Jay-z wouldn't have had a career if Biggie and Pac didn't die - snoop

[deuce king]

Actually it does, it goes to show that even some of the best or biggest rappers in the game have fallen off. There's no way to say whether or not Biggie or Pac would have or wouldn't have fallen off. With that being said there's no way to say if either were still around that Jay wouldn't have had a career, which is how and why this argument/debate/thread began in the first place.

Just like there's no way to say he would be as big as he is if they were around. You want ppl to accept your side of the coin, but you cant even consider the other.
 

I already have though champ.  Please read comment #147 in this very thread on page #5, which is unedited by the way.  I will also post it here below......................

It's truly unfortunate and sad that both Biggie and Tupac were killed, but life goes on and so does rap music.   With that being said it truly foolish for anyone to say that Jay Z wouldn't have had a career if Biggie and Tupac were alive as we will NEVER know or wouldn't be where he is at in the rap game now.  Just like it's foolish for anyone to say that Jay Z would be where he is at in the rap game if Biggie and Tupac were alive as we will NEVER know.

I did mean KONY. That's what the dicussion shifted to at that point.

Gotcha. 

 

[ninjahood]

The only reason these orher cats were brought up was to prove that Jay wasn't running things at a certain time period.

Some cat said Jay had the crown from 97 on, not true that was Mase's year. Another dude said Jay had **** on lock from 98-99 on, again not true those were X's years.

What those rappers have become or their longevity has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Just a other way for Jay stans to kick up dust.

this...thats da ONLY reason we bring it up.

im still that some of ya think reasonable doubt is better then its dark and hell is hot.

you can put both those albums on any metric (sales, lyrics, cultural impact, singles,etc) and DMX's first

album will tidal wave over it.

 

[x Buddha Bless x]

this clown still mad at me because I insulted Batman.


Get over it guy.

Dude is bringing his sodium filled posts about Ironman in every sub forum

So lame.

 

[ninjahood]

Dudes really said it's dark and hell is hot is better than reasonable doubt........ NT logic once again

Let's talk about your logic....in the sense that there is no logic at all in one person's opinion vs. another in terms of which album was "better".

So even using the term "logic" in this scenario is ridiculous. And "logic" is not concrete anyway. 2 people don't always see eye to eye on what is logical.

That education aside....

Do I personally like Reasonable Doubt more? Sure do.

Do I think Reasonable Doubt was as "big" as It's Dark And Hell Is Hot upon release? No ******g way. And that's not even debatable to me. I lived it and saw it with my own eyes. I'm not sure everyone else in here did.

This is kind of a silly comparison anyway. RD came out in 96. X's album in 98. It's Dark vs. Hard Knock Life would be a better comparison really.....

I don't know what anyone else is saying, but that's been my point the whole time. Jay was not really THAT DUDE in the mid-late 90's like he is today.

thats what i BEEEEN saying...on both accounts.

there seems to be a notion that i hate jay-z, far from it, i got all his albums cuz i respect his craft, but i was NEVER

a jay-z stan, so when i criticized his music it was removed with any kind of bias..alot of jay-z stans CANT EVEN

NAME HIS FAULTS..how you got a favorite rapper and you can't name his weaknesses? im a Nas fan and i can

tell you every one of his weaknesses off da top of my head, cuz as someone that loves da music you gotta keep

it all da way G, or you just being a fraud.

 

[ninjahood]

Last point. Some will say...."The FACT of the matter is Pac & Big Died, & from the new millennium on Jay had the crown and hasn't relinquished it yet."

BIG died in 97. Vol 1 came out in 97 with Jay getting clowned for "Sunshine" and, at least around my way, "City Is Mine".

Even though that album had real bangers that wound up erasing all of that, leading up to "Streets Is Watching" (the movie) being released in 98.

Then in 98, Hard Knock Life obviously knocked him out the park. And Vol 3 was massive. But DMX was still HUGE at the time because he was that new "hot" street dude. Ill singles. Ill features.

