John Salley On Michael Jordan! "He's Not The Greatest Player Ever"

[iamyourfather]

so are people basing this on number of championships or most points scored or most dominating offensively? which one is it?
cause based on those 3, MJ is not the greatest.
Russell 11 rings
Kareem most points
Wilt most dominating offensively
i just wanna hear why people think he is the GOAT.. im not saying jordan is not great.. but you're also comparing centers with guard and forwards.

are you serious right now... bill russell played with nothing but hall of famers to start.. second, i hav eno respect for any of those weak *** players from the 1950s.. george mikan, russell.. wilt... dudes are on acid if they're thinking those anorexic scrubs who played against even weaker no-skill, unathletic white dudes wouldn't get bodied by shaq diesel or humiliated by hakeem in the 90s... all those 50s players are overrated.. the logo jerry west.. havlicec.. russell, wilt... 

all these dudes are like babe ruth to me... putting up ******ed numbers because the level of competition and the skill of everyone at the time was so garbage... u had babe ruth hitting more home runs than entire teams at the time.. does that mean that fat pig was a better baseball player than willie mays.. or ken griffey in his prime.. nah.. and the same applies to these old scrubs.

secondly, all these dudes u listed lost in the finals. if they're so great, why'd they lose.. bill russell played with at least 2-3 other "hall of famers".. and still lost

wilt only won ONE championship. 

titles alone isnt what makes jordan the goat... everything he did makes him the goat. the numbers, 100% winning percentage in the finals, the hall of famers who he destroyed in the finals. 

its not just his scoring stats, its his defense.. and dudes wana hype up lebrons defense.. jordan was the first player in nba history to get >200 steals and >100 blocks in a season, win defensive player of the year AND scoring champion, when he scored 37ppg on almost 50% shooting. 

which one of those dudes in ur quote has that on their resume

kareem scored 3948394839483 points in how many seasons? dude was drafted in 69 and retired in 89.. 20 freakin years.. jordan took off almost 3 years between his rookie season and 1998, and by then he had close to 30k points.. in what, 11 seasons?

TL;DR:  jordan >>>>>

 

[shoeking2101]

@shoeking gotta be the dumbest mf alive Jordan didn't create for his teammates ok you got it, it's kids like u that watch sportscenter everyday and get brain washed by the hype if you knew any better or watched Mike actually play you **** you sound like you just went through puberty he's not in MJ league simple as that Magic Bird fine but Lebron is no where near played 9 yrs in the league and you talking like you on bath salts or whatever you smoking on talking crazy who cares how a complete ball player he is we obviously saw how long it took him to finally get it done and then went championship chasing to join 2 other all stars *****!

I never said Jordan didn't create for his teammates man and the fact that you said Lebron is nowhere near Jordan...see, this is exactly why Its no fun in debating. HOW CAN YOU WATCH LEBRON and say he's NOWHERE NEAR JORDAN?

And then you bring up how long it took Lebron to get one completely ignoring how long it took for Jordan to win one, I give up

Really? like I said, whatever you win G.

 

[shoeking2101]

I think I just saw that Kobe Prime>Lebron prime...

Can't be srs...can't be. And this isn't no prisoner in the moment stuff. Like I've said before, at the end of the day, I personally (And I would like to believe that I'm a pretty adamant NBA Connoisseur) have never seen a player who affects the game the way Lebron does. Will he win 5 more rings, 5 more scoring titles and all that? Who knows, he's only 9 seasons in. Will he be a big time winner beyond this past season? Who knows, but for me that isn't what this discussion about. Has he lost in the finals? Sure, has he fumbled in crunch time? Sure, but so have a bunch of other really great basketball players. But again, that is not what i'm talking about.

In my honest opinion, from a strictly Basketball player perspective, he's one of the greatest if not the greatest Basketball player we've seen. I thought that wasn't debatable, but I guess I was wrong. Let the future tell it.

