Let's say you've lived this whole life never knowing there is a God...

[its that dude]

Originally Posted by Zero 0123

If God gave you free will, he will let you mess up when you exercise the free will in the wrong manner. That is the will of God. Had you been following his path, none of the rape, genocide, 9-11 (which we brought upon ourselves. If you believe it was anyone else but Bush, you a fool), and all the other wrongs in the world, none of them would come to fruition.


One of the most overlooked, yet root of all evil type commandment is "Thou shall not covet thou neighbor." It's so true. A lot of problems comes from jealousy. Think about it. He has what I don't have. I'm guna take it type BS. Sound familiar? (Pretty much every war)

Like all you been saying with need to see to believe type stuff. God is showing you all the wrongs of straying from his path. Live a holy life and you will see those wrongdoings disappear.

God also has free will and he chooses to let bad/evil things happen to people. That right there shows that God is not all-good.

 

[its that dude]

Originally Posted by Zero 0123

If God gave you free will, he will let you mess up when you exercise the free will in the wrong manner. That is the will of God. Had you been following his path, none of the rape, genocide, 9-11 (which we brought upon ourselves. If you believe it was anyone else but Bush, you a fool), and all the other wrongs in the world, none of them would come to fruition.


One of the most overlooked, yet root of all evil type commandment is "Thou shall not covet thou neighbor." It's so true. A lot of problems comes from jealousy. Think about it. He has what I don't have. I'm guna take it type BS. Sound familiar? (Pretty much every war)

Like all you been saying with need to see to believe type stuff. God is showing you all the wrongs of straying from his path. Live a holy life and you will see those wrongdoings disappear.

God also has free will and he chooses to let bad/evil things happen to people. That right there shows that God is not all-good.

 

[pusha c]

you're speaking of God as if He is a human being... That's the biggest misconception of God. Why are you trying to understand why God does what He does when you aren't even NEAR His realm of thinking... You're a simple human being trying to understand God from your perspective. WE CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHY HE DOES WHAT HE DOES BECAUSE WE ARE HUMANS! Everything isn't always black and white like you make it out to be... but I don't expect you to understand anything I'm typing, i expect you to disregard it

 

[pusha c]

you're speaking of God as if He is a human being... That's the biggest misconception of God. Why are you trying to understand why God does what He does when you aren't even NEAR His realm of thinking... You're a simple human being trying to understand God from your perspective. WE CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHY HE DOES WHAT HE DOES BECAUSE WE ARE HUMANS! Everything isn't always black and white like you make it out to be... but I don't expect you to understand anything I'm typing, i expect you to disregard it

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by PUSHA C

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Originally Posted by PUSHA C

DCAllAmerican i think op or somebody else in this thread definitely said what if we just exist... Now in response to your comment
clearly noBODY created us because that implies God is a BODY, as in, human. I can't correctly characterize God how I understand Him because our mind can't comprehend what I imagine He is... a POWER that exists.

your next statement is, by following my argument, who created God? Hence why I said I can't correctly characterize God, I'll try by saying that He is a higher power; as vague as that sounds(reads). People who don't believe take the stories about GOD (Jesus doesn't necessarily fit into this argument because He is just an extension of sorts of God) that are in the Bible LITERALLY... That He (in human form) came down and breathed within us the breath of life when I think that is just an analogy that our human minds can grasp about creation.

In summation, I'm not REALLY BIG on religion but I have mine and I DO believe in a higher power because THAT is logical in my eyes... Plus I have an experience that literally forces me to believe in God lol

EDIT: cheers PH3N0M3N0N you're on my same wavelength. And that Anton guy I'm not even going to dignify with a (direct) response because every argument I have as to why I believe can't be "proven" so it holds no weight. Yeah, EVERYTHING can be seen, heard, felt in this world guy lol. simple minded %@+ n

You said it yourself.


I contemplate the mysteries of the universe as much as the next man. I'm a strict agnostic, I have my multiple theories on the origins of the universe and the purpose of man but I'm not going to label anything as fact. You're clearly not intelligent enough to realize that.