Yet, in 2000-2001, Jay was locking horns in a battle with Nas that a lot of people think Nas roasted him in. And people legit questioning who was top dog in NY.

And if memory serves, a Hot 97 poll had people saying Nas, who supposedly wasn't as big as Jay, won that "battle".

Was Jay the more successful commercial artist? Absolutely. Was it clear that he was making better music? No. Because again, the latter is all opinion.

Jay dropped The Blueprint, Nas dropped Stillmatic. Both incredible albums. Nas then dropped The Lost Tapes and God's Son, both of which were dope. While I wouldn't say Blueprint 2 is anywhere near one of Jay's best.

So again, Jay having this imaginary "crown" and when exactly that happened isn't as cut and dry as it seems.

all this is 100%

jay-z- aint get that "crown" till da black album, blueprint 2 SUCKED and Nas had lost tapes and stillmatic out which

STILL are classics.

 

[mossman1975]

this...thats da ONLY reason we bring it up.

im still that some of ya think reasonable doubt is better then its dark and hell is hot.

you can put both those albums on any metric (sales, lyrics, cultural impact, singles,etc) and DMX's first

album will tidal wave over it.

Only thing Is dark and hell is hot has over reasonable doubt is sales & cultural impact

Reasonable doubt had better singles

Lyrically by far better

Better production

Just a overall better album point blank

 

[killa07]

Dude is bringing his sodium filled posts about Ironman in every sub forum

So lame.

Ah yes I knew his booty brother would come out the wood work
I guess wonder twins activate huh???
Lol... I bet u ninjas play "Thinkin Bout You"
When I post so you two can come to each others defense like war machine and ironman
I see what it is you two " secret" lovers, it's okay, lol, sorry to clog up thread but glad to see you two holding hands

 

[illphillip]

Only thing Is dark and hell is hot has over reasonable doubt is sales & cultural impact


Reasonable doubt had better singles
Lyrically by far better
Better production
  


Just a overall better album point blank

Lyrically better, I agree. Better production, I agree.

Better singles? I'm not so sure. "Get At Me Dog" was a MONSTER. "Ruff Ryders Anthem" also.

"Get At Me Dog" was ultimately the reason that album was as massive as it was.

"How It Goin' Down" was a cool R+B flavor record. I didn't really care for "Stop Being Greedy" personally but it was still a big record.

"N***** Done Started Somethin'" was also a beast if memory serves.

"Ain't No N****" was obviously HUGE. "Can't Knock...." was a dope record and BIG record with Mary on the hook (Fools Paradise remix is a personal favorite as well) and "Dead Presidents" and "Feelin' It" were dope, but I'm not sure that cumulatively, they were better than X's singles.

And ultimately, I'm personally arguing cultural impact in their moment, which IDAHIH got.

 

[prez t]

its amazing , the short term memory loss we have as a society today

out of curiosity -- how many people arguing back and forth in this thread actually lived in the tri-state area during the years in question ?

 

[jthagreat]

Out of curiosity, who is the KONY now?

 

[gllahone84]

^ good question. 

 

[gllahone84]

It's like the little guys coming up lost touch with what NY music was about. The south never lost touch with the southern sound. 

 

[ninjahood]

this...thats da ONLY reason we bring it up.

im still that some of ya think reasonable doubt is better then its dark and hell is hot.

you can put both those albums on any metric (sales, lyrics, cultural impact, singles,etc) and DMX's first

album will tidal wave over it.

Only thing Is dark and hell is hot has over reasonable doubt is sales & cultural impact

Reasonable doubt had better singles

Lyrically by far better

Better production

  

Just a overall better album point blank

not sure if serious....

get at me dog?

ruff ryders athem??

how's it going down?

stop being greedy?

with dame grease and swizz beatz in their PRIME? nah b..

there's a reason DMX's album had a greater cultural impact, cuz it was something

that was so ILL it rocked da rap landscape...you can' do that having a inferior album.

lyrically da jay-z album is a tad bit better, but da DMX is no slouch...prayer?

