OFFICIAL COMIC BOOK THREAD

[rfx45]

All-Star Superman is a very good read, actually even the animation is pretty good though it might bore you if you are more used to the other DC animation films. The story itself is just good that even if you hate Superman, I'd recommend reading it just for the story alone. What Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? is also very good and probably one of the must read for Superman fans. Not entirely a Superman-centric book but my favorite thus far is Kingdom Come, I just love that book and suggest everyone read it. I'd add Superman for All Seasons to this must read too. These are my personal choice of the best of the best.

Other reads/arcs I'd recommend: For the Man Who Has Everything, Secret Identity, Last Son, Death & Return of Superman and What's So Funny About Truth, Justice & The American Way.

 

[donmega]

All-Star Superman is a very good read, actually even the animation is pretty good though it might bore you if you are more used to the other DC animation films. The story itself is just good that even if you hate Superman, I'd recommend reading it just for the story alone. What Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? is also very good and probably one of the must read for Superman fans. Not entirely a Superman-centric book but my favorite thus far is Kingdom Come, I just love that book and suggest everyone read it. I'd add Superman for All Seasons to this must read too. These are my personal choice of the best of the best.

Other reads/arcs I'd recommend: For the Man Who Has Everything, Secret Identity, Last Son, Death & Return of Superman and What's So Funny About Truth, Justice & The American Way.

Those are my top 2 Superman stories of all time

 

[swaynomics930]

i just got All New X-M #6 i need 5 they are taxing crazy at my shop, any help?? also got footclan #2 and uncanny #3

will get deadpool #4 and A+X #4 and the final issue of  the marvel world vs the avengers tomor most likely

 

[sunshineblotters]

I have actually read a superman comic and I used to read JLA and will probably pick up the new 52 tbps of JLA in time but I can safely say he is one of my least favorite characters from JL. I prefer hawkgirl over him. i simply can't get into him. Batman family of comics, Supergirl, and the Flash are the only DC characters I can deal with.

Supergirl appeals to me because she doesnt have that same god complex as Superman. But mostly I like how the comics question human society.

 

[rfx45]

I am not sure what you mean by God Complex, Superman doesn't have a God Complex, Superman actually has a Superman complex. The belief that he is responsible for everyone and it is in his hands to save everyone.

God Complex is knowing you have superior powers but also believe that they are above laws and rules and the government, Superman is not at all like that. Superman believes in what is right and what is wrong, he follows laws and rules and regulations, he tries to operate within limits and under the government even with his infinite powers. In the Dark Knight Returns, he is actually a US Government stooge.

With that said, how cool is that that Superman has his own complex named after him.

 

[sunshineblotters]

I mean he has too many powers and he is damn near impossible to defeat on paper. Whatever the word I am looking for

 

[mitchellicious]

Such BS. I am probably the biggest Superman fan in this board and I have a brother.

It was a joke dude. I still hate Superman though

 

[Master Zik]

Yeah I wasn't gonna even bother to pick a part that post. It's more a blanket this is my opinion on it and ppl are just left to agree or disagree. Dunno if anybody else would've posted but I wanted to see some support/examples from comics to back up the argument. There's definitely some things said I feel that were meaningless in including like Supes is a more recognizable "hero" than MJ or that everybody would choose Supes powers if they could (which isn't even necessarily true if you're talking superhero powers in general).

Overall the stuff ppl find interesting about Supes is just not worthwhile to me and I've read/have a good enough amount of of Superman comics to know overall I don't like the character. More times than not it's the writer and/or the villain making a Superman comics readable for me, that's usually the exception. There's that generational argument but overall the boy scout is the last thing I want to read about unless you're going to actually develop the boy scout over time and really challenge the concept with interesting stories. I also feel the Superman complex is wasted on him cuz of the whole holding back, boy scout, and humanization of his character.

 

[sunshineblotters]

Yeah I wasn't gonna even bother to pick a part that post. It's more a blanket this is my opinion on it and ppl are just left to agree or disagree. Dunno if anybody else would've posted but I wanted to see some support/examples from comics to back up the argument. There's definitely some things said I feel that were meaningless in including like Supes is a more recognizable "hero" than MJ or that everybody would choose Supes powers if they could (which isn't even necessarily true if you're talking superhero powers in general).

Overall the stuff ppl find interesting about Supes is just not worthwhile to me and I've read/have a good enough amount of of Superman comics to know overall I don't like the character. More times than not it's the writer and/or the villain making a Superman comics readable for me, that's usually the exception. There's that generational argument but overall the boy scout is the last thing I want to read about unless you're going to actually develop the boy scout over time and really challenge the concept with interesting stories. I also feel the Superman complex is wasted on him cuz of the whole holding back, boy scout, and humanization of his character.

this too

 

[rfx45]

I mean he has too many powers and he is damn near impossible to defeat on paper. Whatever the word I am looking for

On paper he look unbeatable but he has been beaten or come close to it. Again, most of his ridiculous powers are from the past, most have been toned down. He was given more weaknesses and even villains that can kill him (Gog killed Supes several times in one arc) but people still only hone in kryptonite.