And get off your high horse, when people create "God is good and all-powerful threads" that's their opinion...I don't see it as them bashing my non-religious beliefs. You gave your "logical" reasons as to why God exists. I gave my own reasons as to why I reserve judgement. Stop whining.

i said i wouldn't but oh well. 1) i guess you didn't comprehend why i put proven in quotation marks. 2) i NEVER labeled anything i said as fact, just belief due to my understanding of logic/God. 3) and you're really gonna sit there and act like this isn't a religion bashing thread in a thin disguise... ok. i respect your beliefs though i don't agree with them but i think you are very simpleminded. a back and forth with you is what you want but it will go nowhere... as i ride on my high horse into the sunset (back into my office lol)

And I think you're extremely simple minded as well...not to the extent to full theists. Your beliefs are agnostic to some extent so I respect your beliefs more than the guy who says there is definitely a God and his name is Yahweh. 

The logic card you tried to play earlier with the "laws of creation" failed miserably, so if I were you I would bow out gracefully as well. You deny characterizing God/the higher being for logical reasons, because you're a man and it's completely beyond your comprehension. That logic should have extended to you not knowing whether or not a higher being existed, but you conveniently chose to make an exception in your thought process. Just say you have faith and keep it moving, stop tryna make this about logic you will lose everytime.

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by PUSHA C

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Originally Posted by PUSHA C

DCAllAmerican i think op or somebody else in this thread definitely said what if we just exist... Now in response to your comment
clearly noBODY created us because that implies God is a BODY, as in, human. I can't correctly characterize God how I understand Him because our mind can't comprehend what I imagine He is... a POWER that exists.

your next statement is, by following my argument, who created God? Hence why I said I can't correctly characterize God, I'll try by saying that He is a higher power; as vague as that sounds(reads). People who don't believe take the stories about GOD (Jesus doesn't necessarily fit into this argument because He is just an extension of sorts of God) that are in the Bible LITERALLY... That He (in human form) came down and breathed within us the breath of life when I think that is just an analogy that our human minds can grasp about creation.

In summation, I'm not REALLY BIG on religion but I have mine and I DO believe in a higher power because THAT is logical in my eyes... Plus I have an experience that literally forces me to believe in God lol

EDIT: cheers PH3N0M3N0N you're on my same wavelength. And that Anton guy I'm not even going to dignify with a (direct) response because every argument I have as to why I believe can't be "proven" so it holds no weight. Yeah, EVERYTHING can be seen, heard, felt in this world guy lol. simple minded %@+ n

You said it yourself.


I contemplate the mysteries of the universe as much as the next man. I'm a strict agnostic, I have my multiple theories on the origins of the universe and the purpose of man but I'm not going to label anything as fact. You're clearly not intelligent enough to realize that.

And get off your high horse, when people create "God is good and all-powerful threads" that's their opinion...I don't see it as them bashing my non-religious beliefs. You gave your "logical" reasons as to why God exists. I gave my own reasons as to why I reserve judgement. Stop whining.

i said i wouldn't but oh well. 1) i guess you didn't comprehend why i put proven in quotation marks. 2) i NEVER labeled anything i said as fact, just belief due to my understanding of logic/God. 3) and you're really gonna sit there and act like this isn't a religion bashing thread in a thin disguise... ok. i respect your beliefs though i don't agree with them but i think you are very simpleminded. a back and forth with you is what you want but it will go nowhere... as i ride on my high horse into the sunset (back into my office lol)

And I think you're extremely simple minded as well...not to the extent to full theists. Your beliefs are agnostic to some extent so I respect your beliefs more than the guy who says there is definitely a God and his name is Yahweh. 

The logic card you tried to play earlier with the "laws of creation" failed miserably, so if I were you I would bow out gracefully as well. You deny characterizing God/the higher being for logical reasons, because you're a man and it's completely beyond your comprehension. That logic should have extended to you not knowing whether or not a higher being existed, but you conveniently chose to make an exception in your thought process. Just say you have faith and keep it moving, stop tryna make this about logic you will lose everytime.

 

[its that dude]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

Originally Posted by Its That Dude

Just let that sink in a little. A life in which you never knew a higher being existed....