 

[untouchable jc]

can't be the g.o.a.t if you lost in the finals
magic
bird
diesel
kobe
lebron
wilt
russell
isaiah
kareem
oscar robertson

all took L's in the finals

never actually saw it this way. good point, sir. so yes, MJ >>>

 

[memo]

I hate how people say Jordan makes players play better as if Phil Jackson wasn't their coach and MJ wasn't a ball hog.

Jordan had great players on his team when he won championships too, it's not just Kobe or Lebron.

 “He actually carried them all the way through the playoffs,” Bird told Jackie MacMullen in an ESPN interview. “If you go back to the beginning of the playoffs, has anyone ever had a better run? It’d seem like you’d have a bad game once in awhile. He never did have a bad game. He was so focused. You just saw his confidence build and build and build. He should go down in history as one of the top players and maybe he can get close to Michael (Jordan).”

from Larry Bird

 

[shoeking2101]

I hate how people say Jordan makes players play better as if Phil Jackson wasn't their coach and MJ wasn't a ball hog.

Jordan had great players on his team when he won championships too, it's not just Kobe or Lebron.


from Larry Bird

Even the legends know what I'm talking about...

 

[iamyourfather]

I think I just saw that Kobe Prime>Lebron prime...

Can't be srs...can't be. And this isn't no prisoner in the moment stuff. Like I've said before, at the end of the day, I personally (And I would like to believe that I'm a pretty adamant NBA Connoisseur) have never seen a player who affects the game the way Lebron does. Will he win 5 more rings, 5 more scoring titles and all that? Who knows, he's only 9 seasons in. Will he be a big time winner beyond this past season? Who knows, but for me that isn't what this discussion about. Has he lost in the finals? Sure, has he fumbled in crunch time? Sure, but so have a bunch of other really great basketball players. But again, that is not what i'm talking about.
In my honest opinion, from a strictly Basketball player perspective, he's one of the greatest if not the greatest Basketball player we've seen. I thought that wasn't debatable, but I guess I was wrong. Let the future tell it.

how are you calling yourself a bball connoisseur saying stuff like you've never seen a player who affects the game like lebron does. 

unless you're 16 or somethin

lebron hasnt even won a dpoy award.. never been steals leader, never had over 100 blocks, never had over 200 stls in a season.. 

i'm sitting here telling anyone who hypes up lebrons defense... check the stats kids

jordan's first 4 seasons in the nba, here are his block totals: 69, 21(broken foot/shortened season), 125, 131

lebron: 58, 52, 66, 55,

and here are kobe's, just for fun: 23, 40, 50, 62

jordan's first 4 seasons, steals per season: 196, 37 (broken foot season), 236, 259

lebron: 130, 177, 123, 125

kobe: 49, 74, 72, 106

jordan's defense >>>>>>>>

jordan = goat

jordan scored more than both too, and the proficiency at which he did it isnt even close. 

 

[shoeking2101]

how are you calling yourself a bball connoisseur saying stuff like you've never seen a player who affects the game like lebron does. 
unless you're 16 or somethin

lebron hasnt even won a dpoy award.. never been steals leader, never had over 100 blocks, never had over 200 stls in a season.. 

i'm sitting here telling anyone who hypes up lebrons defense... check the stats kids


jordan's first 4 seasons in the nba, here are his block totals: 69, 21(broken foot/shortened season), 125, 131
lebron: 58, 52, 66, 55,
and here are kobe's, just for fun: 23, 40, 50, 62

jordan's first 4 seasons, steals per season: 196, 37 (broken foot season), 236, 259
lebron: 130, 177, 123, 125
kobe: 49, 74, 72, 106


jordan's defense >>>>>>>>

jordan = goat




jordan scored more than both too, and the proficiency at which he did it isnt even close. 

You're missing my point. I'm literally talking about the Basketball player, look at Lebron as a basketball player, no stats, no career achievements, just the player...But whatever, you win G

 

[iamyourfather]

and how do you lebron fans like these stats, from "prime lebron" against the softest team to appear in the nba finals history since the 06 mavs lol

17.8ppg, 7.2 reb, 6.8 ast, in the finals, the game's biggest stage. pathetic.. points per game DOWN 8.9 points from the regular season, rebounds and assist averages both down as well

but that's whose apparently closing the gap on the goat right.. 