All his powers are what makes Superman, well Superman. His talent just happens to be an ability within him, it's somewhat similar to Bats having all gadgets to get him through anything. You know like the meme that he can beat anyone if he has time to prepare? Supes is somewhat the same, he just has it all built up inside him. He doesn't just win in one panel of the comics, he still has to fight and figure things out.



I think it was reported before that Superman is a more recognizable figure (not just hero) than Michael Jordan for the mere fact that he has existed longer. I'll see if I can dig up or search that article.

About his complex, don't really want to drag it out but his Superman complex along with him holding back/humanization is a good emotional and psychological conflict within him, a struggle. That is more interesting than just having the complex and succeeding all the time, people already say that is too boring, I don't know how it is wasted if it provide new dimension to the character. It separates him from villains who has the same complex or more specifically a god complex.


As for my post, I clearly said it is my "piece" on why Superman is interesting, it is why I like him and what makes him my favorite. I never stated this is a fact and you should listen to it and bow before me. So yeah, people will either agree to disagree. Pick it apart if you want but even then it is your opinion at the end of the day, other can also agree or disagree on it as well.


About people choosing his powers, you may have misread or interpreted what I wrote differently. I didn't say everyone would choose his power over Hulks or Spider-mans, I said if you have the chance to have his power then you would and if you said you aren't interested then you might be lying, it is simple as that. Who wouldn't want all those powers if you could have it? I didn't say you'd choose his powers over everyone else's though.

 

[Master Zik]

Doctor Strange Confirmed for Marvel Movieverse Phase 3, hints at others

Yes

I mean he has too many powers and he is damn near impossible to defeat on paper. Whatever the word I am looking for

I think it was reported before that Superman is a more recognizable figure (not just hero) than Michael Jordan for the mere fact that he has existed longer. I'll see if I can dig up or search that article.

Again why does that matter? How is that a relevant part of your piece on why Superman is interesting?

About his complex, don't really want to drag it out but his Superman complex along with him holding back/humanization is a good emotional and psychological conflict within him, a struggle. That is more interesting than just having the complex and succeeding all the time, people already say that is too boring, I don't know how it is wasted if it provide new dimension to the character. It separates him from villains who has the same complex or more specifically a god complex.

It seems to me it took Tarantino to point out the complex for ppl to be wowed by it. Can you at least mention some comic book runs that make use of the complex in a good story? Cuz just saying the complex is a reason why Supes is interesting doesn't really count if it's just mentioned but we never see why it's interesting.

You're saying that his character and the complex make for a good struggle but the way I see it the two are opposed and don't mesh well. Hence, why the complex is mostly ignored and not focused on. Never said he'd be succeeding all the time without his current characterization. If anything he'd actually be more human cuz he'd think his choices that a human could never be faced with would be for the better and then we could really see him making mistakes and pushing the character in hard situations.

As for why his character as you described it is wasted on this complex is cuz it seems it's just there to be mentioned and never explored. Correct me if I'm wrong but are there comics really digging in to that complex as opposed to sticking to the script of Supes being the boy scout that always holds back and has been humanized? To me that holds back the complex of a super powered alien from a dead race that unlike his superhero colleagues puts on the mask of a human instead of the other way around. The fact that he grew up as a human and has human values/morals to me contradicts that he's an alien putting on the guise of being a human. At this point it's just an extended running plot line of ppl discovering his secret not the complex or the psychological struggle of his decisions. To me there is no struggle cuz he wasn't just raised human but human with good values and morals so he'd really never cross the line no matter how angry he gets. Batman only keeps an eye out for him cuz he's a paranoid ****. When things actually go down it's cuz Superman was brainwashed by Darkseid, Brainiac forcing him to, magic spell, mind control, alt Supes, etc. It's never Superman really addressing that complex and making a choice to be different because he'll always be the boy scout.

Seems the Superman Complex at this point in the New 52 right now would better be used with the Martian Manhunter than Superman.

As for my post, I clearly said it is my "piece" on why Superman is interesting, it is why I like him and what makes him my favorite.

I'm just saying Superman being a more popular "hero" or figure than Michael Jordan is irrelevant. Same goes for if you were offered Superman's powers that you think ppl would be lying if they declined.

I never stated this is a fact and you should listen to it and bow before me.

Never said you did.

Pick it apart if you want but even then it is your opinion at the end of the day, other can also agree or disagree on it as well.

