Jay-z wouldn't have had a career if Biggie and Pac didn't die - snoop
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you can see it, duece king on a LL cool J tangent doing anything to save face
reasonable doubt better then its dark and hell is hot? lulz
might as well say vol.1 is better then get rich or die tryin' so we can just sew this thread up right
Man I really am happy to see X get so much love.
It's Dark and hell is hit is one of my favorite albums period. That album was just raw from being to end... And back in that day X was killing everybody he did a track with IMO including jay. He just had the energy to take over like it was nothing
gllahone84
Banned
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this clown still mad at me because I insulted Batman.
Get over it guy.
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fareal thread went off the rails like page 5
That.
since its already off track...somehow nobody mentioned who was really running mainstream rap 97-98.
"All we hear is platinum that platinum this/but aint nobody got no platinum hits"
killa07
Banned
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Nobody is mad just telling you how I feel guy
Get over it guy.
Just like you have the right to leave a dumb post in a thread that you don't care about
I have the right to come at your neck for
a rebuttal on you taking up post space in a thread people are talking about something they feel passionate about
Enjoy your porn Friday and don't forget your napkins
Done with you Guy
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jay-z..as big as PAC?! when pac was breathing and walking on earth?!
da jay-z wasn't even as big as Ma$e until 1998, and even THEN he was STILL playing second fiddle to DMX
i dont even like pac like that, but to say jay-z was on ANY LEVEL seeing eye to eye with pac is delusional revisited history.
c'mon b...
jay-z barely went 1x plat da same year this **** went went like 7x plat
truth! I grew up during this era and time period. Ma$e and DMX were bigger than Jay-Z at the time. Maybe even big pun now that I think about it. But seriously NO WAY was Jay-Z as big as PAC at this time.
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Dudes really said it's dark and hell is hot is better than reasonable doubt........ NT logic once again
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theyre obviously doing ANYTHING to discredit jay...
dude JUST said hov sold 1x plat while pac went 7x plat as an example of him not eating...
but when i use THAT SAME argument with nasir jones illmatic only doing 500k while BIG, warren g, bone thugs going 3-5 times platinum then it doesnt add up..lol..what part of the game is that??
yall using hypotheticals to discredit the undisputed champion...changing the argument every few pages...from big and pac to dmx now murda ma$e....no matter who you put hov against he can go bar for bar,song for song...no matter who you put jay against he eventually surpassed them...
only on NT can some hypothetical what if type thread go a dozen pages...only on NT can it be 'obvious' to the masses that this make believe thing had a profound effect on real life...we talking bout what ifs...not real life, not real rap..we talking about what ifs!!!
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Just look at some of the rappers some of you dudes are using for example, DMX.......and now Mase
. All of whom had a good 1-2 year run and that was about it. Only to get surpassed and lapped by Jay Z. Mase had one of the most shortened solo rap careers ever. He got hot, couldn't handle the pressure, got scared and got ran out of New York only to become a deacon at Eddie Long's church in Atlanta if I'm not mistaken. Matter of fact, didn't he get indicted with Bishop Eddie Long as well for touching young boys?? We have to ask our ATL brethren to get back to us with an update on that.
DMX these days, well he does a mean karaoke on Celebrity Rehab. That is what his life has become. Got to do something to pass the time away in the house with all the other addicts. As for Big Pun, he literally ate himself to death on some Jabba the Hut type steez. He obviously didn't care about his career or maintaining his legacy so why should we. Alot of rappers have came and went, and those are just some to name a few, and Jay Z still remains. Quite telling if you ask me.
DMX these days, well he does a mean karaoke on Celebrity Rehab. That is what his life has become. Got to do something to pass the time away in the house with all the other addicts. As for Big Pun, he literally ate himself to death on some Jabba the Hut type steez. He obviously didn't care about his career or maintaining his legacy so why should we. Alot of rappers have came and went, and those are just some to name a few, and Jay Z still remains. Quite telling if you ask me.
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Biggie and Pac's deaths had a HUGE impact on the landscape of Black music.
Ya'll really tryna act like that's not true, though.
Ya'll really tryna act like that's not true, though.
antidope
Supporter
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Always gotta be the weakest ***** out the crew
I'll probably make more money off your album that you
You see the respect I get every time I come through
Check your own videos you'll always be number two.
I'll probably make more money off your album that you
You see the respect I get every time I come through
Check your own videos you'll always be number two.
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The only reason these orher cats were brought up was to prove that Jay wasn't running things at a certain time period.
