***Official Political Discussion Thread***

“Lumpen bourgeoisie” :lol:

I described this segment of the capitalist class in the following terms in a piece earlier this year, in noting educational attainment as an imperfect proxy for class position: “Both these political pundits and the authors of Deaths of Despair define the working class as comprising those who lack a bachelor’s degree. Though this definition may be largely rooted in the limitations of survey data, we should recognize its limitations as a general proxy for people’s relations to economic production. This is particularly true with regard to the small towns and rural hinterlands where Trump drew strong support and where people without a college degree include many small businesspersons, landlords, building trade contractors, cattle ranchers, and other proto-entrepreneurs and wannabe millionaires.”

That said, don’t you think that the dynamic you’re describing is still suggestive of broad class solidarity among capitalists? Basically, that it is accepted reflexively that the interests of any segment of capital should prevail over the interests of workers, even when the broader implications ultimately hinder economic productivity, growth, market stability, etc. in the longer run?

I’d say that the lumpen bourgeoisie has created a great deal of potential disunity among the capitalist class but to your point, as long as the capitalist class can always offload the cost, created by the lumpen bourgeoisie, onto workers and/or the state, the entire bourgeoisie will get along regardless of whether they happen to wear Patagonia vests or cowboy hats.

For instance, if we had powerful sectoral unions that demanded and got real cost of living adjustments, we’d see workers getting big raises simply to offset the massive increases in rent that we’ve seen in the last year.

That’s not the case right now. It’d be very unlikely for even the most self-styled progressive firms to raise the pay of their lower level employees and/or contracted support staff to match urban rent increases. So the “solution” is to have those employees take on some combination of longer commutes, more roommates, lower quality housing, or homelessness.

The big city employers get what they want, landlords get what they want and workers lose.

If workers could either demand and get big raises to offset the cost of housing and/or credibly threaten to seize and distribute all empty housing stock as well as empty commercial spaces and convert them into low cost housing, now we’d have the employers and landlords having to figure out a resolution that doesn’t involve immiserating the working class.
 
The Democratic Party's third-way gang deserves criticism for how their politics have hurt workers and help accelerate the party losing the support of certain workers.

But

We need to stop making excuses for people that vote GOP for cultural reasons then by just placing blame on the Democratic party for not being pro-worker enough.

It is not that hard to tell that there is a massive difference in the party position regarding unions. It should not be hard to tell the GOP doesn't support them.
 
The purge continues

These so-called "principled" Republicans are cowards.

This retreated when Reagan moved the party right

They retreated from Chaney and Bush

They retreated from the Tea Party

They retreated from Trump

Dudes rather run away and start lecturing liberals about how they should moderate themselves to save the country
 
The Democratic Party's third-way gang deserves criticism for how their politics have hurt workers and help accelerate the party losing the support of certain workers.

But

We need to stop making excuses for people that vote GOP for cultural reasons then by just placing blame on the Democratic party for not being pro-worker enough.

It is not that hard to tell that there is a massive difference in the party position regarding unions. It should not be hard to tell the GOP doesn't support them.

I think a somewhat under the radar aspect of this (admittedly still very nascent) labor militancy resurgence is the politics within labor unions.

For decades, Union leadership has often times been little more than an extension of HR and as a result, Union leadership has deemphasized the role of labor unions as agents of solidarity within a broader left political project. Even worse, some unions leaders have emphasized how uniquely apart from the rest of the working class they are and how they, as skilled tradesmen, deserve a family sustaining wage while domestic workers, agricultural workers, retail workers, food service workers, and other non Union, so called “unskilled” jobs don’t deserve a living wage. We all know who disproportionally holds these “unskilled” jobs.

In addition to wanting to fight the class war with capital, these insurgent campaigns within labor unions have demanded that their union have an eye towards political education for its members and that their Union have solidarity with the entire working class, especially those workers who are marginalized in other ways and/or those not currently working within a Union.

I think that the more the mindset changes from the Union as a select club of worthy and deserving workers towards the Union as a vehicle of broad based class struggle, the faster that Union Membership’s voting habit will change.
 
For instance, if we had powerful sectoral unions that demanded and got real cost of living adjustments, we’d see workers getting big raises simply to offset the massive increases in rent that we’ve seen in the last year.
I'm on board with this given I live in the most expensive metro area in the country. Where I could see the problem is that even though there are local lodges for unions, the contracts are universal across the nation. I'm only using my region as an example here, but it would take the base pay to increase to $30/hr to offset the rent alone. But, if the pay were to increase to that amount then universally it would do the same for other metro areas which are significantly cheaper. I'd transfer and live elsewhere much more comfortably, I'd venture to guess I wouldn't be the only one to do so. I guess what I'm saying is union members would take the money and run leaving corporations with vacated positions. I can see why they wouldn't be to keen on making this happen.
 
I'm on board with this given I live in the most expensive metro area in the country. Where I could see the problem is that even though there are local lodges for unions, the contracts are universal across the nation. I'm only using my region as an example here, but it would take the base pay to increase to $30/hr to offset the rent alone. But, if the pay were to increase to that amount then universally it would do the same for other metro areas which are significantly cheaper. I'd transfer and live elsewhere much more comfortably, I'd venture to guess I wouldn't be the only one to do so. I guess what I'm saying is union members would take the money and run leaving corporations with vacated positions. I can see why they wouldn't be to keen on making this happen.
That is not a concern because if there was sectoral bargaining with the cost of living adjustment then living a high cost of living place to live in a low cost of living place would mean a reduction in compensation

Also, if people did that, then housing prices would go down in the high cost of living place and go up in the low cost of living place

Which in turn would affect migration in both places.