Actually I said I wasn't gonna bother to pick it apart cuz the things I did point out didn't add to anything. The rest of the stuff that actually was on topic I either agreed or disagreed with

About people choosing his powers, you may have misread or interpreted what I wrote differently. I didn't say everyone would choose his power over Hulks or Spider-mans, I said if you have the chance to have his power then you would and if you said you aren't interested then you might be lying, it is simple as that. Who wouldn't want all those powers if you could have it? I didn't say you'd choose his powers over everyone else's though.

I should be clear then. I'm saying what does that matter at all? Reading your post I don't see how that's a point. If I was offered super powers of course I would take them. That doesn't make Superman special or really support an overall argument for why Superman is a good character.

 

[sunshineblotters]

If i could have it of course I would want his powers. I did say I liked Supergirl. But this is real life. If i want to get away from reality i dont want to be reading about Superman for all the reasons i said before. I havent picked up a Supes comic in a while though but those changes are not enough for me.

 

[rfx45]

Well the point of you taking his powers is that people complain he is overpowered but if you or other says themselves that they would not say no to the power, then it matters because it shows that you in some form or another would not mind being Superman, like I said, hate ir or love it, there are some characteristics and powers from Superman you wouldn't mind having.


As for his popularity, it is important because it shows that he is known and popular and recognizable. It also shows why he is hated, when you are popular there are always people who would hate you for that. Even though my post was to why Superman was interesting to me, it also delves into point of views of others and my opinion on it. I think it supports my points and you don't see i that way, just a difference in opinion.


Yeah you never said that I was saying were facts that has to be uphold but you implied it by saying it is a blanket statement. It's an opinion so obviously people will just agree to disagree.


Superman shows his struggles with his complex and humanity all the time, just the fact that he feels he needs to save the world but never wanting to kill his enemies is a struggle right there. It is the humanity in him that chooses. Few examples from the top of my head but not specific on where it actually happened on most of them:

In Batman/Superman: Supergirl from Krypton arc, at the end, he still didn't finish Darkseid even though he was about to kill him and destroy Earth.

There was an arc too when Manchester Black kidnapped Lois and told Supes that he killed her and Supes almost lost control and almost killed him but he didn't go through with it, why? Because the hero has to prevail by being good.

In Kingdom Come, he took control over everyone and just locked up all the villains, took responsibility to the nuke that killed a lot of heroes and villain in the Gulag. He was about to lose control and kill the humans but was stopped.

Superman also gave Superboy prime a second chance, the strongest villain the DCU has ever encountered.

But he has lost control before, in another arc where Zod killed a bunch of of Earthlings so he killed him (and Ursa) w/ a Kryptonite and he has regretted that decision for years iirc.

Again it is a constant struggle though not shown all the time, just like Superman holding his power but it is there and people are just waiting for him to cut lose. In the end, Supes just has to win over these matters, sadly. He is a hero and DCs flagship icon, it'll be difficult to turn him bad. I mean you saw the backlash of him being "emo" in the new 52 and that was just based on one pic.

 

[rfx45]

If i could have it of course I would want his powers. I did say I liked Supergirl. But this is real life. If i want to get away from reality i dont want to be reading about Superman for all the reasons i said before. I havent picked up a Supes comic in a while though but those changes are not enough for me.

That is fine, really. Again I just wrote the things I like and find interesting in Superman. Not everyone is going to agree. It is not to force an ideas to anyone, I initially said there is no point arguing over it but you guys said to go ahead so I did.

I mean you said he is not relatable in any way and I just pointed out that some can relate to him, not everyone but some sure can. You said you liked Marvels damaged characters but DC and Superman can be considered damaged too, he just happen to be "super" and indestructible so people assume he isn't damaged or can't have emotions because all he does is what is good. Now you say you want to get away from reality because Supes might be too relatable? That is not a knock on you, just confused. First you like relatable damaged characters of Marvel but do not want reality when reading comics?

4. Not relatable in any way
A huge appeal to me in comic books is somewhat relatable characters. Thats why I like Marvel, with their "damaged" characters. Stan Lee was genius when he "invented" that concept. Hell everyone laughed at the idea of spiderman when he made the character because that is the most damaged of all superheroes, now it seems to be the trend.

 

[spicedham]

Excellent posts on Supes RFX45.

 

[sunshineblotters]

That is fine, really. Again I just wrote the things I like and find interesting in Superman. Not everyone is going to agree. It is not to force an ideas to anyone, I initially said there is no point arguing over it but you guys said to go ahead so I did.

I mean you said he is not relatable in any way and I just pointed out that some can relate to him, not everyone but some sure can. You said you liked Marvels damaged characters but DC and Superman can be considered damaged too, he just happen to be "super" and indestructible so people assume he isn't damaged or can't have emotions because all he does is what is good. Now you say you want to get away from reality because Supes might be too relatable? That is not a knock on you, just confused. First you like relatable damaged characters of Marvel but do not want reality when reading comics?

