Kanye West: King of the Sunken Place, "Watch the Throne"

[tdogg2k]

I don't see how y'all say he can't be redeemed, but yet all majority agree he was talking out his @$ss / not in his right mind / uneducated about the topic / doesn't read so he don't know. .. Aren't all those the right conditions to come back and either say.... Let me fully explain where I was going.. Or, I talked to ______ and I see now what I said was _______.

If you don't feel that way then it seem it would be lights out no need to even give this the breath of life you're giving it.

For some people I feel like you want it to come out he had to go to the mental hospital or is schizophrenic so you can justify your thoughts on the topic or for some people Dismiss what he said... You're shocked one of your fav artist said this... Made you look at him sideways.
..

So which is it....you want his redemption or you want his damnation?

 

[harlemtothebronx]

**** Kanye.

 

[RIP sleazyy]

So which is it....you want his redemption or you want his damnation?

I don't want either one. I want that album to drop so I can see if it's good.

 

[6pac]

People put too much value in his materialism. I got a whole post last page that explains why Kanye isn't a genius. His talent isn't his talent alone. Kanye West is a collective unit.

4 songwriters, 2 producers, but 1 genius? C'mon fam. Lets keep it a buck.

And lets keep it all the way a buck since we're talking about his "genius", not only are the majority of his songs a 4 man show, his Nike shoes were built on existing Nike toolage, his Adidas 350's are a carbon copy of the Nike Roshe Run, and his Yeezy season clothing is a Rick Owens knock off.

https://www.racked.com/2015/2/13/8035019/kanye-west-adidas-raf-simons-margiela-rick-owens#0

Sell me on the genius, cause I'm still seeing right through it.

Curating and putting people who know better than you on certain things is genius. Same thing Puff did musically and with Sean John.

If the dude who made the beats and who were on his design team were what was truly behind him then they would be Kanye or have a similar path themselves. And in some cases (Virgil/Jerry Lorenzo/dude from balenciaga and other Donda graduates), we’re seeing them flourish and prove that they WERE an integral part of the Ye machine.

But if Jeff Bhasker and Mike Dean and whoever really were the end all be all of Ye then we would have seen ten other Ye’s. Michael Jackson and Prince and **** can have all these writers but when someone wants to apply that same level of production value to rap music we try to discredit them.

 

[Ingenious Bastard]

THIS. the redemption thing is very binary and i think most people are still gonna listen to the music and what not but will kinda have a different respect for him now when it comes to non-music things. like he made it very, very clear he's not CD kanye anymore.

I dont even understand how people who disagree with his statements can even continue to listen to his music. I do understand being able to separate the talent from the person. But in Kanye's case, It doesn't exactly work, because his subject matter is contradictory to his statements.

You're not about to sit up here and tell me how you're this great influencer or the next Walt Disney, when:
1. You dont read
2. You cant think for yourself or fact check
3. You regurgitate biased talking points from other people.

You cant freestyle about white dominance while wearing a MAGA hat. You can't rap about New Slaves when your shoes and clothing cost that amount and sell out.

 

[RIP sleazyy]

Prince ain't in that category and shouldn't even be in this conversation. Son was literally giving away top 5 and top 10 hits to people and writing under like 6 different names people know about his pen game, let alone the fact he would do his own instrumentation and production.

Son could (and did) write and produce an album himself. His first album only had one other name on it, on one track.

I dont even understand how people who disagree with his statements can even continue to listen to his music. I do understand being able to separate the talent from the person. But in Kanye's case, It doesn't exactly work, because his subject matter is contradictory to his statements.

You're not about to sit up here and tell me how you're this great influencer or the next Walt Disney, when:
1. You dont read
2. You cant think for yourself or fact check
3. You regurgitate biased talking points from other people.

You cant freestyle about white dominance while wearing a MAGA hat. You can't rap about New Slaves when your shoes and clothing cost that amount and sell out.

Man I went back and listened to Yeezus last night and was shaking my head so damn hard listening to it

 

[PRIME]

1. Curating and putting people who know better than you on certain things is genius. Same thing Puff did musically and with Sean John.