If people make enough to live comfortably in some place, they generally stay in that place.

The reasons corporation don't like unions is pretty simple. It strengthens the bargaining powers of workers in the labor market.
 
That is not a concern because if there was sectoral bargaining with the cost of living adjustment then living a high cost of living place to live in a low cost of living place would mean a reduction in compensation

Also, if people did that, then housing prices would go down in the high cost of living place and go up in the low cost of living place

Which in turn would affect migration in both places.

If people make enough to live comfortably in some place, they generally stay in that place.

The reasons corporation don't like unions is pretty simple. It strengthens the bargaining powers of workers in the labor market.
In a perfect world, this would be the case. The problem is, there's always concessions. If there was sectoral bargaining I can almost guarantee the next round of CBA talks would be my company saying "Y'all in the SF Bay Area will need to concede your profit sharing, or reduce your vacation, or sacrifice your 401k match, or increase your medical premiums, etc." In the end, we always get screwed one way or another.
 
Who you gonna call? AOC!

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In a perfect world, this would be the case. The problem is, there's always concessions. If there was sectoral bargaining I can almost guarantee the next round of CBA talks would be my company saying "Y'all in the SF Bay Area will need to concede your profit sharing, or reduce your vacation, or sacrifice your 401k match, or increase your medical premiums, etc." In the end, we always get screwed one way or another.
Famb it happens in this world

Wages in high cost of living places are already higher than the lost cost of living places

We see people flood certain cities and the cost of living, especially housing, raises. We simply don't build enough housing or expand services fast enough for that not to be the case.

Companies can say what they want to a really powerful sectorial union, but they won't have the power to extract concessions from them.

Ok, even if we concede somewhere there might be a concession, but sectoral union guarantees on aggregate workers in the sector come out ahead.

I mean I am always sympathetic when people lose a benefit, even in the name of the greater good, I don't think it is something to hand wave. But at the end of the day when I look at something as macro as bargaining power in a labor sector, instances like that aren't convincing enough to shake me from my general position.
 
Famb it happens in this world

Wages in high cost of living places are already higher than the lost cost of living places

We see people flood certain cities and the cost of living, especially housing, raises. We simply don't build enough housing or expand services fast enough for that not to be the case.

Companies can say what they want to a really powerful sectorial union, but they won't have the power to extract concessions from them.

Ok, even if we concede somewhere there might be a concession, but sectoral union guarantees on aggregate workers in the sector come out ahead.

I mean I am always sympathetic when people lose a benefit, even in the name of the greater good, I don't think it is something to hand wave. But at the end of the day when I look at something as macro as bargaining power in a labor sector, instances like that aren't convincing enough to shake me from my general position.
I'm not trying to change your mind, I actually agree with you because it's for the greater good. But whatever it is we concede, it won't be coming back without losing something else in return and we already don't have much.
 
Dudes rather run away and start lecturing liberals about how they should moderate themselves to save the country

I have a former colleague who hits the trifecta of Russian-born, engineer, and works in finance. Needless to say, he was a true believer in traditional conservatism and convinced that the American left was on the verge of embracing totalitarianism.

Dude was self-aware and intellectual enough to be repulsed by Trump, but spent most of 2019 complaining about Biden for, essentially, being a Democrat.

I may have finally lost it and said some regrettable things that I don’t regret.

how they, as skilled tradesmen, deserve a family sustaining wage while domestic workers, agricultural workers, retail workers, food service workers, and other non Union, so called “unskilled” jobs don’t deserve a living wage.

Watching people who make $20 an hour rant about how people making $8 an hour don’t deserve $15 dollars an hour is really, really frustrating when you know people making $1000 an hour are constantly asking people making $75 an hour to automate the $20 folks away.

Everyone needs to understand that if you aren’t generationally wealthy, your position in this society is precarious.


But, if the pay were to increase to that amount then universally it would do the same for other metro areas which are significantly cheaper.

That’s a big if. Why do t you think sectoral union leadership wouldn’t recognize cost of living when negotiating?

Also, if people did that, then housing prices would go down in the high cost of living place and go up in the low cost of living place

Which in turn would affect migration in both places.

Careful, someone might think you embrace free markets. :lol:

More seriously, structural barriers to the flow of labor often keep these kind of inefficiencies around for longer than is desirable. As I’m sure you know.

Conservatives finna be like...

So she is a "Ghostbuster"

I want to believe that she’s low key trolling the Incel brigade whose childhoods were “ruined” by the reboot.
 


Every campaign needs at least one lawyer, I know someone on here who can help out, pro bono, no less!




How do we know it wasn’t the case that everyone in the shot isn’t about about to sneeze, and that’s just the noise they all make.

The hand chopping? that could easily be everyone trying to swap a fly. The shot isn’t high resolution enough to see all the flies but they’re there.
 
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Every campaign needs at least one lawyer, I know someone on here who can help out, pro bono, no less!




How do we know it wasn’t the case that everyone in the shot isn’t about about to sneeze, and that’s just the noise they all make.

The hand chopping? that could easily be everyone trying to swap a fly. The shot isn’t high resolution enough to see all the flies but they’re there.




Lmao
 
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