OFFICIAL HOCKEY THREAD: NHL, KHL, NCAA, IIHL

[osh kosh bosh]

Originally Posted by DoubleJs07

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by DeadsetAce

attracting fans isn't the reason fighting is needed or why it's a good to have in the NHL...

You are right, there isn't a single good reason, it's a relic of another time that shouldn't exist, it's good for nothing besides melting the brains of your work force and incurring lawsuits.

 

Yea, OK....

It's a GREAT way for players to police themselves and others on the ice.  Take out the fighting and you get more stick infractions, which are 10x worse than taking a knuckle to the jaw.  Fighting keeps the game honest.  I knew there would be an overreaction from many people as soon as Asham KO'd Beagle.....

Horses %%!# that people have been pedaling for a long time.

1. Most of the really egregious stick infractions and dirty play get committed by these "enforcers" anyways and most of  them wouldn't be on the ice if fighting was abolished  because they have no actual hockey skill.

2.  Football is the a sport that involves more consistent physical contact than Hockey, yet I don't see this clamoring need for fighting, has football just degraded into this haven for dirty play that destroys the fabric of the game? If football a sport where 300 pound line men crash into each other on every play can survive without fighting hockey can too.  The inssitenace on keeping it is nothing more than a nod to tradition because it would be unreasonable to argue that player X is going to start taking a lot more team harming penalties because he doesn't have a fighter.

Look at this if what your saying actually was reality and players were more likely to commit stick infractions without the threat of fighting so by that logic teams that rarely fight and don't really have goons should have drawn more penalties against them.

[table][tr][td]RK[/td] [td]TEAM[/td] [td]GP[/td] [td]4v5_TOI[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1[/td] [td]PIT[/td] [td]9[/td] [td]56.2[/td] [/tr][tr][td]2[/td] [td]OTT[/td] [td]7[/td] [td]53.5[/td] [/tr][tr][td]3[/td] [td]VAN[/td] [td]7[/td] [td]50.6[/td] [/tr][tr][td]4[/td] [td]PHI[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]50.4[/td] [/tr][tr][td]5[/td] [td]T.B[/td] [td]7[/td] [td]48.6[/td] [/tr][tr][td]6[/td] [td]NYR[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]47.6[/td] [/tr][/table]
These are the top 5 penalty drawing teams this year, it has no correlation to the teams that fight the most.


It degrades the quality of the game by having teams carry completely unskilled hockey players on there rosters

Penalties are the only deterrents to dirty play, it's that simple, not the threat for the other teams goon going and fighting your goon, and if unlike a fighting major they actually hurt your team.

Originally Posted by bjm5295

if its that simple, then we might as well abolish boxing as a sport.

aka its not that simple.

Two trained fighters agreeing to fight each other under set of predetermined and detailed rules, with safety equipment like gloves is in no way like two untrained fighters bare knuckle boxing on a sheet of ice, with skates on, with no holds barred.

The fact that you would even compare the two is baffling.

Also to the proponents of hockey fighting, as players become bigger, and stronger we are approaching the day when a fighter dies on the ice will you be in support of it then? Once somebody dies on the ice can we get rid of it? How many fighters have to die off the ice before we can get rid of? What exactly has to give, because the reasons that keep getting thrown at me simply aren't true and we anecdotal and statistical evidence that shows that.

 

[doublejs07]

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by DoubleJs07

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

You are right, there isn't a single good reason, it's a relic of another time that shouldn't exist, it's good for nothing besides melting the brains of your work force and incurring lawsuits.

 

Yea, OK....

It's a GREAT way for players to police themselves and others on the ice.  Take out the fighting and you get more stick infractions, which are 10x worse than taking a knuckle to the jaw.  Fighting keeps the game honest.  I knew there would be an overreaction from many people as soon as Asham KO'd Beagle.....

Horses %%!# that people have been pedaling for a long time.

1. Most of the really egregious stick infractions and dirty play get committed by these "enforcers" anyways and most of  them wouldn't be on the ice if fighting was abolished  because they have no actual hockey skill.

2.  Football is the a sport that involves more consistent physical contact than Hockey, yet I don't see this clamoring need for fighting, has football just degraded into this haven for dirty play that destroys the fabric of the game? If football a sport where 300 pound line men crash into each other on every play can survive without fighting hockey can too.  The inssitenace on keeping it is nothing more than a nod to tradition because it would be unreasonable to argue that player X is going to start taking a lot more team harming penalties because he doesn't have a fighter.