Some cat said Jay had the crown from 97 on, not true that was Mase's year. Another dude said Jay had **** on lock from 98-99 on, again not true those were X's years.
What those rappers have become or their longevity has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Just a other way for Jay stans to kick up dust.
Some cat said Jay had the crown from 97 on, not true that was Mase's year. Another dude said Jay had **** on lock from 98-99 on, again not true those were X's years.
What those rappers have become or their longevity has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Just a other way for Jay stans to kick up dust.
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I think it shows that even though Jay wasn't the top dog during any of those periods, he still managed to get to his status today. Same could be applied to the Big and Pac theory. They could still be alive, have been at the top during those periods, and just as easily fallen off while Jay would still be where he is now.
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When you say "had the crown" what exactly are you referring to? The crown being "the hottest rapper in the game", "the best rapper in the game", or "the King of New York"??
Actually it does, it goes to show that even some of the best or biggest rappers in the game have fallen off. There's no way to say whether or not Biggie or Pac would have or wouldn't have fallen off. With that being said there's no way to say if either were still around that Jay wouldn't have had a career, which is how and why this argument/debate/thread began in the first place.
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Hip Hop became more popular after the deaths of both Pac and Biggie, not saying it was better (that's debatable).
What you mean Mase had 97? I would say Bad Boy team had the game locked in 97. Can't just give it to Mase.
Biggie "Life After Death" sold 10 Million
Puff's "No Way Out" sold 7 Million
Mase "Harlem World" sold 4 Million
All I said after Jay-Z dropped Vol 2...Hard Knock Life, he was as big as Pac and Biggie before their deaths, and that is debatable, like I wrote before, the RAP Game and the Culture even grew larger after Pac and Biggs death.
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The reason we cannot have these kinds of debates is because dudes can never see past who they believed the "better rapper" was. Everyone has their preference and that’s pretty much what they stick to. If we are talking about who was the bigger name at the time, then of course, we would have to look at album sales, tours, tv appearances, notability, etc. All that mainstream stuff that hip-hop fans secretly hate. Yes Snoop Dogg was bigger name at one point and time than Jay-z. Jay-Z was at the low end of the totem pole when compared to other artists for a while. Now these other artists might not have been as lyrical or respected as a rapper than Jay, but on a grand stage, they were def a bigger act. What Snoop said is totally feasible and no different from what many other artists have said in the past.
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Let's talk about your logic....in the sense that there is no logic at all in one person's opinion vs. another in terms of which album was "better".
So even using the term "logic" in this scenario is ridiculous. And "logic" is not concrete anyway. 2 people don't always see eye to eye on what is logical.
That education aside....
Do I personally like Reasonable Doubt more? Sure do.
Do I think Reasonable Doubt was as "big" as It's Dark And Hell Is Hot upon release? No ******g way. And that's not even debatable to me. I lived it and saw it with my own eyes. I'm not sure everyone else in here did.
This is kind of a silly comparison anyway. RD came out in 96. X's album in 98. It's Dark vs. Hard Knock Life would be a better comparison really.....
I don't know what anyone else is saying, but that's been my point the whole time. Jay was not really THAT DUDE in the mid-late 90's like he is today.
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Absolutely. It's no small feat to accomplish a 20 year career in music let alone rap.
I did mean KONY. That's what the dicussion shifted to at that point.
Just like there's no way to say he would be as big as he is if they were around. You want ppl to accept your side of the coin, but you cant even consider the other.
I specifically said Mase cause after BIG died he was the poster boy for Bad Boy. Was it all him, no. But he was the face they were pushing.
That's all!
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1) He didn't state hottest he said it's dark and hell is hot was a better album than reasonable doubt the general consensus wouldn't agree with that.
2) This whole thread is using a two year sample (In which said artist dropped a universally recognized classic album) to measure if someones career would have taken off the same way and passing on their opinion as FACT. The whole entire thread it's cats hating on jay on a hypothetical level
. The FACT of the matter is Pac & Big Died, & from the new millennium on Jay had the crown and hasn't relinquished it yet.
And as far as Jay not being that dude coming into the mid to late 90's, Yea he wasn't the premier DOMINANT figure like he is today but dudes are making it out to seem like he was some 2nd tier undercard cat.
Once streets is watchin came out along with vol 1. Jay was considered among the best. 98 on he was head to head with anybody in the rap. Ma$e got ran outta rap and gave the world that trash known as "Double Up" X was still burning up the charts but that third album receive near the critical praise his first two did & Him & Jay were neck and neck until about 2000 when HOV took that spot and lapped all the others mentioned in his lane.
