian cause. I’m asking you what else could they have done??

As I mentioned earlier, October 7th is a natural consequence of Israel running a glorified concentration camp.
As I also previously stated, it's hard to say how this will play out. An attack like October 7th was bound to happen sooner or later, I don't think that was really avoidable.
If possible, military targets would have certainly been better from an optics perspective. As would a stronger focus on less brutality but more hostages.
Either way, what's done is done. I don't see anything wrong with negatively framing slaughtering civilians.

You also claim bushnells family is orphaned and his parents are all sad and lonely, I’m asking you have you talked to his family?

This is another blatant strawman argument. You're conveniently leaving Bushnell's friends out of the equation, as well as my statement presuming that he "presumably" or "likely" had at least someone around him who shares his views. Bushnell clearly had his heart in the right place, but now there's 1 less person to continue protesting and people are incentivizing more pointless suicides by cheering it on.

O and wasn’t it also you who claimed the bds movement won’t work and isn’t hurting anyone but themselves??

Ah, we've reached the phase where you're not even going to pretend like you aren't just making things up as you see fit.
Literally on this very same page I made a counter-argument against a claim from another poster who implied there's little to nothing the president could do. In that reply I cited various examples, and political pressure naturally includes things such as sanctions etc. Boycotts and sanctions do come with negatives of course but generally I think they are helpful tools.

The presidency isn’t some magic wand obviously but there’s a lot of things Biden or Trump could do, good or bad.
Various forms of political pressure, attempts to rally allies, changing policy regarding arms deals, …

To be clear, anything moving towards a less staunch pro-Israel will face significant roadblocks from Congress, lobbying groups, … but it’s not like a president is powerless.

I already told you earlier, you talk all this pro Palestine stuff but the way you keep making members in here argue about side topics, is very much similar to Israeli propaganda.

Especially since all you can offer to do is humanitarian aid on your campus…

And what exactly is it you do? Twiddle your thumbs and fabricating baseless accusations in a discussion thread?

I think at this point you've embarrassed yourself enough.
"The way you talk all..." bla bla bla. As I've stated before, it is not my job to cater to a petulant child with the reading capacity of a 5th grader. Or a grown man cosplaying as such.

 

[onthenephs]

Aite man let’s move on. I’m not here to argue with you.

I will tell you my father was in the army in the 73 war against Israel. So what I do, what my family does, and what I was raised in- is certainly more than twiddling my thumbs.

 

[Belgium]

Aite man let’s move on. I’m not here to argue with you.

I will tell you my father was in the army in the 73 war against Israel. So what I do, what my family does, and what I was raised in- is certainly more than twiddling my thumbs.

Well regardless of the arguments, I think at the end of the day we're on the same page when it comes to supporting the Palestinians and condemning the Israeli genocide.

 

[flyeed]

Chaotic incident = genocidal massacre

 

[DLF]

Chaotic incident = genocidal massacre

lol literally came in here to POST this exact thing

“Incident”

lol at least they are covering it. That’s maybe a positive??

In before people come in here and say “what? shooting is an incident. Here’s a dictionary definition…”

 

[DripNick]

"Chaotic incident" is INSANE

 

[mplsdunk]

imagine calling the Vegas shooting a chaotic incident

 

[Belgium]

And their pathetic excuse is that supposedly they were being "approached in a threatening manner"