 

[iamyourfather]

You're missing my point. I'm literally talking about the Basketball player, look at Lebron as a basketball player, no stats, no career achievements, just the player...But whatever, you win G

yea... im missing your point talking about look at a man as  a BASKETBALL PLAYER but ignore his stats

 

[shoeking2101]

yea... im missing your point talking about look at a man as  a BASKETBALL PLAYER but ignore his stats

Stats have a tendency to be skewed based on the basis of era, competition, etc. that's why I was sticking to theme of just a BASKETBALL player. I don't know about you, but if the Lebron James i'm talking about, played in the same era as MJ, he too would rack up statistics that are even more incredible than he already does right now...

 

[iamyourfather]

oh you mean lebron would score more against defenses that allowed you to hand check and actually defend?

you mean lebron would score more playing against ACTUAL centers? you mean his stat line would be better in an era where players weren't twittering to each other trying to be super friends and actually hated one another and wanted to rip each others heads off.. yea you're right.. If Jordan played in today's amazing defensive league with its supreme centers he'd have pathetic numbers

you're right

no i see it. really. because it was easier to put up crazy numbers back then than it is now. 

 

[Coupé It]

I'm sure with all this "LeBron" hype thats been going down since he won the Finals and an uncontested Olympic medal, Michael Jordan is wishing he never retired (the first time) to go play baseball. If he knew a 27 year old whose won 1 championship in 9 years and left to play with a supporting "cast" Dwyane Wade & Chris Bosh would get this much shine he would have have never retired and ya'll would have been looking at 8 straight championships opposed to 2 three peats. That motivation would have been enough for MJ.

 

[iamyourfather]

I'm sure with all this "LeBron" hype thats been going down since he won the Finals and an uncontested Olympic medal, Michael Jordan is wishing he never retired (the first time) to go play baseball. If he knew a 27 year old whose won 1 championship in 9 years and left to play with a supporting "cast" Dwyane Wade & Chris Bosh would get this much shine he would have have never retired and ya'll would have been looking at 8 straight championships opposed to 2 three peats. That motivation would have been enough for MJ.

dudes are quick to erase from their memory LAST YEAR'S FINALS

the mavs whose average age was 137 years and aside from tyson chandler are soft as wet toilet paper defensively HELD LEBRON JAMES TO 17.8 POINTS PER GAME.

look at those stats.. forget any other stats for any other player... forget the 80s n 90s, forget kobe, forget shaq...

how does your scoring, rebounding and assist averages go DOWN in the game's BIGGEST stage? that's whose closing the gap? 

almost 9 FULL points of scoring down.. jason terry scored more points in the nba finals than lebron james.

jason terry. 

jason terry.

 

[shoeking2101]

oh you mean lebron would score more against defenses that allowed you to hand check and actually defend?
you mean lebron would score more playing against ACTUAL centers? you mean his stat line would be better in an era where players weren't twittering to each other trying to be super friends and actually hated one another and wanted to rip each others heads off.. yea you're right.. If Jordan played in today's amazing defensive league with its supreme centers he'd have pathetic numbers
you're right

no i see it. really. because it was easier to put up crazy numbers back then than it is now. 

I'm sorry, i'm taking my chances with Lebron against the likes of Craig Eloh (Sp?), Gerald Wilkins, Danny Ainge, Dennis Johnson, Larry Bird, Magic, and a lot of the other wings that played in the first four seasons Jordan came into the L. (Chose his first 4 seasons simply because the stats you cited, cited Jordan's first four seasons in the L)

I'm sure with all this "LeBron" hype thats been going down since he won the Finals and an uncontested Olympic medal, Michael Jordan is wishing he never retired (the first time) to go play baseball. If he knew a 27 year old whose won 1 championship in 9 years and left to play with a supporting "cast" Dwyane Wade & Chris Bosh would get this much shine he would have have never retired and ya'll would have been looking at 8 straight championships opposed to 2 three peats. That motivation would have been enough for MJ.