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Ah, "hating". The young person's term for a contradictory opinion. I don't even understand how people saying Jay wasn't as big once as he is now, or that he may not have been without certain circumstances, is considered "hating". Cam and Nas calling him "ugly" is hating. Nothing I've read in here is.
It's incredible how much that term has been bastardized from it's original meaning. Nothing makes me laugh more than lame dudes and females talking about their "haters". But that's another digression entirely.....
I don't know who "he" is. You used the term logic. Logic has nothing to do with this discussion at all. That was my point and you seem to have missed that.
If by "general consensus" you mean Jay Z fans vs. DMX fans arguing in 2013, then I guess.....and again, this is coming from a guy who likes Reasonable Doubt more.
But I don't know who made the determination that a "general consensus" that RD is "better" than IDAHIH has been issued.
The only FACT in anything you've stated is that Pac & BIG died.
How is it that the definition of "fact" and "logic" eludes so many of you?
It's incredible how much that term has been bastardized from it's original meaning. Nothing makes me laugh more than lame dudes and females talking about their "haters". But that's another digression entirely.....
I don't know who "he" is. You used the term logic. Logic has nothing to do with this discussion at all. That was my point and you seem to have missed that.
If by "general consensus" you mean Jay Z fans vs. DMX fans arguing in 2013, then I guess.....and again, this is coming from a guy who likes Reasonable Doubt more.
But I don't know who made the determination that a "general consensus" that RD is "better" than IDAHIH has been issued.
The only FACT in anything you've stated is that Pac & BIG died.
How is it that the definition of "fact" and "logic" eludes so many of you?
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This is like the third thread you've tried to compare Illmatic's impact to Reasonable Doubt's when they dropped, just stop while your behind, it's not even close.
antidope
Supporter
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Que? It wasnt a point or anything, it was just relevant. I havent taken this thread seriously since it started, theres no point.
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Last point. Some will say...."The FACT of the matter is Pac & Big Died, & from the new millennium on Jay had the crown and hasn't relinquished it yet."
BIG died in 97. Vol 1 came out in 97 with Jay getting clowned for "Sunshine" and, at least around my way, "City Is Mine".
Even though that album had real bangers that wound up erasing all of that, leading up to "Streets Is Watching" (the movie) being released in 98.
Then in 98, Hard Knock Life obviously knocked him out the park. And Vol 3 was massive. But DMX was still HUGE at the time because he was that new "hot" street dude. Ill singles. Ill features.
Yet, in 2000-2001, Jay was locking horns in a battle with Nas that a lot of people think Nas roasted him in. And people legit questioning who was top dog in NY.
And if memory serves, a Hot 97 poll had people saying Nas, who supposedly wasn't as big as Jay, won that "battle".
Was Jay the more successful commercial artist? Absolutely. Was it clear that he was making better music? No. Because again, the latter is all opinion.
Jay dropped The Blueprint, Nas dropped Stillmatic. Both incredible albums. Nas then dropped The Lost Tapes and God's Son, both of which were dope. While I wouldn't say Blueprint 2 is anywhere near one of Jay's best.
So again, Jay having this imaginary "crown" and when exactly that happened isn't as cut and dry as it seems.
BIG died in 97. Vol 1 came out in 97 with Jay getting clowned for "Sunshine" and, at least around my way, "City Is Mine".
Even though that album had real bangers that wound up erasing all of that, leading up to "Streets Is Watching" (the movie) being released in 98.
Then in 98, Hard Knock Life obviously knocked him out the park. And Vol 3 was massive. But DMX was still HUGE at the time because he was that new "hot" street dude. Ill singles. Ill features.
Yet, in 2000-2001, Jay was locking horns in a battle with Nas that a lot of people think Nas roasted him in. And people legit questioning who was top dog in NY.
And if memory serves, a Hot 97 poll had people saying Nas, who supposedly wasn't as big as Jay, won that "battle".
Was Jay the more successful commercial artist? Absolutely. Was it clear that he was making better music? No. Because again, the latter is all opinion.
Jay dropped The Blueprint, Nas dropped Stillmatic. Both incredible albums. Nas then dropped The Lost Tapes and God's Son, both of which were dope. While I wouldn't say Blueprint 2 is anywhere near one of Jay's best.
So again, Jay having this imaginary "crown" and when exactly that happened isn't as cut and dry as it seems.
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