No I didnt say Supes is too relatable. I didnt change my opinion. I was simply saying that those changes arent enough. I escape from reality with the unrealistic nature of comic books not because of their relatability. It's their relatability, as well as the way they project emotions, that keeps me hooked. But point made. And for what it is worth you are by far the best at defending superman than anyone I have ever met

 

[Master Zik]

Well the point of you taking his powers is that people complain he is overpowered but if you or other says themselves that they would not say no to the power, then it matters because it shows that you in some form or another would not mind being Superman, like I said, hate ir or love it, there are some characteristics and powers from Superman you wouldn't mind having.

Saying you would want Superman's powers in real life does not translate at all to the complaint that he as a fictional character is overpowered. Those are two very different things. When a character gets the criticism of being overpowered that usually points to how good of a story can be told without clear plot holes, ignoring his power set, etc. Has nothing to do with if ppl like the powers or wouldn't mind having them all. To me we all know Superman is overpowered is a fact. It's proven by DC rebooting out Silver Age Supes and continuing to scale down or change his powers after every reboot.

As for his popularity, it is important because it shows that he is known and popular and recognizable. It also shows why he is hated, when you are popular there are always people who would hate you for that. Even though my post was to why Superman was interesting to me, it also delves into point of views of others and my opinion on it. I think it supports my points and you don't see i that way, just a difference in opinion.

To me that has nothing to do with why he's an interesting character. Nobody is really arguing his popularity or claiming they hate Superman. I'm still not seeing what point it's supporting. If you're just trying to say popular characters are hated I'm not sure you'd get an argument.

Superman shows his struggles with his complex and humanity all the time, just the fact that he feels he needs to save the world but never wanting to kill his enemies is a struggle right there.

Every superhero deals with this though. That's just a blanket general point that could make any superhero interesting if that is in fact interesting to you.

It is the humanity in him that chooses. Few examples from the top of my head but not specific on where it actually happened on most of them:

In Batman/Superman: Supergirl from Krypton arc, at the end, he still didn't finish Darkseid even though he was about to kill him and destroy Earth.

There was an arc too when Manchester Black kidnapped Lois and told Supes that he killed her and Supes almost lost control and almost killed him but he didn't go through with it, why? Because the hero has to prevail by being good.

In Kingdom Come, he took control over everyone and just locked up all the villains, took responsibility to the nuke that killed a lot of heroes and villain in the Gulag. He was about to lose control and kill the humans but was stopped.

Superman also gave Superboy prime a second chance, the strongest villain the DCU has ever encountered.

But he has lost control before, in another arc where Zod killed a bunch of of Earthlings so he killed him (and Ursa) w/ a Kryptonite and he has regretted that decision for years iirc.

Are these examples really depicting a struggle or him just being the boy scout and doing the "right" thing?

Since I have KC, I'm looking at it I'm not sure you're completely right though. Superman gave up on humanity after society basically chose that other guys ways of doing things; killing villains. When he returns for the big fight he's still the same guy, there's no struggle, he even leaves it to a brainwashed Shazam to decide the fate of the human race and superhumans since he's both and Supes goes to sacrifice himself with the nuke until Shazam does it instead. The ending where he's about to kill some UN members is one of those times where he's really angry cuz almost every damn superhero is dead and he's stopped by the main character/narrator of KC. In the end he makes the same boy scoutish speech about working together with humanity and looking forward. I mean Superman in this story is only interesting if you actually think he was gonna kill anyone. Then in the final (12 pg or something) issue where things are back to normal but everybody is just older, Supes is banging WW, they have a kid and ask Batman to be the godfather cuz well they're smart enough to recognize he'll teach the kid things they can't.

Some of these other examples aren't even things I asked for btw. I wasn't really steering this towards Superman should kill.

Anyway, when the criticism of Supes being overpowered is brought up it's not cuz they think he should be killing all of his enemies. That's not the main problem with that issue but it ties in to this alleged struggle he apparently has when you also say he holds back and the kind of human he is. I still don't see how that jives with the superman complex.

Again it is a constant struggle though not shown all the time, just like Superman holding his power but it is there and people are just waiting for him to cut lose. In the end, Supes just has to win over these matters, sadly. He is a hero and DCs flagship icon, it'll be difficult to turn him bad. I mean you saw the backlash of him being "emo" in the new 52 and that was just based on one pic.

To me it's rarely shown. It seems to just fall in line with the typical heroes do not kill mantra ppl tend to preach or believe in. I can't call it a struggle when Supes is expected to do the right thing and then does it and when I say shown I mean like actual characterization about the decision to be more progressive or proactive with all that power, instead of just holding back under this ideal of being a boy scout and being more reactionary than anything else.

It's not about making him bad or emo though but I probably won't see Supes written with some character depth cuz he is DC's icon and he'll stay stagnant with these values save for out of continuity books.