Look at this if what your saying actually was reality and players were more likely to commit stick infractions without the threat of fighting so by that logic teams that rarely fight and don't really have goons should have drawn more penalties against them.

[table][tr][td]RK[/td][td]TEAM[/td][td]GP[/td][td]4v5_TOI[/td][/tr][tr][td]1[/td][td]PIT[/td][td]9[/td][td]56.2[/td][/tr][tr][td]2[/td][td]OTT[/td][td]7[/td][td]53.5[/td][/tr][tr][td]3[/td][td]VAN[/td][td]7[/td][td]50.6[/td][/tr][tr][td]4[/td][td]PHI[/td][td]6[/td][td]50.4[/td][/tr][tr][td]5[/td][td]T.B[/td][td]7[/td][td]48.6[/td][/tr][tr][td]6[/td][td]NYR[/td][td]5[/td][td]47.6[/td][/tr][/table]
These are the top 5 penalty drawing teams this year, it has no correlation to the teams that fight the most.


It degrades the quality of the game by having teams carry completely unskilled hockey players on there rosters

Penalties are the only deterrents to dirty play, it's that simple, not the threat for the other teams goon going and fighting your goon, and if unlike a fighting major they actually hurt your team.

Originally Posted by bjm5295

if its that simple, then we might as well abolish boxing as a sport.

aka its not that simple.

Two trained fighters agreeing to fight each other under set of predetermined and detailed rules, with safety equipment like gloves is in no way like two untrained fighters bare knuckle boxing on a sheet of ice, with skates on, with no holds barred.

The fact that you would even compare the two is baffling.

Also to the proponents of hockey fighting, as players become bigger, and stronger we are approaching the day when a fighter dies on the ice will you be in support of it then? Once somebody dies on the ice can we get rid of it? How many fighters have to die off the ice before we can get rid of? What exactly has to give, because the reasons that keep getting thrown at me simply aren't true and we anecdotal and statistical evidence that shows that.

You're talking about some hypothetical @+##%%!!.  What if a fighter dies on the ice??? Really??? 

  Maybe hockey shouldn't be played on skates since Richard Zednik and CLint Malarchuk both came minutes away from dying due to having their necks sliced.  It goes on and on. 

If you're talking about eliminating the GOON from rosters...fine.  I can understand that.  Personally, I'd much rather have a guy like Matt Hendricks on a 4th line who can not only throw hands, but be the first skater in a SO because he's got actual skills. 

All that being said, a well-timed fight can swing momentum (Talbot/Carcillo from a few years back...Iginla/Lecavalier etc.) and DIRECTLY affect the outcome of a game (or series).

1. Most of the really egregious stick infractions and dirty play get committed by these "enforcers" anyways and most of  them wouldn't be on the ice if fighting was abolished  because they have no actual hockey skill.



Where are you getting this from? 

  Dirty play and stick infractions committed by "enforcers?"  You sound foolish.  Tell that to Kris Letang who is serving a 2 game suspension for boarding, James Wisniewski who is serving an 8 game suspension for a head shot, or Alex Ovechkin/Chris Pronger who skate the fine line between dirty/clean.  All 3/4 are STAR players in the NHL and Wiz is a damn good player in his own right. 

Again...if you want to eliminate the GOON...sure, go for it.  No need for a guy tying up a roster spot who's only going to skate 3 shifts a night for 1:30 total ice time.  DJ King sucks...John Scott sucks...Kevin Westgarth sucks...etc.  Take them out of the game...I'm fine with it.  However, when you have actual skilled players like Mike Richards, Iginla, Jamie Benn, Chris Stewart, Phaneuf, even Crosby who can fight...then yea...what does that say about your argument? 

You argument is based off of non-skilled enforcers.  Not guys who can play and scrap.  There are kids who come to the NHL from leagues like the OHL, WHL, QJMHL, etc and in addition to being able to put the puck in the net, make plays, etc., they all have experience in getting in a fight or two.  These are not one-dimensional players who have little-to-nothing to add to a roster other than thier fists.  There's a reason why a tough customer like Gary Roberts can play in the NHL until he's 42 and a reason why a guy like Donald Brashear is currently playing in a beer league. 