2. If the dude who made the beats and who were on his design team were what was truly behind him then they would be Kanye or have a similar path themselves.

3. And in some cases (Virgil/Jerry Lorenzo/dude from balenciaga and other Donda graduates), we’re seeing them flourish and prove that they WERE an integral part of the Ye machine.

4. But if Jeff Bhasker and Mike Dean and whoever really were the end all be all of Ye then we would have seen ten other Ye’s. Michael Jackson and Prince and **** can have all these writers but when someone wants to apply that same level of production value to rap music we try to discredit them.

1. I’m not seeing how that makes you a genius but if that’s your criteria, then by all means.

2. That’s not always true and that’s evident in more industries than just music. Kanye is a better salesman than anything. Talent doesn’t always equal success. That’s why many of the greatest song writers weren’t singers. That’s why Steve Jobs was the face of Apple and not Woz. You ever wonder why Kanye wants to be compared to Steve Jobs, Walt Disney, etc? And not Woz, Bill Gates, Bezos?

3. That’s my entire point. They were a part of the Kanye machine. That’s why dude isn’t a genius. He’s nothing but a shell of the group of people he has around him at the time. Yes he can make great art on his own, but to call him a genius when it’s clear as day that he’s pulling resources and styles from other people proves that he isn’t.

4. I don’t regard MJ as a genius. Michael is an icon. But Michael was part of a machine. Beyoncé is part of a machine. Elvis was part of a machine.

PRINCE is a genius. Prince is completely different from them. The dude played 27 instruments. TWENTY SEVEN. He sang, he wrote, and he played 27 instruments.... BY AGE 20

There’s levels to this in my opinion. And to call someone a genius because they made some of your favorite songs ain’t enough.

Kanye West is a music icon. But he ain’t no genius. There’s nothing wrong with the dude not being a genius. We clearly have different criteria for what makes a genius but everyone who’s saying he’s a genius either brings up his fashion sense or how many classic albums he has. That doesn’t make you a genius. That makes you a music icon. Kanye has influence, he has style, an ability to surround himself with some of the best producers, rappers, and fashion designers to absorb what they know and reflect it in his own work. That’s not genius. That’s just being ******* smart

You ever heard the expression “good artist copy, great artists steal”?

Well a genius does neither.

But don’t get it twisted. Michael is the biggest damn icon there ever was. So being an icon ain’t anything to scoff at.

But I’m done with the genius topic. The horse is dead at this point. If y’all say he’s a genius, y’all got it.

 

[6pac]

1. I’m not seeing how that makes you a genius but if that’s your criteria, then by all means.

2. That’s not always true and that’s evident in more industries than just music. Kanye is a better salesman than anything. Talent doesn’t always equal success. That’s why many of the greatest singers weren’t song writers. That’s why Steve Jobs was the face of Apple and not Woz. You ever wonder why Kanye wants to be compared to Steve Jobs, Walt Disney, etc? And not Woz, Bill Gates, Bezos?

3. That’s my entire point. They were a part of the Kanye machine. That’s why dude isn’t a genius. He’s nothing but a shell of the group of people he has around him at the time. Yes he can make great art on his own, but to call him a genius when it’s clear as day that he’s pulling resources and styles from other people proves that he isn’t.

4. I don’t hold regard MJ as a genius. Michael is an icon. But Michael was part of a machine. Beyoncé is part of a machine. Elvis was part of a machine.

PRINCE is a genius. Prince is completely different from them. The dude played 27 instruments. TWENTY SEVEN. He sang, he wrote, and he played 27 instruments.... BY AGE 20

There’s levels to this in my opinion. And to call someone a genius because they made some of your favorite songs ain’t enough.

Kanye West is a music icon. But he ain’t no genius. There’s nothing wrong with the dude not being a genius. We clearly have different criteria for what makes a genius but everyone who’s saying he’s a genius either brings up his fashion sense or how many classic albums he has. That doesn’t make you a genius. That makes you a music icon. Kanye has influence, he has style, an ability to surround himself with some of the best producers, rappers, and fashion designers to absorb what they know and reflect it in his own work. That’s not genius. That’s just being ****ing smart

You ever heard the expression “good artist copy, great artists steal”?