 

[rfx45]

Popularity-wise, you seem to be too linear on what I posted. Just because my main point is on finding him interesting, doesn't mean all goes to that point. It is my take on Superman and also summarizes what and who he is to get a grasp of how big he is wand why I like him, hence saying there will likely be no other heroes w/o his existence. At this point, we are just going in circles so I'll add no further gas to the flame.


And no, not every hero deals with Superman complex. Bats himself would rather protect Gotham before anything else, he covets his city and willing to protect it before anything else. Superman on the other hand feels the need to protect everyone and everything at once. This is what he is known for and why the complex is named after him.


Those examples are indeed struggles, at least in my point of view. Here's the Manchester Black story:

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

If you can't see Supermans struggle not to kill Manchester Black in that one, then I don't know what to tell you. Killing is the one thing everyone tries to get Superman to do, similar to the Joker wanting Batman to kill as well but Bats seems more than willing to let someone die. You are right though, Superman isn't the only dealing with it but was is the first? Is he the most known for this complex/problem? I'd say yes. And other having the same problem doesn't make Supes less interesting and that is still a reason why I like him. No other heroes are stronger than him and he still has to deal with this. As you said, he couldn't even stand it when heroes started killing villains and people supported it, that is how strong his characteristic is. At this day and age, most will likely see that as a negative than positive.

Killing is pretty much what would beat Superman, it's his achilles heel so to speak. So yes, his Superman Complex and that part of his humanity is his biggest hurdle. Even if you weren't stirring to Supes killing, it is still his biggest complex, to save everyone w/o killing or even hurting a villain, he'd even save their life if needed. I am not sure what other humanity clash you need with his complex, killing someone is the biggest reason of all.

Back to KC, you just find Superman interesting if he was going to kill anyone, well I think that is either your Superman biased or you simply just do not find him interesting in the book. He went into exile because heroes has turned into killing bad guys. This in itself is a struggle, to leave as other kill each other, for his moral and what he stood for lose support from the people he protected. Then he returns and imposes his power and strength, somewhat of bullying the weaker ones and locking them up. That is a different Superman, a hero that has evolved. He still he is doing what is right but it is only right in his eyes. He decides to put matter into his own hands. Go back to the book, read through the part where he argues with WW and he says that maybe he should have let the humans decide their faith. When a riot breaks out, Supes was actually confused on what he did wrong, this is very unlike Superman again and again a struggle for him. He is unsure what is right or wrong, he just wants to do what is good for everyone. In the end, he let Batson/Shazaam decide, a human as he said earlier on to WW. He regrets what he has done because it what led them to the events that is about to happen, death or many metas and humans. In the end, he let his anger get into him and he is about to kill a lot of innocent humans, again this is a struggle Supes has been fighting and he has been pushed to the limit. Yes, he was talked down and eventually all is good in the world but the whole book is mostly about Superman doing what he thinks is right but just turns into what he dreaded the most, chaos and death. Then he is pushed to the edge to almost killing innocent humans, all while pretty much blaming himself to all the deaths that has occurred. To me, this is interesting, it is a side of Superman we are not used to and it shows his human side as well as his meta side, all from an alien who doesn't even really belong in the planet. His struggles as a hero who needs to save everyone while still being human and being good are all over the arc, he doesn't need a monologue asking himself if it is right or wrong on every other page to see his struggles. Again, I like this story of Supes and his evolution and in the end firther humanizing him in my opinion, you and other might not so you may not share the same sentiment or see the same things I see. Nothing wrong with that but this are the type of Superman stories I like and find interesting.

 

[erickm713]

This is the first time I've checked this thread and saw over 20 unread replies

 

[Master Zik]

I thought this started cuz ppl said Supes wasn't interesting. Not that he wasn't popular or some weird logic where wanting his powers means he's not overpowered or interesting. That's why I said those things were irrelevant.

Like I said before I was not steering this in to a Superman should kill or that Superman never struggles with whether or not he should kill a villain. I don't know how we got here off what anybody has said. I'm not arguing that so I'll just ignore it.

As far as I see it killing has nothing to do with the superman complex. You seem to be creating another argument or trying to show something I wasn't ever disputing. Plenty superheroes deal with the struggle of whether they should kill or not. Batman deal with that every damn time Joker shows up. It's a big thing his fans are discussing in his current event. Saying not killing is Supes biggest hurdle does not make him interesting when that's the same thing for Batman, Spider-Man, etc.

Back to KC, you just find Superman interesting if he was going to kill anyone, well I think that is either your Superman biased or you simply just do not find him interesting in the book.

What? When did I say this? I'm not sure what you're saying here. It's been my stance that I don't find Superman the character interesting in general with only few exceptions. In KC, he's still the same guy. What I asked for was examples of stories dealing with the Superman complex, not examples of him struggling to kill which has nothing to do with the superman complex. Seems you're either confusing two different things or responding to something I never said or asked for. If Supes struggling to kill is response to the whole he's overpowered thing or that he holds back okay but I didn't ask for that that wasn't the point I was making. All ppl were saying about being overpowered as a criticism is how it hurts the story.

