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You aren't wrong...
But CP isn't wrong either.
I don't go to the extreme side of it like CP does...but I don't think he is wrong.
**LA LAKERS THREAD** Sitting on 17! 2023-2024 offseason begins
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You aren't wrong...
But CP isn't wrong either.
I don't go to the extreme side of it like CP does...but I don't think he is wrong.
darthska
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems your opinion is that talent is more important than coaching. Is that correct?
His take is that basketball coaches are worthless. He has literally said they are just suits.
Yes, that's wrong.
That's not a 'Kinda, maybe' deal. -foe
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems your opinion is that talent is more important than coaching. Is that correct?
His take is that basketball coaches are worthless. He has literally said they are just suits.
Yes, that's wrong.
-foe
That's what I mean by extreme
Clearly I know they are more than just suits, but if you have the right talent and roster construction, you should win.
Pop had that a lot of years and correct me if I'm wrong, he never EVER repeated as a championship coach.
darthska
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There are literally dozens of examples of well constructed rosters with solid talent that did not win a championship. Only 1 team wins every year; that team is NOT the only team with talent & a well constructed roster. Roster construction (which is done by management), talent (done by scouts), gameplanning behind the scenes (done by coaching), execution of plans (players); the champion every year has the best COMBINATION of all that.
My standard isn't 'In order for me to consider you one of the GOAT coaches, you have to repeat at some point.'
-foe
Empty suits or just adult managers, I don't know the best way to explain it. But in the NBA, thee professional league of basketball, there's not a lot needed from coach.
I'm sorry but every single huddle, "ok, c'mon guys, let's hustle, play defense, pass the ball....." in some variation by every single guy. Some yell louder, some relax more, but it's the same variations of wording/speeches.
ESPN was jerking Lue off the entire 3rd Quarter like he was some God. Bron tweetin from Cancun. What, Lue leave the game in the 4th? We don't "adjust" in the 4th? Why was Lue down 16 to begin with, we don't adjust in the first half?
Ingram was fire early. Then he was locked up. Then he was fire again late. Was Lue working different shifts?
Lue blew double digit leads in back to back must win games. To two coaches you couldn't pick out of a lineup from the TWolves and Pelicans. I don't even know who the Minny HC is. Is it Flip Saunders?
Players control more than people realize. In the NFL every single coverage is called, play for play. Every snap is called, offense and defense. By 20+ coaches on each sideline, EVERY SNAP.
NBA coach stands there yelling hustle, move, get back on D while players decide who gets the ball, where they want it, etc. No one tells Bron to do his step back. No one told Kobe where/when to shoot, Luka runs 479 pick and rolls a game. CP3 picks where he wants to attack. Kerr ain't tellin Steph to shoot from 43 feet.
I'm sorry. There's 100+ possessions a game. Coaches call a couple plays out of timeouts and maybe run a set or two, otherwise it's live action by players training their entire lives.
Suit, or Adult Managers or rah rah guy. To me it's a ton of hyperbole given to figureheads. Like a manager being praised for drinking coffee at his desk all day while employees sweat their @$$es off. *Shrugs*
I'm sorry but every single huddle, "ok, c'mon guys, let's hustle, play defense, pass the ball....." in some variation by every single guy. Some yell louder, some relax more, but it's the same variations of wording/speeches.
ESPN was jerking Lue off the entire 3rd Quarter like he was some God. Bron tweetin from Cancun. What, Lue leave the game in the 4th? We don't "adjust" in the 4th? Why was Lue down 16 to begin with, we don't adjust in the first half?
Ingram was fire early. Then he was locked up. Then he was fire again late. Was Lue working different shifts?
Lue blew double digit leads in back to back must win games. To two coaches you couldn't pick out of a lineup from the TWolves and Pelicans. I don't even know who the Minny HC is. Is it Flip Saunders?
Players control more than people realize. In the NFL every single coverage is called, play for play. Every snap is called, offense and defense. By 20+ coaches on each sideline, EVERY SNAP.
NBA coach stands there yelling hustle, move, get back on D while players decide who gets the ball, where they want it, etc. No one tells Bron to do his step back. No one told Kobe where/when to shoot, Luka runs 479 pick and rolls a game. CP3 picks where he wants to attack. Kerr ain't tellin Steph to shoot from 43 feet.
I'm sorry. There's 100+ possessions a game. Coaches call a couple plays out of timeouts and maybe run a set or two, otherwise it's live action by players training their entire lives.
Suit, or Adult Managers or rah rah guy. To me it's a ton of hyperbole given to figureheads. Like a manager being praised for drinking coffee at his desk all day while employees sweat their @$$es off. *Shrugs*
darthska
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Reducing coaching to pep talks. Game is at 7? He could be there at 7:15, in time for the first timeout/pep talk.
Aight, man.
-foe
Game is at 7? He could be there at 7:15, in time for the first timeout/pep talk.Aight, man.
-foe
dontsteponmyshoes
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RIP Flip
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All that needs to be said.
What's more important, a good coach or elite players? Either or, if all your franchise wants to do is make the playoffs.