You've seen horrific,and atrocious things like war, genocide, murder, rape, e.g., Holocaust, 9/11, Katrina.



And today, I tell you that there is a God and that he is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good...would you believe me?

Science shows us that we are wired to believe in God or some kind of higher power.  Many people would choose not to acknowledge it, but there is a very real spirituality aspect of our brains hard wiring.

http://www.webmd.com/brai...od-spot-hard-to-pin-down

http://abcnews.go.com/Hea...-center/story?id=9796634

So hypothetically speaking, if you were to say that someone might say "I knew it!"  The thought still could have, and probably would have crossed his/her mind.

If someone weren't to react in that kind of fashion, obviously just by saying "There is a God" may not be all that convincing.  One would probably require proof.

did you even read the first link? it goes AGAINST your position. the second one doesn't even say that there is a god.

"If there's a God, then he communicates with us via our minds, via our brains, via our bodies," he said. "The brain matters, your body matters."


that's not scientific at all...

 

[its that dude]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

Originally Posted by Its That Dude

Just let that sink in a little. A life in which you never knew a higher being existed....



You've seen horrific,and atrocious things like war, genocide, murder, rape, e.g., Holocaust, 9/11, Katrina.



And today, I tell you that there is a God and that he is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good...would you believe me?

Science shows us that we are wired to believe in God or some kind of higher power.  Many people would choose not to acknowledge it, but there is a very real spirituality aspect of our brains hard wiring.

http://www.webmd.com/brai...od-spot-hard-to-pin-down

http://abcnews.go.com/Hea...-center/story?id=9796634

So hypothetically speaking, if you were to say that someone might say "I knew it!"  The thought still could have, and probably would have crossed his/her mind.

If someone weren't to react in that kind of fashion, obviously just by saying "There is a God" may not be all that convincing.  One would probably require proof.

did you even read the first link? it goes AGAINST your position. the second one doesn't even say that there is a god.

"If there's a God, then he communicates with us via our minds, via our brains, via our bodies," he said. "The brain matters, your body matters."


that's not scientific at all...

 

[its that dude]

Originally Posted by PH3N0M3N0N

Originally Posted by Its That Dude

Just let that sink in a little. A life in which you never knew a higher being existed....



You've seen horrific,and atrocious things like war, genocide, murder, rape, e.g., Holocaust, 9/11, Katrina.



And today, I tell you that there is a God and that he is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good...would you believe me?

Sure. I would. I've seen all types of +$#! happen so why would those events stop me?

Then after I said I believed you I'd ask "what does this God have to do with other humans creating problems for themselves and others?"

After seeing natural disasters literally tear cities and lands apart you think I wouldn't find a higher being believable?

And who are we as lower beings to say what's good or bad? Do you mean all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-beneficial?

Good/Bad are perspectives on situations not concrete states of being.

I believe in higher power. No amount of science can disprove it. It's not in our scope of sense or comprehension to do such. Play skeptic all day if you want.

Your first questions shows that you already have some idea of a God existing...stop you from what? the idea was to imagine living a life where God doesn't exist. THEN today I tell you that God exists and that he is all-good, all-powerful, and all- knowing. Would you believe what I told you today?

The first thing I assume to would ask is...(copied from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil)

1. If an all-powerful and perfectly good god exists, then evil does not.
2. There is evil in the world.
3. Therefore, an all-powerful and perfectly good god does not exist.


The Bible established the idea of God being all-good, not me. So my definition of good here comes from the Bible.

 

[its that dude]

Originally Posted by PH3N0M3N0N

Originally Posted by Its That Dude

Just let that sink in a little. A life in which you never knew a higher being existed....



You've seen horrific,and atrocious things like war, genocide, murder, rape, e.g., Holocaust, 9/11, Katrina.



And today, I tell you that there is a God and that he is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good...would you believe me?

Sure. I would. I've seen all types of +$#! happen so why would those events stop me?

Then after I said I believed you I'd ask "what does this God have to do with other humans creating problems for themselves and others?"

After seeing natural disasters literally tear cities and lands apart you think I wouldn't find a higher being believable?

And who are we as lower beings to say what's good or bad? Do you mean all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-beneficial?