I'll try to say it again: Superman's characterization as a boy scout, raised as a human with good human morals/values, and the fact that he's always holding back does not mesh well with the Superman complex. Due to those traits it kills any interest the superman complex would have if it was even used but like I said it isn't used unless you can tell me what comics they show up in. Just to be clear we're talking about the superman complex brought up in Kill Bill Vol. 2 which you originally referenced and I'll quote:

Bill: Superman stands alone. Superman did not become Superman, Superman was born Superman. When Superman wakes up in the morning, he is Superman. His alter ego is Clark Kent. His outfit with the big red S is the blanket he was wrapped in as a baby when the Kents found him. Those are his clothes. What Kent wears, the glasses the business suit, that's the costume. That's the costume Superman wears to blend in with us. Clark Kent is how Superman views us. And what are the characteristics of Clark Kent? He's weak, unsure of himself... he's a coward. Clark Kent is Superman's critique on the whole human race, sort of like Beatrix Kiddo and Mrs. Tommy Plumpton.

I haven't seen that take on Superman in the comics at all and like I said it's not the other definition of a superman complex where he feels he's responsible for everyone. Seems somewhere along the line you confused the two but maybe it was my mistake for saying superman complex, I probably should've said superman syndrome. Cuz that's definitely not what QT is conveying in the movie.

If it was just that then we'd get back to that not being all that interesting since Spider-Man's origins are based directly off that as far as responsibility goes unlike Superman's. Spidey manages to do the same thing but continually show his guilt about it all the time. Captain America and Daredevil face that all the time too. Batman is facing it now.

And no, not every hero deals with Superman complex. Bats himself would rather protect Gotham before anything else, he covets his city and willing to protect it before anything else. Superman on the other hand feels the need to protect everyone and everything at once. This is what he is known for and why the complex is named after him.

Okay this simply not true, just about on every count. Bats limits his superman complex to Gotham cuz he's human. If what you said was true he wouldn't be apart of the JL if he only cared about Gotham and would rather protect one city before anything else. So I don't know where you're making that up from. You couldn't show me a time where another city or world was in trouble and Batman said "Nah I'd rather go catch the Mad Hatter, he just escaped Arkham." As far as Superman feels the need to protect everyone, that's not shown any more in the comics than it is for Batman or Green Lantern nor is he actually capable of that, that's just a deluded guy with a bleeding heart.

The reason the complex is named after him is completely different:

The expression seems to have been first been used by Dr. Fredric Wertham in his 1954 book Seduction of the Innocent and his testimony before the Senate Subcommittee on Juvenile Delinquency. He claimed that children reading Superman comic books were exposed to "phantasies of sadistic joy in seeing other people punished over and over again while you yourself remain immune

http://www.crimeboss.com/history03-2.html

That's why it was named after him and that has nothing to do with feeling responsible for everyone, it's the exact opposite. So I'm not sure where you're getting all of that from.

 

[rfx45]

Like I've said before my point isn't merely about Supes being interesting, it provides a whole overview of Superman, it adds to the things I was saying to show some scope. If you really can't get it and entirely focus on "Superman is interesting or not" point only, then just ignore it.

As for you taking his powers, again it may not make Superman interesting to you but to me I see it that if it is a power you would like to have if offered, then there is some little shred of interest there. No need to expand on that. That part is over in the argument because again it will just go around in circles.

So those 2 points are done with, just a matter of different point of views, can we agree on that? Stop honing in on one single point of the discussion, view it in a broader sense, as if you are reading a book that shows some scope of the character and a brief history.


Anyways...

The discussion was on Superman complex (wanting to save everyone) vs. his struggles with humanity (not killing or hurting). So yes, killing is a necessary part of the topic. As I explained, yes Bats is not willing to kill but he is willing to make compromises, he'd injure the criminal if it gets him information while Supes won't, he'll capture the assailant unharmed. This is a conflict between them most of the time and that is their difference. In Batman/Superman with Supergirl once again, Bats threatened to destroy Apocalypse so that Darkseid releases Kara, was it a bluff? Most likely but Supes would not risk that, again difference. Bats is willing to cross the line and even beating Joker close to death, as long as the enemy survives, Bats is good with it.


The Tarantino quote isn't really related to his complex vs. humanity discussion and that is why I ignored it nor have I mentioned it in this current discussion. I just pointed out that it is a good point that many may not have seen. This is all I wrote about it, not a mention of Superman complex in that paragraph, don't confuse it with the word "complexity" I used in that paragraph that merely means his characteristics are not as simple, it is complex or to use another word more complicated.