You don't know this though, that's an assumption. Who's to say that he really wanted to fulfill his father's wish without caring for any championships regarding basketball?...

And how many rings did a 27 year old MJ have? Also, if you are seriously going to use Dwade and Bosh to dilute how great of a player Lebron is, after watching it with your own eyes, then I don't know what to say.

 

[iamyourfather]

shoeking i want you to sit there and tell me any of those 80s or 90s teams were softer than the 2011 mavs 

lol sit there and tell me how FIERCE of a defender shawn marion is... because last i remember the goat was hitting nothing but net at age like 59 against a PRIME marion in the all star game

but yea tell me what a all-time great defensive FORCE the 2011 mavs were to hold lebron to 17.8ppg

they are like the pittsburgh steelers steel curtain version in the NBA. an amazing, blue collar, hardnosed team built on defense led by their fearless ray lewis-like leader, dirk nowitzki

 

[shoeking2101]

shoeking i want you to sit there and tell me any of those 80s or 90s teams were softer than the 2011 mavs 

lol sit there and tell me how FIERCE of a defender shawn marion is... because last i remember the goat was hitting nothing but net at age like 59 against a PRIME marion in the all star game



but yea tell me what a all-time great defensive FORCE the 2011 mavs were to hold lebron to 17.8ppg


they are like the pittsburgh steelers steel curtain version in the NBA. an amazing, blue collar, hardnosed team built on defense led by their fearless ray lewis-like leader, dirk nowitzki

You do realize that another season was played after the 2010-2011 season and that at the end of the day...IT WAS JUST ONE FINAL right?

 

[iamyourfather]

nah what you're arguing and said is that no player ever has affected the game like lebron

so what you're saying is pretty heavy... ur talking nba history using the word EVER... so how does this phenomenal alien/robot hybrid demigod you're hyping up get held to 17.8 points per game in the biggest stage of the game.. how... even old as,s kobe shooting like 30% didnt get held under 18 man... how does jason terry outscore the player whose affected the game more than anyone in league history?

the 2011 mavs are the softest team in nba finals history since the 06 mavs man.. 

they're softer than all the 80s teams whoever made it

softer than the 90/91 lakers, 92 blazers, 93 suns, 94 knicks, 95 magic 96 sonics, 97-98 jazz, old pacers, 76ers, nj nets, 

there hasnt been a softer team in the finals in 32 years. and that team holds ur boy under 18. 

jason terry. 

jason

terry

 

[noblekane]

lol this thread

you all should have just let john salley have his opinion. butyou all had to catch feelings

now its a jordan vs lebron discussion

 

[memo]

dudes are quick to erase from their memory LAST YEAR'S FINALS

the mavs whose average age was 137 years and aside from tyson chandler are soft as wet toilet paper defensively HELD LEBRON JAMES TO 17.8 POINTS PER GAME.

That was his average not how many he actually scored per game and his assists and rebounds didn't go down. You're just making things up.  

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/1966/year/2011/lebron-james

 

[shoeking2101]

nah what you're arguing and said is that no player ever has affected the game like lebron

so what you're saying is pretty heavy... ur talking nba history using the word EVER... so how does this phenomenal alien/robot hybrid demigod you're hyping up get held to 17.8 points per game in the biggest stage of the game.. how... even old as,s kobe shooting like 30% didnt get held under 18 man... how does jason terry outscore the player whose affected the game more than anyone in league history?

the 2011 mavs are the softest team in nba finals history since the 06 mavs man.. 

they're softer than all the 80s teams whoever made it
softer than the 90/91 lakers, 92 blazers, 93 suns, 94 knicks, 95 magic 96 sonics, 97-98 jazz, old pacers, 76ers, nj nets, 

there hasnt been a softer team in the finals in 32 years. and that team holds ur boy under 18. 

jason terry. 
jason
terry

Bruh...perhaps you didn't read the last post...

At the end of the day...IT WAS ONE SERIES speak on his other playoff past performances then if you're going to bring up the past..