There is NOTHING wrong w. a well-timed fight. 

In the history of the game and with as many guys who have come through the sport, how many SERIOUS injuries can you think of that have happened as a result of a fight (off hand, I can think of Kevin Stevens and Todd Fedoruk...i'm not going to count Boogaard/Belak because they were battling other demons)?  Of course there are outliers like Bob Probert who died as a result of brain injuries after his career, but things have changed since his last game in the NHL.  You get more injuries from blindside hits/headshots which the league has done it's best to try to curb. 

I think there is a HUGE overraction due to what Asham did to Beagle.  If dude never taunted after, no one would have said @%%#. 

 

[jewseejay]

this is an argument you cant win fellas, hes right... there shouldnt be fighting but god forbid they take it away...

they shouldnt even have boxing or mma as a sport at all then and football... injuries are a part of sports i dont care what you do, i really dont even think NHL players are more succeptible to brain injuries than football at all... contact/collision sports are inheritanly violent...

DEAL WITH IT

 

[True Blues]

I've never once met a hockey player-- professional or otherwise-- who argued that there shouldn't be fighting in the game.
That guys like Crosby have thrown hands indicates to me that even the most talented players in hockey understand the utility of fighting.

(As an aside, I'm all for growing the game, but I hope the NBA lockout doesn't mean we'll get PTI opinions in this thread every week.)

 

[doublejs07]

Originally Posted by JewSeeJay

this is an argument you cant win fellas, hes right... there shouldnt be fighting but god forbid they take it away...

they shouldnt even have boxing or mma as a sport at all then and football... injuries are a part of sports i dont care what you do, i really dont even think NHL players are more succeptible to brain injuries than football at all... contact/collision sports are inheritanly violent...

DEAL WITH IT

This. 

And I think that's the point that's totally missed (contact/collision sports)....

 

[osh kosh bosh]

1. You can't get rid of goons without getting rid of fighting.

2. The concept that fighting swings the moment of games is nonsense, it's post hoc fallacy because something happened directly before something you assumes it's what caused it because fact of the matter is that if the game is close and important teams don't fight.

3. Nobody can explain to me how the most popular and physical sport in north America can operate without fighting but hockey can't because that really renders the "police the game" argument null and void.

It's the job of league and the officials to police the game because the players have done a pretty $%%*$% job of it.

 

[doublejs07]

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

1. You can't get rid of goons without getting rid of fighting.

2. The concept that fighting swings the moment of games is nonsense, it's post hoc fallacy because something happened directly before something you assumes it's what caused it because fact of the matter is that if the game is close and important teams don't fight.

3. Nobody can explain to me how the most popular and physical sport in north America can operate without fighting but hockey can't because that really renders the "police the game" argument null and void.

It's the job of league and the officials to police the game because the players have done a pretty $%%*$% job of it.

*sigh*

1.  It's no coincidence that players like Donald Brashear are being PHASED out by younger, MORE SKILLED players like the Matt Hendircks' of the world.  Up until about 5 years ago or so, just about EVERY NHL roster had a "goon."  A guy who if you knew he was on the ice, was gonna scrap.  You don't find that as much, and that type of player is going to be gone from the game in the next 5-10 years, IMO.  Fighting won't be gone, but the goon will. 

2.  You show that you don't know what you're talking about.  And I'm totally serious.  If you even knew the game, you would know that the turning point in the Flyers/Pens series from 2009 was the Carcillo/Talbot fight.  Momentum TOTALLY swung in the Pens favor...and guess what, it was due to a fight.  Anyone who follows the sport knows this.  %%@*....you can even go back to when the Lightning met up w. the Flames in the SCF in 2004.  Two 50 goal scorers (and Captains) dropping the gloves in a spontaneous fight that set the tone for a hell of a series.  It goes on and on.  I hate the pre-meditated stuff (Laraque/Ivanains) w.goons, but the spur-of-the-moment bout...I'm all for it. 

3.  Apples and oranges.  You can't compare football to hockey.  Two ENTIRELY different things.  Can't belive you even went there. 

 

[frenchblue23]

It's not like fights break out as much as it used to.  They are definitely a momentum changer, players get riled up. 