Good/Bad are perspectives on situations not concrete states of being.

I believe in higher power. No amount of science can disprove it. It's not in our scope of sense or comprehension to do such. Play skeptic all day if you want.

Your first questions shows that you already have some idea of a God existing...stop you from what? the idea was to imagine living a life where God doesn't exist. THEN today I tell you that God exists and that he is all-good, all-powerful, and all- knowing. Would you believe what I told you today?

The first thing I assume to would ask is...(copied from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil)

1. If an all-powerful and perfectly good god exists, then evil does not.
2. There is evil in the world.
3. Therefore, an all-powerful and perfectly good god does not exist.


The Bible established the idea of God being all-good, not me. So my definition of good here comes from the Bible.

 

[tree4twenty]

Originally Posted by PH3N0M3N0N

Originally Posted by lobotomybeats

Originally Posted by PH3N0M3N0N

Originally Posted by lobotomybeats

Originally Posted by PH3N0M3N0N

Originally Posted by Its That Dude

Just let that sink in a little. A life in which you never knew a higher being existed....

You've seen horrific,and atrocious things like war, genocide, murder, rape, e.g., Holocaust, 9/11, Katrina.

And today, I tell you that there is a God and that he is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good...would you believe me?

And who are we as lower beings to say what's good or bad? Do you mean all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-beneficial?

Good/Bad are perspectives on situations not concrete states of being.

 Show me a god  that doesn't see these things as being bad and I will show you every reason you should have hoped that there wasn't a god.  If god were to show his/her face, the hardest thing for believers would be dealing with the fact that they have essentially worshiped a complete a-hole.

I'm not seeing what you're seeing.

good and bad are words we use to associate our thoughts/feelings on a situation.

A higher power has nothing to do with those words. We made those for ourselves to gauge events on and around this Earth.

Those events aren't beneficial to humans in any way. (I said before god is not all beneficial. That's what I assume people mean by good)

But explain to me why those incidents or situations would be 'bad' to a 'God' or higher power? Most of them are the result of human intervention somewhere along the line.

But isn't god supposed to be 'good?'

How are earthquakes and hurricanes direct results of human intervention?  And if god understands the destruction that these things cause, why doesn't he stop them from killing so many of his 'good' people? 

If your city is built around an area where natural disasters occur then it's almost safe to say you can get it. Shorelines, Faultlines, areas where fronts collide often. Your choice to live there, not the higher powers.

But god created everything, so he created those shorelines, fault lines and areas where fronts collide, right? And if we put faith and trust in our almighty god, we should have no worries living on the land he created...


Edit: You also say it is your own choice to live in those areas. Really?

What about 3rd world countries? Do you really think they have a choice on living there or somewhere safer? What about their children? Do they also have a choice?

 

[tree4twenty]

Originally Posted by PH3N0M3N0N

Originally Posted by lobotomybeats

Originally Posted by PH3N0M3N0N

Originally Posted by lobotomybeats

Originally Posted by PH3N0M3N0N

Originally Posted by Its That Dude

Just let that sink in a little. A life in which you never knew a higher being existed....

You've seen horrific,and atrocious things like war, genocide, murder, rape, e.g., Holocaust, 9/11, Katrina.

And today, I tell you that there is a God and that he is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good...would you believe me?

And who are we as lower beings to say what's good or bad? Do you mean all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-beneficial?

Good/Bad are perspectives on situations not concrete states of being.

 Show me a god  that doesn't see these things as being bad and I will show you every reason you should have hoped that there wasn't a god.  If god were to show his/her face, the hardest thing for believers would be dealing with the fact that they have essentially worshiped a complete a-hole.

I'm not seeing what you're seeing.

good and bad are words we use to associate our thoughts/feelings on a situation.

A higher power has nothing to do with those words. We made those for ourselves to gauge events on and around this Earth.

Those events aren't beneficial to humans in any way. (I said before god is not all beneficial. That's what I assume people mean by good)

But explain to me why those incidents or situations would be 'bad' to a 'God' or higher power? Most of them are the result of human intervention somewhere along the line.

