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Toriyama just writing as he goes man lol
This the same guy that forgot 18's hair color lol
This the same guy that forgot 18's hair color lol
Official DragonBall Z Thread. R.I.P Akira Toriyama. You will be missed
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No they didn't.
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Yeah I kind of remember that being said to. Might be tripping though.
Maybe it was just them saying that he would no longer NEED to go SSJ since Mystic>SSJ
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That's it
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DBZ thread fluorishing rn 
What made you say that Gohan layered SSJ on top of Mystic when he fought Goku?
Just rewatched the clip and looks like he just went straight ssj
What made you say that Gohan layered SSJ on top of Mystic when he fought Goku?
Just rewatched the clip and looks like he just went straight ssj
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It was actually neither statements. Our memory got the best of us. But even still
He told him to "transform into that super saiyan thing you do"
Gohan no longer had the ability to transform into a super saiyan after that point. He merely powered up to his new mystic state
Even Gou says shortly after "he's much stronger than he ever was as a super saiyan"
This whole "stacked powers" thing that he's able to do now is something that is being speculated. He hasn't been shown turning super saiyan and mystic at the same time. At least not yet. And if he does, that'll be another moment dbz goes back and rewrites over its own rules
He turns mystic in the intro and super saiyan in the show. That doesn't mean it's stacked abilities.
Mystic is completely different from the kaioken. The kaioken is not a transformation. It's a technique. Which is why Goku can use it on top of a transformation. Mystic isn't a technique. It was a (what was intended to be) permanent state for Gohan
He told him to "transform into that super saiyan thing you do"
Gohan no longer had the ability to transform into a super saiyan after that point. He merely powered up to his new mystic state
Even Gou says shortly after "he's much stronger than he ever was as a super saiyan"
This whole "stacked powers" thing that he's able to do now is something that is being speculated. He hasn't been shown turning super saiyan and mystic at the same time. At least not yet. And if he does, that'll be another moment dbz goes back and rewrites over its own rules
He turns mystic in the intro and super saiyan in the show. That doesn't mean it's stacked abilities.
Mystic is completely different from the kaioken. The kaioken is not a transformation. It's a technique. Which is why Goku can use it on top of a transformation. Mystic isn't a technique. It was a (what was intended to be) permanent state for Gohan
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Yep. Old Kai tells him that activating it is just like activating SSJ and there's never any talk of it again. Hence the debate about whether or not Mystic is it or whether or not the forms can be layered, as I detailed above.
DBZ thread fluorishing rn
What made you say that Gohan layered SSJ on top of Mystic when he fought Goku?
Just rewatched the clip and looks like he just went straight ssj
Just the same reason I said he did it in BoG, for the God ritual. Since, beforehand, it looks like he's still got access to and is using the Mystic transformation, after which he then goes SSJ1. It's possible that he was using Mystic and then de-activated it to just use SSJ1, but I just don't see why he'd bother. Visually, the SSJ1 he uses against his dad also looks slightly different than his SSJ1 state, appearing to by him with the Mystic hairstyle, but colored gold.
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damn gotta catch up on dbz. havent watched since the possessed goku got destroyed
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This is also speculation. As i've detailed above, none of the Kais say that Gohan can't use his SS transformations anymore or after attaining Mystic. They describe Mystic as a transformation, which visually only affects his Base form and deals with the latent potential within his body. Mystic is different from Kaio Ken, but its also different from the SSJ transformations as well, not dealing with any kind of multiplication of the users power, but with drawing out the power that the user naturally has. In comparison, SSJ is far more like Kaio Ken than Mystic is, since it multiplies whatever the user's Base power is by a certain, fixed amount. Goku's statement then in no way says anything about whether or not Gohan can still use the SS states. It says the obvious, that the ritual has made his Base form superior to his previous power levels at any given point in time, including when he'd been a Super Saiyan.
But, I never said any of this as if it was a fact and have been clear that it's all just speculation. Nearly everything about Mystic is.
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Could be just normal SSJ and it looks that way because of his current haircut though
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Also possible. Again, i'm not stating any of this to be a fact.
Gohan having Mystic in BoG, losing Mystic, SSJ layering, regaining Mystic through training, Mystic being a transformation, etc. This is all just my interpretation of Gohan in Z and Super respectively.
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From DB wiki...
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View media item 2332793This is a pic of how I see the mystic form with a little bit of changes. Every Saiyan has pool of "potential". Different transformations or triggers grants that Saiyan access to more of that potential. Where I disagree with the grapic is I believe mystic gohan is stronger than just further transforming to unlock more potentials that clear because mystic gohan is stronger than ssj3 goku and gotenks I believe. Simple multipliers Don't justify that jump in power. Also mystic isn't his base, it's a triggered transformation. He has to go mystic to access that level of power.