****** done started something? pssh...that whole album front to back is a masterpiece.

 

[ninjahood]

all this is 100%

jay-z- aint get that "crown" till da black album, blueprint 2 SUCKED and Nas had lost tapes and stillmatic out which

STILL are classics.

Jay-z got the crown on streets is watching! Erbody knew he was the king then.

Being the king was never ever strictly about numbers, back then dudes still respected the rhyme...igf it was purely off of number then diddy must have been the king of new york?

Nas had it in 96, mase 97, DMX 98,

jay-z wan't undisputed till 2003

 

[GL Rayner]

I love X's 1st album, but folks are really debating if its better than Reasonable Doubt . What weaknesses did that album have .

 

[send one]

Jay-z had sold out shows of the strength of that album:

You talking about now or back then?

 

[gllahone84]

Yes Nas in 96. Dude pushed 2 mil and reigned on the charts that summer.

Y'all really are making Jay out to be this god MC which he himself had to proclaim. The self proclaimed god MC.

It's no different than when TI said he was the king of the south, he just took the Jay route and starting referring to himself as some **** that was clearly fabricated.

If you were listening to rap back then X dominated, he was a Titan in the game. Jay Z was doing songs like Diamonds when X was making actual hot **** with Swizz. Why you think Jay still working with Swizz? Or rather why is Swizz Beats even a household name? DMX stupid.

Money, Cash, **** is a product of DMX. Nothing more, nothing less.

I can tell who was really up on the music back then.

 

[ninjahood]

Gee i wonder what album j**** my ***** is on

 

[gllahone84]

^ You think THAT's ******g with the heat X had in 98? Whatever Jay was doing in 98 couldn't light a candle to X.

Dudes in here making up stories and ****, and I lived it. Cause X dominated and brought it back from the glitz and glamour.

Remember the video for...I'm burning and can't really remember the name but the lights were flickering in the club and he was blacking out...Hype directed it. If somebody could upload that video to show these dudes because Jay was the worse...remember the video with Foxy and he standing there mad stiff with a suit or some ****.

Stop with the fabrication. Please because you actually have people on this board who lived through that era. We were young but rap city, the source, and a few other outlets were all you needed to know what was hot. X killed it all, and lets not pull up the articles highlighting the numbers he pushed. It was major not only for hip hop but the music business in general. No one had seen an artist drop albums like x and crush the charts.

It's a reason why he was a big time movie star. You dudes are hilarious.

 

[GL Rayner]

Let's just act like that song was not one of the standouts on that compilation .

 

[illphillip]

Being the king was never ever strictly about numbers, back then dudes still respected the rhyme...

Exactly why Nas was always a contender.

Of course we had to have a new jack jump in out the blue! HA!

 

[illphillip]

jay-z catalogue>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.x

You're missing the point entirely.

We covered that and I don't think anyone disagreed.

Go back and read the thread before you pop off please.

Yes Nas in 96. Dude pushed 2 mil and reigned on the charts that summer.

Y'all really are making Jay out to be this god MC which he himself had to proclaim. The self proclaimed god MC.

It's no different than when TI said he was the king of the south, he just took the Jay route and starting referring to himself as some **** that was clearly fabricated.

If you were listening to rap back then X dominated, he was a Titan in the game. Jay Z was doing songs like Diamonds when X was making actual hot **** with Swizz. Why you think Jay still working with Swizz? Or rather why is Swizz Beats even a household name? DMX stupid.

Money, Cash, **** is a product of DMX. Nothing more, nothing less.

I can tell who was really up on the music back then.

Bolded and enlarged for emphasis.

 

[illphillip]

Again, you're missing the point entirely.

You joined today and jumped into something too late.

So once again....Go back and read the thread before you pop off please.

Someone already tried a Jordan comparison. It didn't work then either.

 

[illphillip]

nas and his kuffi raps 

I know, right? The nerve of that dude being as intelligent and thought provoking as he is.

I can see how that wouldn't work for you.

 

[gllahone84]

Man Jay ain't benn hot for no damn 15 straight years...if that's what this is about then I'm just not high enough. But I'm close, and I still know better.