Speaking of goons, Kevin Westgarth made a picture perfect pass to Kyle Clifford last night for a goal. 
When he's not fighting, he's contributing. 

 

[osh kosh bosh]

You can't just say it's different without actually explaining. (because it isn't actually different)

also doggy I know the game just fine man, im from Canada man its non optional way of life.

You can say it swung the series all you want I don't have to believe it and it doesn't make it evidence of anything. I don't talk hockey on NT because thats all anybody talk about when I lived in ottawa...

Hockey and Football are not so drastically different where one can have bare knuckle ice boxing and one can't. 

When you watch Olympic hockey/tournament there def not more dirty play...the concpet that it policies the game is so just complete horse @@#!.

 

[True Blues]

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

also doggy I know the game just fine man, im from Canada man its non optional way of life.

You can say it swung the series all you want I don't have to believe it and it doesn't make it evidence of anything. I don't talk hockey on NT because thats all anybody talk about when I lived in ottawa...

Fallacy of composition.
Moving on...

 

[DownByLaw]

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by DeadsetAce

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Yeah I'm a hockey fan and fighting should be taken out, it's stupid beyond words and I don't believe it actually attracts fans.

attracting fans isn't the reason fighting is needed or why it's a good to have in the NHL...

You are right, there isn't a single good reason, it's a relic of another time that shouldn't exist, it's good for nothing besides melting the brains of your work force and incurring lawsuits.

  

 

[scotthallwithapick]

*starts reading this thread and learning*

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Also the concept that I don't know hockey because I don't see the value in fighting is stupid like I;m voicing some crazy divergent view, a lot of the big guys in the Canadian hockey media are out on fighting too so don't give me that %+$%. Try backing up your opinion with facts rather than dismissing mine base on nothing.

 

[solemate96]

Bruins finally showed up and played. I think we should keep the lines that we had last night for next game.

As for fighting, I think it's the culture of hockey. It's just engrained in our heads that fighting is very common in the game of hockey. It's just a way of not getting punked out there on the ice and telling the guy that I'm not afraid of you even though I am the team's best player. It's also the camaraderie and the concept of the team. Why do you see so many guys get leveled off the puck from a check and next thing you know your teammate is right there sticking up for you.

For example, Phaneuf's hit on that Senators player. Once he got decked, Daniel Alfredsson came and defended him. DANIEL ALFREDSSON! His bones are like Tim Connolly's.

Another one is when The Bruins were playing The Thrashers last season. Lucic was driving down the left wing and he got hit in the head. Who was the first one to drop the gloves? Andrew Ference. Andy now has an "A" on his jersey because he knows the importance of his team and his teammates. It's just a way of saying, if you're going to start playing like a madman, I'm going to come and put you in check boy.

 

[philballa09]

in my opinion it's fine. fights and goons serve a purpose, protecting their star players and making game changing plays (ala carcillo against the pens a couple years ago

). if there was no fighting, meaning no more goons, don't you think teams will take runs at players like Crosby, Stamkos, etc.?? I'm sure they would love to take crosby out of the game even if it's getting a 2min minor.
nobody dared to touch gretzky because he had tough guys like Dave Brown and Dave Semenko protecting him.

plus NHL already has an instigator rule. It's a major and a game misconduct. no players are going to go around picking fights for no reason.

 

[lvjordan238]

Originally Posted by sosly

well Lombardi was supposed to help their scoring

poor guy
also highly considering going to the ducks game against the yotes on sunday, found some higher seats from $3-15. Drive yourself here LVJordan238 and get some cheap @%% tickets haha

IDK when I'm coming down for game. Thinking maybe the Sens game because they play the Avs the next day. Plus, they are like 2-8 in games that I attend. Don't want to screw up the winning streak.

 

[DeadsetAce]

nowadays a lot of "goons" can actually play. it's not like they're there to play two shifts, and fight on both those shifts. i know in boston we used to have guys like byers and miller. skillwise, nothing. but now in boston...our "goons" are shawn thornton, greg campbell (maybe?), and mcquaid...and they can all actually play. even lucic, who came up as a fighter and enforcer but now clearly contributes more than just that.

the pure goon role in the NHL is dying. now you have guys that can contribute AND fight if need be. of course, there's still exceptions. but the trend is definitely towards fighters with skill.