But isn't god supposed to be 'good?'

How are earthquakes and hurricanes direct results of human intervention?  And if god understands the destruction that these things cause, why doesn't he stop them from killing so many of his 'good' people? 

If your city is built around an area where natural disasters occur then it's almost safe to say you can get it. Shorelines, Faultlines, areas where fronts collide often. Your choice to live there, not the higher powers.

But god created everything, so he created those shorelines, fault lines and areas where fronts collide, right? And if we put faith and trust in our almighty god, we should have no worries living on the land he created...


Edit: You also say it is your own choice to live in those areas. Really?

What about 3rd world countries? Do you really think they have a choice on living there or somewhere safer? What about their children? Do they also have a choice?

 

[its that dude]

Originally Posted by SIX50

OP, to answer your question I would probably not believe you if all you told me was "there is a god."

If you showed me a religious text and allowed me to sift through it, while also giving me a well thought out explanation then I may accept your idea but there is a significant possibility that I wouldn't.

If, however, you explained to me, after showing me religious texts and giving me an explanation, that the purpose of monotheistic religion is to achieve entry into heaven because this place is so incredibly f'd up, true happiness couldn't possibly be achieved here - then I think I would believe you.

So if I made up some stories about what God is and published it, only then would you believe me?

My words aren't credible unless they are published? You need stories to back them up?

I'm guessing you took every Dr. Seuss book to the heart huh...

 

[its that dude]

Originally Posted by SIX50

OP, to answer your question I would probably not believe you if all you told me was "there is a god."

If you showed me a religious text and allowed me to sift through it, while also giving me a well thought out explanation then I may accept your idea but there is a significant possibility that I wouldn't.

If, however, you explained to me, after showing me religious texts and giving me an explanation, that the purpose of monotheistic religion is to achieve entry into heaven because this place is so incredibly f'd up, true happiness couldn't possibly be achieved here - then I think I would believe you.

So if I made up some stories about what God is and published it, only then would you believe me?

My words aren't credible unless they are published? You need stories to back them up?

I'm guessing you took every Dr. Seuss book to the heart huh...

 

[pacers31]

i would still have the same views i have today. i'm agnostic. think about this for a second, we have over 6 billion people on this earth..are we really doing that bad? it only seems that way because we only hear the bad %$** that happens when we watch the news. but religion really just seems ******ed to me, i really don't understand how people can base all of their beliefs off of a @!+%%+@ book. who even wrote the bible? religious people tend to appear happier than non-religious people but i look at it as just a service to people who have no hope or no cause to lead a moral existence so they need to follow something to base their beliefs off of. but as much as religon has "helped" followers it's also responsible for millions of deaths..
and i also think it's arrogant of us to view jesus christ or god with human like characteristics but yet he's perfect and all powerful. IF god existed, i think we are all a part of him, he's omniprescent.

 

[pacers31]

i would still have the same views i have today. i'm agnostic. think about this for a second, we have over 6 billion people on this earth..are we really doing that bad? it only seems that way because we only hear the bad %$** that happens when we watch the news. but religion really just seems ******ed to me, i really don't understand how people can base all of their beliefs off of a @!+%%+@ book. who even wrote the bible? religious people tend to appear happier than non-religious people but i look at it as just a service to people who have no hope or no cause to lead a moral existence so they need to follow something to base their beliefs off of. but as much as religon has "helped" followers it's also responsible for millions of deaths..
and i also think it's arrogant of us to view jesus christ or god with human like characteristics but yet he's perfect and all powerful. IF god existed, i think we are all a part of him, he's omniprescent.

 

[its that dude]

Originally Posted by PUSHA C

you're speaking of God as if He is a human being... That's the biggest misconception of God. Why are you trying to understand why God does what He does when you aren't even NEAR His realm of thinking... You're a simple human being trying to understand God from your perspective. WE CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHY HE DOES WHAT HE DOES BECAUSE WE ARE HUMANS! Everything isn't always black and white like you make it out to be... but I don't expect you to understand anything I'm typing, i expect you to disregard it

You don't even understand what you're typing. You argue for logic, but then you completely throw it out the window.