Another thing, agree to disagree about it but it is worth a mention, Tarantinos take on Superman. Kal Els alter ego is Clark not Superman. What he really is is the strong and confident Superman and the bumbling , slouching reporter is what he dresses up as to blend in with the humans. Not many heroes has that complexity in their story and this take is interesting to me. Sometimes he does want that simple life of being human but he can't hide for what he truly is.

Superman complex actually might be integrated (or the grey area) of his humanity. It is due to his humanity that he has this Superman complex of having to save people so it intersects but also interrupts. But again, I don't know how you can say it is less interesting to simply have a Superman complex that has a humanity rearing its ugly head than just simply having to deal with Just the Superman complex. Like you said, Spiderman, DD and Bats has the same complex but you find it interesting but with Supes it isn't? Because he adds humanity by trying not to kill at the same time, which Bats and SM and DD deals with as well? Something doesn't add up there. Because they show their regret more often?

I think trying to save everyone while holding back is more interesting than not holding back while trying to save everyone, there is inner conflict there. You want to see it, I just showed you panel for panel of it with Manchester Black but you do not want to accept Supes not wanting killing as part of his humanity so there is no winning in that argument. Again the discussion is Superman complex (saving everyone) vs his humanity (not killing or even injuring anyone to save people) and that is exactly it in those panels.


Also, Superman doesn't really need to face this problem all the time, he's been there and done that for the past 75 years. He just got another reboot in the New 52 and really just trying to establish who he is for the next generation seems to be the main goal, I admit I've read a little here and there for the New 52, nothing major to argue over it so I'll leave that to the others.


As for this...

Back to KC, you just find Superman interesting if he was going to kill anyone, well I think that is either your Superman biased or you simply just do not find him interesting in the book.

What? When did I say this? I'm not sure what you're saying here.

The ending where he's about to kill some UN members is one of those times where he's really angry cuz almost every damn superhero is dead and he's stopped by the main character/narrator of KC. In the end he makes the same boy scoutish speech about working together with humanity and looking forward. I mean Superman in this story is only interesting if you actually think he was gonna kill anyone.

Really, at this point it just goes around in circles again, you say the same thing and I reply with the same thing and so on and so forth. We are just going to have to agree to disagree or else it will not end unless some just stops replying so that will be me, unless you provide a different subject for discussion that is different from Tarantino or Superman complex or killing or whatever.

 

[rfx45]

Okay this simply not true, just about on every count. Bats limits his superman complex to Gotham cuz he's human. If what you said was true he wouldn't be apart of the JL if he only cared about Gotham and would rather protect one city before anything else. So I don't know where you're making that up from. You couldn't show me a time where another city or world was in trouble and Batman said "Nah I'd rather go catch the Mad Hatter, he just escaped Arkham." As far as Superman feels the need to protect everyone, that's not shown any more in the comics than it is for Batman or Green Lantern nor is he actually capable of that, that's just a deluded guy with a bleeding heart.

I never said Bats would not save the world if needed, of course he would. But put it up with other cities and he will save Gotham first and foremost instead of solving it all at the same time. Simple as that. You hone in on too much specificity w/o reading the whole context.

 

[Master Zik]

Okay this simply not true, just about on every count. Bats limits his superman complex to Gotham cuz he's human. If what you said was true he wouldn't be apart of the JL if he only cared about Gotham and would rather protect one city before anything else. So I don't know where you're making that up from. You couldn't show me a time where another city or world was in trouble and Batman said "Nah I'd rather go catch the Mad Hatter, he just escaped Arkham." As far as Superman feels the need to protect everyone, that's not shown any more in the comics than it is for Batman or Green Lantern nor is he actually capable of that, that's just a deluded guy with a bleeding heart.

I never said Bats would not save the world if needed, of course he would. But put it up with other cities and he will save Gotham first and foremost instead of solving it all at the same time. Simple as that. You hone in on too much specificity w/o reading the whole context.

What are you basing this off of? It just seems like something you're making up to prop up Superman. You don't need to put down batman to make Superman look better for your argument. I'm gonna have take this as a bias opinion since I doubt you can actually back this up with anything from the comics.

DC have their superheroes in different cities and basically they're the protectors of it but they've shown plenty times over to save the world or other lands or cities. There's no ranking of which would get priority. Bats has his connection to Gotham cuz that's where he's from, that's where his parents died, and that's a place that was a **** hole that his father was trying to make a better place and he's continuing the legacy. However, if you read Batman Inc. he's working to save the whole world all the time.

Like I've said before my point isn't merely about Supes being interesting

Going off what you said in that first post that really wasn't what you said you were going to do and that's why it seemed like extra unneeded stuff that had nothing to really do with why Superman was being said not to be interesting but w/e.