 

[tony3di]

I AGREE WITH JOHN SALLEY 150%

Lebron is the best player ever, hands down; there is not 1 person who wouldn't want to play with this dude! There is not 1 position he cant guard, and he's a top 5 player at every position! His only flaw is that hes unselfish & i don't consider that a flaw; the league is a lot more talented now than it ever was, if you don't have a super team your not winning championships.

Jordan & the Bulls where the best team in the NBA during the 90's the 2 seasons he didnt play the bulls still made it to the eastern conference finals, meaning he had a great team, Lebron leaves the Cavaliers & all the sudden they are drafting Kyrie Irving the next season.

An NBA exec. said that their is absolutely no game plan to prepare for Lebron James during the regular season, dude is 40+ games good, in the playoffs when their is more times teams are able to strategize on ways to contain him

Jordan was the greatest player in 90's for that era, dude had a lot of heart & was hella tough, the advantage the league had then that they don't have now is the competitiveness, players nowadays are all friendly with each other, its definitely become more of a fraternity now, than it has in the past. Back then the players damn near hated each other they were competing hella tough every game. Nowadays there are only a select amount of players who really bring it like that every game.

Kobe Bryant is also better than Jordan, thats the most skilled player to ever pick up a basketball, he has absolutely zero weakness, and he has that Jordan competitive edge!

-AI

 

[imonnt]

Lebron is basically Magic and Jordan in one talent wise... but Jordan's heart can never be compared. Its tough because Jordan was a one man show and Lebron is more of a team player that controls the game like a quarterback. These comparisons should stop cause its soooo hard to compare two players with totally different styles of play. Its like comparing Shaq to Iverson... its not going anywhere

Kobe is the only thing closest to Jordan, and I think once KD learns how to defend, he'll surpass both.

 

[shoeking2101]

Lebron is basically Magic and Jordan in one talent wise... but Jordan's heart can never be compared. Its tough because Jordan was a one man show and Lebron is more of a team player that controls the game like a quarterback. These comparisons should stop cause its soooo hard to compare two players with totally different styles of play. Its like comparing Shaq to Iverson... its not going anywhere

Kobe is the only thing closest to Jordan, and I think once KD learns how to defend, he'll surpass both.

Kobe may be the closest thing to Jordan aesthetics wise, but in his own "era/generation" there are players who have done more than him on the floor, pound for pound. (Minus rings, team thing IMO). Kobe is no Jordan, other than he walks and plays like him. Kobe's an all time great to me, the greatest Laker of all time, however he just can't box with the black cat. He's smaller, & less athletic, which is why to me he shoots a lot more jumpers than Jordan, especially 3 pointers. Because of his lack of athleticism (In this comparison against Jordan) forces him to take a lot more tough shots than Jordan did. Jordan routinely got easy 15 footers, shots at the rim, even in his last year(s) as a Bull. Can't say that about bean. He also wasn't nearly the defender Black Cat was. (But I think Kobe is an overrated defender who only gets All defensive nods because the media is trying to make him the next MJ so take it for what it's worth )

KD doesn't defend well, doesn't create for his teammates that well,(For himself even for that matter. He gets pushed out of position to much for me against physical defense. Ex.Finals this past season) doesn't rebound that well, especially for his size, and overall doesn't have the make-up Jordan has. All that could change but as of right now, Durant IMO has a long ways to go to coming close to boxing with the god.

This has been fun, no more rebuttals for me though in this thread, i've said enough ...I think

 

[defobking]

This dude shoeking2101 is the reason why i hate the likings of kobe and lebron. i give props when props are due...i believe as of right now Lebron is the best player in the NBA. but come on dude is half way his career and shoeking2101 is already calling him the GOAT, and obvious stats wise shoeking2101 cant argue with iamyourfather and so he say u dont look at stats when ur looking for a GOAT player...like ****. Lebron took the biggest L in the recent history of NBA last year with the decision + final performance. earning him the nickname lechoke. But he prove himself this year with the champ and now i consider him being a legend (top 10-15 all time already imo) but his not in the conversation for the GOAT player yet. Let the man get another or champ or 3 peat and i would see the validation of you sayin his GOAT.