Well a genius does neither.

But don’t get it twisted. Michael is the biggest damn icon there ever was. So being an icon ain’t anything to scoff at.

But I’m done with the genius topic. The horse is dead at this point. If y’all say he’s a genius, y’all got it.

i can agree with him being an icon over necessarily a genius when u start to break it down.

it boils down to the ambiguity of what he’s actually contributing when you see 10 different names on a song. But again why does Kanyes record always sound like only he could do them.

There is genius in curating and just making it ******* happen. Lebron is Lebron but he still needs a coach.

Mixing, making beats, songwriting and PRODUCING an overall record are all respective talents...

 

[tdogg2k]

Just want to clarify (not being sarcastic)
So there's Genius and theres talent? (talent /icon same?)
is that a good way to separate ?
Prince = Genius
MJ/Beyonce = Talented?
But wouldn't the difference between Genius and Talent (in the music category) Be content creation?
(content creation is a bit vague, but you know what i'm getting at)

 

[tokes99]

Except his words are being used by racists to justify their racism.

So, I'm very much gonna gaf.

obviously you’re entitled to your opinions and can feel whatever type of way...but that some ignorant people see advantage to use some ignorant statement from a person who literally admitted his ignorance, seems kinda irrelevant, those people were going to be ignorant and push their ignorance regardless...

Oh yeah I fully agree, not everyone needs or deserves redemption. But this could really bring him back to earth.

The cover with the crown of thorns and then a song called "I Am A God" was really showing folks where his head is at. ***** really thought he was invincible now he's out here lookin crazy and acting like a victim.

Free thinking but parroting Fox News talking points and refusing to read

i actually don’t think there is a disconnect there, he is still basically on the same wave (much of that period he was in the media talking about his personal frustration of having all these ‘ideas’ and the roadblocks in front of him whether it be socially, fashion, architecture, design, etc., etc.,), calling himself a god was never about him literally being god...at least i never interpreted that way. rather it was about connecting to that type of energy, that is about the confidence to control and create one’s own destiny; and if you’re thinking that way slavery framed as a “choice” might make sense...

still somewhat nonsensical, but inot all that apart from what i remember him talking about during the yeezus period...he was on that classism is more impactful than race wave then too...

 

[tay1]

Man the usage of the word genius describing musical ability is subjective. There's no criteria. How are ya'll driving any deeper than that

 

[tdogg2k]

Man the usage of the word genius describing musical ability is subjective. There's no criteria. How are ya'll driving any deeper than that

This is why I asked im legit trying to figure this out.
Is it playing instruments?
voice control?
creation of a melody?
I Don't have the answers sway

 

[Mark Antony]

I'd say Kanye, like Puff, Steve Jobs etc were visionaries. They can see the final product and gather the right experts to get it done. Of course the ideas don't always work out. I don't know if i'd label visionaries genius, but that's completely subjective.

 

[PRIME]

Just want to clarify (not being sarcastic)
So there's Genius and theres talent? (talent /icon same?)
is that a good way to separate ?
Prince = Genius
MJ/Beyonce = Talented?
But wouldn't the difference between Genius and Talent (in the music category) Be content creation?

Geniuses are talented. Not everyone who's talented are geniuses. MJ was talented. But Prince, Stevie, Jimi, and tons of other people who I feel can be categorized as geniuses are that because oh how they got their talent and how they mastered their crafts. Also, when they mastered them. Many of the people I regard as musical geniuses mastered their crafts at an early age. Michael is a special case to me because he was a child prodigy and icon. But he was still the result of the Jackson 5 and his family behind him. It was a machine. But there's nothing wrong with that. He made amazing music and is the biggest artist ever to make music imo, but him not being a genius (in my opinion) isn't a problem or something to be held against him.

Everyone who is a genius isn't the biggest artist in the world, and everyone is is a mega star isn't a genius.