You said yourself that you can't/don't know what God is about, but then you believe in God unequivocally. Where is the logic in that?

 

[its that dude]

Originally Posted by PUSHA C

you're speaking of God as if He is a human being... That's the biggest misconception of God. Why are you trying to understand why God does what He does when you aren't even NEAR His realm of thinking... You're a simple human being trying to understand God from your perspective. WE CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHY HE DOES WHAT HE DOES BECAUSE WE ARE HUMANS! Everything isn't always black and white like you make it out to be... but I don't expect you to understand anything I'm typing, i expect you to disregard it

You don't even understand what you're typing. You argue for logic, but then you completely throw it out the window.

You said yourself that you can't/don't know what God is about, but then you believe in God unequivocally. Where is the logic in that?

 

[wisepharoah]

My issue with talking to HUMANS about God is that we are speaking of something our brains cannot comprehend. We give God humanistic ego in values in religion= jealousy, revenge,love etc. These are emotions and how does the great architect of everything seen and unseen have emotion? Why would God create you and only promise ever lasting only life if your down on bended knee? The complexity of our reality and things outside of it are not accidental. Think of God as the ultimate form of creation and consciousness. In creation everything is made rather it be "good or "bad". Religion is a man made construct of spiritual slavery.......... PERIOD!

 

[wisepharoah]

My issue with talking to HUMANS about God is that we are speaking of something our brains cannot comprehend. We give God humanistic ego in values in religion= jealousy, revenge,love etc. These are emotions and how does the great architect of everything seen and unseen have emotion? Why would God create you and only promise ever lasting only life if your down on bended knee? The complexity of our reality and things outside of it are not accidental. Think of God as the ultimate form of creation and consciousness. In creation everything is made rather it be "good or "bad". Religion is a man made construct of spiritual slavery.......... PERIOD!

 

[pusha c]

and with that i also said

Originally Posted by pusha c

Everything isn't always black and white like you make it out to be

Which means (i think/believe) EVERYTHING can't be explained by logic but you disregard that because I was trying to explain something else which one could comprehend using logic. you don't believe there is anything you can't see/define and I'm just trying to get you to understand why I believe what I do.



and I fully understand every point I make young

 

[pusha c]

and with that i also said

Originally Posted by pusha c

Everything isn't always black and white like you make it out to be

Which means (i think/believe) EVERYTHING can't be explained by logic but you disregard that because I was trying to explain something else which one could comprehend using logic. you don't believe there is anything you can't see/define and I'm just trying to get you to understand why I believe what I do.



and I fully understand every point I make young

 

[wisepharoah]

My issue with talking to HUMANS about God is that we are speaking of something our brains cannot comprehend. We give God humanistic ego in values in religion= jealousy, revenge,love etc. These are emotions and how does the great architect of everything seen and unseen have emotion? Why would God create you and only promise ever lasting only life if your down on bended knee? The complexity of our reality and things outside of it are not accidental. Think of God as the ultimate form of creation and consciousness. In creation everything is made rather it be "good or "bad". Religion is a man made construct of spiritual slavery.......... PERIOD!

 

[wisepharoah]

My issue with talking to HUMANS about God is that we are speaking of something our brains cannot comprehend. We give God humanistic ego in values in religion= jealousy, revenge,love etc. These are emotions and how does the great architect of everything seen and unseen have emotion? Why would God create you and only promise ever lasting only life if your down on bended knee? The complexity of our reality and things outside of it are not accidental. Think of God as the ultimate form of creation and consciousness. In creation everything is made rather it be "good or "bad". Religion is a man made construct of spiritual slavery.......... PERIOD!

 

[wisepharoah]

My issue with talking to HUMANS about God is that we are speaking of something our brains cannot comprehend. We give God humanistic ego in values in religion= jealousy, revenge,love etc. These are emotions and how does the great architect of everything seen and unseen have emotion? Why would God create you and only promise ever lasting only life if your down on bended knee? The complexity of our reality and things outside of it are not accidental. Think of God as the ultimate form of creation and consciousness. In creation everything is made rather it be "good or "bad". Religion is a man made construct of spiritual slavery.......... PERIOD!