But if your franchise truly wants to win a championship or two.....You gonna need BOTH a good to great motivator and well respected coach AND you also gonna need great players and elite role players. Generally speaking.
Fun Trivia: what do these "guys in suits" below ALL have in common besides holding clipboards, calling timeouts, making substitutions, and calling plays?
You think any of these names above can be confused with, say, a Doug Collins, who coached MJ, Scottie, Horace, Bill, and John....or how about Paul Westphal, who coached an All-Star team in Phoenix from '92-94, or how about Rick Adelman, who coached All-Star teams in Portland and Sacramento...or how bout Mike D'Antoni, who's coached just about as many HOF's and elite players as any coach still breathing
Championship winning coaches are just "Guys in suits" though and it's players who are 100% responsible for winning titles lol
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I’m for running it back. The comedy that was last year was good for a lot of our health.
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you can always tell the difference between those who actually hooped and those who've never played past high school/rec league levels of ball when these kinda debates occur
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AB and Melo coming back are no surprise.
But if we have to give both of them major minutes, we in trouble.
But if we have to give both of them major minutes, we in trouble.
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The craziest coincidence in my lifetime is how whatever teams D’Antoni coached would be very pro offense and bad at defense. Kind of crazy that whatever team he went to, the players would magically shoot more 3s and run more. Weird.
All that needs to be said.
What's more important, a good coach or elite players? Either or, if all your franchise wants to do is make the playoffs.
But if your franchise truly wants to win a championship or two.....You gonna need BOTH a good to great motivator and well respected coach AND you also gonna need great players and elite role players. Generally speaking.
Fun Trivia: what do these "guys in suits" below ALL have in common besides holding clipboards, calling timeouts, making substitutions, and calling plays?
You think any of these names above can be confused with, say, a Doug Collins, who coached MJ, Scottie, Horace, Bill, and John....or how about Paul Westphal, who coached an All-Star team in Phoenix from '92-94, or how about Rick Adelman, who coached All-Star teams in Portland and Sacramento...or how bout Mike D'Antoni, who's coached just about as many HOF's and elite players as any coach still breathing
Championship winning coaches are just "Guys in suits" though and it's players who are 100% responsible for winning titles lol
Fun trivia:
5 of those coaches have 35 Titles.
Every other coach in history has 40.
Hundreds and hundreds of random suits and 5 dudes have 45% of the titles.
Should we review the rosters of those 5, and the rosters those same 5 had when they didn't win?
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I can't take someone seriously when they call highly respected coaches like Jack Ramsey, Rick Carlisle, Chuck Daly, Bill Fitch, and Lenny Wilkens "Random suits."
As if the aforementioned are on that Luke Walton-Brian Winters-Sidney Lowe type level lmao
As if the aforementioned are on that Luke Walton-Brian Winters-Sidney Lowe type level lmao
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I mean...clearly...CP thinks the way he thinks and it's not gonna change.
Let's put the coaching thing to bed.
Let's put the coaching thing to bed.
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And luck. I think that's really the final factor.
Who you play and matchup with in each round of the payoffs (Heat ECF run 2 years ago).... injuries to the opposition (Jazz this year getting no Luka)... injuries or unavailability to your own roster (LAC = PG13 testing + for Covid).... where you end up picking in the draft (Spurs = Timmy, Cavs = LBJ).... these are all things that franchises have zero control over and are pretty much determined by fate/luck.
All the coaching, scouting, and players can be great. But without some good luck, it kind of all goes down the drain.
darthska
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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity."
Were the Cavs 'lucky' to not face the Warriors at full strength in 2016? Absolutely. But it's not like that was luck for the Celtics. Celtics weren't there. Year before, were the Warriors 'lucky' to not face the Cavs at full strength? Yup, but it's not like it was lucky of my Lakers to not face the Cavs in the Finals at full strength. We weren't there.
Injuries are part of the game, but you can't control that or game plan for it. You game plan what you can control and then if things go in your favor, even better. If they don't, you do the best you can with what you can control.
tl,dr; Eff luck.
-foe
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Yes, if you're well prepared, you can take full advantage of when a "lucky" opportunity comes your way. Which is why I'm of the mindset that having a veteran or championship coach/manager is better than a younger coach/manager who has never been to the championship.
You're taking it somewhere else with Lakers/Celtics not even being there.
All I'm saying is that you can have everything that you named but without SOME sort of good fortune, you likely won't win it all.
You're taking it somewhere else with Lakers/Celtics not even being there.
All I'm saying is that you can have everything that you named but without SOME sort of good fortune, you likely won't win it all.
darthska
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2 things.
1. To say that it is unlikely to win the championship without luck, I wholeheartedly disagree. I think there are examples of luck being a huge factor, liked the 2 that I named in '15 & '16. But you're saying it's unlikely that a team wins a championship without luck. What are some other examples where luck was a huge factor?
2. The point still remains that you can't gameplan for luck. You can only game plan for what you control.
-foe
I would assume you know that I know the different levels of coaching. You may not agree with my line of thinking, but I full well know the difference between Jerry Sloan and Luke Walton.
Karl Malone and John Stockton.
darthska
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