Content creation is up for interpretation and its a subjective argument because its not set in stone. We had that discussion a few pages back with Art vs Craft. Different people can have different opinions on content. But ability is unanimous. Nobody could look at a 5 year old blind kid playing the harmonica or a 12 year old who can play 20+ instruments and NOT admit there's a genius level ability in them. Stevie and Prince are a different breed.

 

[tay1]

This is why I asked im legit trying to figure this out.
Is it playing instruments?
voice control?
creation of a melody?
I Don't have the answers sway

It's whatever one wants it to be. No one artist has mastered all of the elements that makes music appealing

 

[RIP sleazyy]

calling himself a god was never about him literally being god...at least i never interpreted that way. rather it was about connecting to that type of energy, that is about the confidence to control and create one’s own destiny; and if you’re thinking that way slavery framed as a “choice” might make sense...

still somewhat nonsensical, but inot all that apart from what i remember him talking about during the yeezus period...he was on that classism is more impactful than race wave then too...

I fully believe the guy calling himself a genius and god's vessel, a greater influence than Saint Paul and Pablo Picasso, and a self proclaimed ego maniac and non reader would have a god complex

He also said only believe 90% of what he says though so

 

[jjs07]

I'd say Kanye, like Puff, Steve Jobs etc were visionaries. They can see the final product and gather the right experts to get it done. Of course the ideas don't always work out. I don't know if i'd label visionaries genius, but that's completely subjective.

I think PRIME nailed it in his post.

However, I can completely rock w/ what you said about the difference between being a visionary and genius. However, as you mentioned, it's subjective...however, I don't feel as though anyone who CLAIMS they're a genius, are actually that.

 

[Ingenious Bastard]

Man I went back and listened to Yeezus last night and was shaking my head so damn hard listening to it

That's what I'm saying its just so comical at this point. I can't do it. I dont ever wanna hear another woke, genius, or pro-black lyric for the rest of his career.

 

[tdogg2k]

So can we say "Master of their Craft" instead of Genius?
Where of course Master of their Craft can have different categories also

 

[6pac]

This is why I asked im legit trying to figure this out.
Is it playing instruments?
voice control?
creation of a melody?
I Don't have the answers sway

Using what you have to make a final great record. Thats really it. Just get that **** done. Which is the pivotal key to what kanye, puff, khaled, dre etc. understand and others dont.

 

[tokes99]

Man the usage of the word genius describing musical ability is subjective. There's no criteria. How are ya'll driving any deeper than that

exactly! what is for sure though, it isn’t easy to achieve what these people find so easy to criticize...so they all must have some quality in some quantity that made it possible for them to get there, else there’d be more beyoncés, kanyes, and elvises...taking absolutely nothing from prince, but that he was so proficient at so many parts of music making might have been out of necessity...it is maybe rare for popular artists that get to that level, but it isn’t necessarily unheard of...

as soon as a person does or says something people don’t like, they try to discount what they’ve done

 

[brivera716]

it’s not that big of a deal, genius is just a word

calling himself a god was a more worthy debate than this

 

[Hahahaha]

So can we say "Master of their Craft" instead of Genius?
Where of course Master of their Craft can have different categories also

Master of their craft doesn't fit Kanye, put out two albums that got destroyed, heard stans making all types of excuses. Gotta hear it live, he's changing the final product.

Kanye has great music, made some great beats and all of that but he's not a genius or a master. Guy has taking so many breaks and has made like 10 beats in the last 10 years. FOH.

 

[tay1]

it’s not that big of a deal, genius is just a word

calling himself a god was a more worthy debate than this

Nah. Conscious twitter folks been doing it. You cant accept one and not the other.

 

[tay1]

Master of their craft doesn't fit Kanye, put out two albums that got destroyed, heard stans making all types of excuses. Gotta hear it live, he's changing the final product.

Kanye has great music, made some great beats and all of that but he's not a genius or a master. Guy has taking so many breaks and has made like 10 beats in the last 10 years. FOH.

Sometimes I feel like you dont even be listening. . Hes done way more than 10 beats in the last 10 years