As for kaioken, since it's not a transformation but a kai amplifier and has nothing to do with the users potential it could definitely be used with Mystic form in my opinion. As for gohan going SSB, I doubt that would happen because unlike goku and vegeta the super Saiyan form doesn't give him access to all of his power. But Theoretically if he can gain access to godly Kai he could pair the god ki with his mystic form
As for kaioken, since it's not a transformation but a kai amplifier and has nothing to do with the users potential it could definitely be used with Mystic form in my opinion. As for gohan going SSB, I doubt that would happen because unlike goku and vegeta the super Saiyan form doesn't give him access to all of his power. But Theoretically if he can gain access to godly Kai he could pair the god ki with his mystic form
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this **** is confusing but by far a better discussion than the "Kid Buu v Super Buu" bs
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Db wiki is fan made and fan maintained.
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Yeah i know but they brought interesting points.
Your graph makes sense but it's treating mystic/ultimate as a base amp when it seems to be a triggered transformation
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Man **** all this ****. Makes no damn sense
Gohan was nerfed and now they're trying to catch him up by going back on all the crap they wrote.
I should have accepted it for what it was before we even started this discussion.
They're treating the Mystic form as they did god mode for Goku apparently and allowing Gohan to jump from Mystic to Ultimate SSJ or "Mystic" SSJ
but all of this nonsense could have been avoided, had they just allowed Gohan to stay at Mystic being his strongest potential unlocked level and treating him like Hit, and him growing stronger without the use of a hair color transformation.
They set the foundation, and wasted it. Which is why Gohan is always looked at as a wasted character. And thats why he's a scrub.
Gohan was nerfed and now they're trying to catch him up by going back on all the crap they wrote.
I should have accepted it for what it was before we even started this discussion.
They're treating the Mystic form as they did god mode for Goku apparently and allowing Gohan to jump from Mystic to Ultimate SSJ or "Mystic" SSJ
but all of this nonsense could have been avoided, had they just allowed Gohan to stay at Mystic being his strongest potential unlocked level and treating him like Hit, and him growing stronger without the use of a hair color transformation.
They set the foundation, and wasted it. Which is why Gohan is always looked at as a wasted character. And thats why he's a scrub.
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Yeah it would have made sense if Gohan's mystic amp'd his base and kept that power stagnant..
Then the whole "i cant sustain ssj"..
Then the whole "i cant sustain ssj"..
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True, I don't think it's that simple to write it off though. I'm looking at it now and there are actually quite a few citations for various bits of information on it, similar to a research paper. For example
"Daizenshuu 2 states that Gohan's dormant power is bottomless and also says that Gohan's potential growth is greater than his father Goku's due to being the son of a Saiyan and Earthling. It also states that after his potential was released by Old Kai, Gohan is still capable of becoming a Super Saiyan as shown in Battle of Gods and Dragon Ball Super, but even without utilizing the form he is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks."
The Daizenshuu of course is the official Dragon Ball encyclopedia. The problem is though that there doesn't seem to be an online version for me to then search to actually read the book myself
Don't suppose anyone has a copy by any chance? Dragon Ball wiki actually reminds me of the Star Wars wiki.
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Yeah just replace the word "base" in the right graph with mystic and that's basically what I think. Although based on what elder Kai said the right circle should be bigger than the left. Unless "their limitations" may also just refer to gohans inability to transform further (aside from mystic) and access more of that potential.
Elder Kaiōshin: I can take anyone who is good at what they do, and using my supernatural powers, draw out their latent ability waaay waaay past their limitations.
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Well if the officials say it is, then it is.
Still dumb, but it is.
Still dumb, but it is.
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Well, back to the original point, Gohan's been training and the potential for improvement and good showings is there Future Trunks went from weaker than SS2 Teen Gohan to rivaling SSB Goku and Vegeta. If there's hope for him, there's hope for anyone.
Future Trunks went from weaker than SS2 Teen Gohan to rivaling SSB Goku and Vegeta. If there's hope for him, there's hope for anyone.
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True, I don't think it's that simple to write it off though. I'm looking at it now and there are actually quite a few citations for various bits of information on it, similar to a research paper. For example
"Daizenshuu 2 states that Gohan's dormant power is bottomless and also says that Gohan's potential growth is greater than his father Goku's due to being the son of a Saiyan and Earthling. It also states that after his potential was released by Old Kai, Gohan is still capable of becoming a Super Saiyan as shown in Battle of Gods and Dragon Ball Super, but even without utilizing the form he is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks."
The Daizenshuu of course is the official Dragon Ball encyclopedia. The problem is though that there doesn't seem to be an online version for me to then search to actually read the book myself
Dragon Ball wiki actually reminds me of the Star Wars wiki.
Better get on Twitter and ask herms
That's the problem with what the wiki. That section in particular is clearly dated and flawed You can tell because it infers that that 1. Gohan never skipped a step and didn't loose access to his mystic form and Also assumes that mystic is his base. Neither of which is in the daizenshuu 2. That would also make him at that point in BOG stronger than he was in Z. The issue with that is that we know from the revival arc which was like 6 months later (i think) that he regressed and lost some power.
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Well, back to the original point, Gohan's been training and the potential for improvement and good showings is there
Lol jay you're the voice of reason out here b. They won't take the words from me
it's gotta come from you
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I personally think Gohan will get a comeback lol