 

[useref15]

What a Rangers game last night. McDonagh looked horrible basically the whole game, until that OT winning goal. Rangers need to stay out of the damn penalty box, though. Gaborik is looking on point so far, just hopefully he stays healthy.


And, this fighting in hockey argument is nonsense. It needs to be there. I'm not a fan of two goons just fighting off a faceoff though. If something happens during the game that warrants it, then by all means I love it.

 

[doublejs07]

I'll just leave this here for OKB to read at his own leisure...

[h1]Hockey Fistfights Rarely Cause Injuries, Study Claims[/h1] [h2]Punches thrown on solid ground pack more power, researchers say[/h2]
FRIDAY, Oct. 21 (HealthDay News) -- Brawls on the ice are a staple of professional ice hockey games, but are they as vicious as they look? A new study suggests that few punches thrown during National Hockey League games end in significant injury.

The study claims that fighting on skates isn't particularly dangerous, possibly because it's hard to get traction for a powerful punch on the ice, said co-author Dr. David Milzman, an associate professor of emergency medicine at Georgetown University School of Medicine.

"They get a lot more injuries being checked into the boards, being hit from behind," he said.

Milzman went even further: "I've watched enough hockey that I can tell you clearly that if you take the release valve of fighting out of it, you'd have a lot more dirty playing, and probably more injuries would result from players not being able to blow off steam by fighting."

In the new study, researchers analyzed videos of more than 1,200 preseason and regular hockey games from the NHL 2010-11 season. They watched 710 fights, taking notes about what happened, and analyzed what happened to the players who fought. To determine if fighting on skates was more or less hazardous than fighting on solid ground, they also looked at injuries sustained by non-hockey players treated for fights at emergency or trauma centers.

The study findings were scheduled to be released this week at a meeting of the American College of Emergency Physicians in San Francisco. The research is considered preliminary because it hasn't gone through the peer review required before studies are published in medical journals.

The hockey fights only caused 17 reported injuries, five of them to the knuckles. The non-players treated for fighting had a much higher rate of knuckle injuries -- 81 percent, the researchers found.

The risk of concussion in a fight was much lower for brawling hockey players (0.39 percent) compared to the per-game risk for those who checked one another (nearly 4.5 percent).


Link

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Yeah the rebuttal is right there in the article

Also, she said, it's not clear whether players reported all hockey injuries resulting from the fights. "They might not let someone know if they had an injury, and it would keep them from playing," she said.
and unlike body checks hockey fights are a completely unnecessary part of the game. Even if I were to accept this(which I don't), You are making an argument of degrees, that hockey fighting are less dangerous relative to other parts of the game. This doesn't really change the original claim of my argument, Hockey fights are pointlessly dangerous. "How dangerous?" we can argue till kingdom come but still pointless. 

The preventing dirty play argument doesn't make sense considering other more physical sports and Olympic and college hockey lack of the so called increase in stick work.

There is no statistical correlation between winning games and winning fighs, no correlation between drawing penalties, and having an active enforcers

Great players don't get touched because they are great players, and great players who put there heads down a lot do get touched regardless of the enforcers they have on the team. Nobody is afraid of anybody.

 

[DeadsetAce]

^ fighting isn't the problem. size of modern equipment is the issue. has people feeling invincible.

 

[doublejs07]

Holy !*%@ @ douglas murray getting ko'd... Boulton absolutely tagged him. If someone posts the vid, put it in a spoiler so OKB doesnt get sad

murray is a BIG boy. Never would i have thought that he'd be tagged like he was tonight. I know my boy Pro was going nuts...

 

[DeadsetAce]

Originally Posted by DoubleJs07

 If someone posts the vid, put it in a spoiler so OKB doesnt get sad

murray is a BIG boy.

*puts NHL On The Fly on to catch this*

 

[doublejs07]

Here's the thing about Murray...honestly, I don't think I can remember him ever losing a fight. You can make a case for him being the strongest guy in the NHL also. For comparisons sake, Ovechkin at his heaviest was listed at 235. No joke...Murray looks like he's got a good 25-30 pounds (or more) on him. Like I said before, he's a BIG boy.

$%!% the spoiler

 

[jewseejay]

Ducks still suck... paging Ryan Getzlaf... ummm not sure if hes aware but even the first 10 games count...