As for this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Zik View Post

Quote:
Back to KC, you just find Superman interesting if he was going to kill anyone, well I think that is either your Superman biased or you simply just do not find him interesting in the book.
What? When did I say this? I'm not sure what you're saying here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Zik View Post

The ending where he's about to kill some UN members is one of those times where he's really angry cuz almost every damn superhero is dead and he's stopped by the main character/narrator of KC. In the end he makes the same boy scoutish speech about working together with humanity and looking forward. I mean Superman in this story is only interesting if you actually think he was gonna kill anyone.


Really, at this point it just goes around in circles again, you say the same thing and I reply with the same thing and so on and so forth. We are just going to have to agree to disagree or else it will not end unless some just stops replying so that will be me, unless you provide a different subject for discussion that is different from Tarantino or Superman complex or killing or whatever.

In that quote I did not say "you just find Superman interesting if he was going to kill anyone" or w/e you're trying to say I'm saying here. W/e that is I'm not saying what you think. It was hard to understand as a sentence and that's why I asked what? and say I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I'm still not.

When I say he's only interesting if you think he was gonna kill anyone. I'm being sarcastic. I'm saying it's not a struggle cuz Supes wasn't going to kill. It's the cliche scene of character gets really mad and pushed to the brink only to be brought back and not kill, you showed the same scene with Lois "dying". What I'm saying here is if there is a real struggle you'd have to think the character is capable of actually choosing either option which wasn't conveyed in the scene in KC.

The Tarantino quote isn't really related to his complex vs. humanity discussion and that is why I ignored it nor have I mentioned it in this current discussion. I just pointed out that it is a good point that many may not have seen. This is all I wrote about it, not a mention of Superman complex in that paragraph, don't confuse it with the word "complexity" I used in that paragraph that merely means his characteristics are not as simple, it is complex or to use another word more complicated.

I'm not confusing it with the word complexity. I'm the one that used superman complex in response. I'm not sure why you brought up Tarantino at all if you didn't want to discuss it. What he brings up in Kill Bill Vol. 2 has nothing to do with a superman complex. I was just calling his take on the Superman the Superman complex but like I said I should've said syndrome but either way Tarantino's take which is actually interesting is not used in the comics at all. The first and only time it's brought up is in that movie. It gives fans something to think about and is interesting but unfortunately it doesn't make Superman interesting unless you actually see Superman dealing with it.

As far as Manchester Black, I'll say again I'm not talking about Superman killing or anything like that or the struggle not to kill. You keep bringing that up and thinking I did I guess. It has nothing to do with me not wanting to see it. Like I've said several times Superman is not the only hero that deal with struggling to kill his enemies. Plenty of superheroes do. I just said so in my last post. If that makes Supes interesting it makes a whole lot more interesting.

 

[rfx45]

The reason the complex is named after him is completely different:

The expression seems to have been first been used by Dr. Fredric Wertham in his 1954 book Seduction of the Innocent and his testimony before the Senate Subcommittee on Juvenile Delinquency. He claimed that children reading Superman comic books were exposed to "phantasies of sadistic joy in seeing other people punished over and over again while you yourself remain immune

http://www.crimeboss.com/history03-2.html

That's why it was named after him and that has nothing to do with feeling responsible for everyone, it's the exact opposite. So I'm not sure where you're getting all of that from.

Well I actually just went with the first sentence where you got your source. In comic book hero sense, it makes sense to Superman. It also clearly states that it started from that but just like trends and other words, the meaning and term has evolved and changed or just has a different meaning.

In business, Superman Complex also means you have do to everything and feel responsible for everything.
Superman Complex in business.
Another article on Superman Complex in business.

 

[rfx45]

Okay this simply not true, just about on every count. Bats limits his superman complex to Gotham cuz he's human. If what you said was true he wouldn't be apart of the JL if he only cared about Gotham and would rather protect one city before anything else. So I don't know where you're making that up from. You couldn't show me a time where another city or world was in trouble and Batman said "Nah I'd rather go catch the Mad Hatter, he just escaped Arkham." As far as Superman feels the need to protect everyone, that's not shown any more in the comics than it is for Batman or Green Lantern nor is he actually capable of that, that's just a deluded guy with a bleeding heart.

I never said Bats would not save the world if needed, of course he would. But put it up with other cities and he will save Gotham first and foremost instead of solving it all at the same time. Simple as that. You hone in on too much specificity w/o reading the whole context.

What are you basing this off of? It just seems like something you're making up to prop up Superman. You don't need to put down batman to make Superman look better for your argument. I'm gonna have take this as a bias opinion since I doubt you can actually back this up with anything from the comics.

Batman : Dark Knight Returns. Superman tried to save the US from the Nuke. Bats save Gotham and had no intention to help the other. He was fine with Gotham perfectly intact.

Kingdom Come, his main goal was to protect Gotham, his BatBots circled the city and really just let Superman do what he wants as long as he doesn't bother Gotham.