***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[RustyShackleford]

T-Mac did a bad job at countering Youngkin's rhetoric


Maya Wiley said as much too

Because Youngkin uses the same strategy moderates in the Northeast use. First sound like centrist Democrats, or generic liberals from 15 years ago, appear reasonable. Sound understanding and that lower people's guard to accept the dog-whistle racism effectively

That is the Larry Hogan special

The issue with Dems is that that is not their only problem. Fox News flooded the zone with propaganda. The mainstream media played right into conservative hands like usual on schools

T-Mac had an education plan, but didn't effectively communicate it

Maybe if Biden is more popular, this doesn't matter

If Delta does tank the global economy, **** would have worked out for us

Maybe if T-Mac was a better candidate maybe we save this

If the Dems played their hand better, maybe we squeak out a win

Maybe if those idiots in Congress let Biden pass his agenda, T-Mac could have ran on stuff like universal pre-K to clap back better

But none of those things happened unfortunately

-The Party can self-correct in some places, someone other things are out of their hands.

But I think people generally greatly overestimate how much effect Dem messaging can break through the right-wing propaganda machine. I think too many people, Osh included, overestimate the overall impact different messaging would have to make their criticism of the party.

Like I think it is really wild that with the failures of a centrist candidate to run an effective campaign, we have to circle back to the supposed actions of out-of-control progressives.

I feel the valid criticism of the Democratic Party is pretty narrow, there are important lessons to learn, but folk is trying to force a narrative on it without much evidence to support it.

 

[RustyShackleford]

I also think T-Mac's major problem is that he fell into the traps most liberal centrists fall into

Make things clear, address people's problems, triangulate properly where you can

Instead and some consultants hired some pollsters, they picked a path, and refused to move from it when things tightened

This is like Hillary not going to the Midwest as polls were closing after Comey ****** her over.

T-Mac fought it was still August, and he paid for it.

****** centrist politics IMO hurt the Dems in VA more than anything progressives did

 

[gry60]

I don't see why democrats can't triangulate their message as well.
denounce the extremes and just be normal.

Joe Biden is painted by the right as a socialist.

Try and denounce that.

When you play by the rules of propagandists, you've already lost. If you accept the descriptions they assign to you, they already hold power over you. The third way democrats was a response to the accusations from the right that the left just wanted a society where nobody worked for stuff and criminals ruled. The left has only moved right from that messaging as Democrats tried to follow in their footsteps by associating the party with business leaders.

There is no normal when professors are painted as the enemy.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Like I think it is really wild that with the failures of a centrist candidate to run an effective campaign, we have to circle back to the supposed actions of out-of-control progressives.

to be clear, I am not doing this.

Progressives are going to be progressive. that's fine. i accept that.

This i agree is about centrists

if you're going to be a centrist, you should be a centrist and be clear about what makes you a centrist.
tts not enough to be an old white guy, you gotta say, those people over there i am not them. imo

 

[rexanglorum]

Seriously though, if these parents are worried about their kids’ education, they could talk to their kids’ teachers.

The opposition to CRT is all about racial hierarchy. A major reason for why I know this is the case, is that sort of people who are concerned about CRT are the sane people who make posts on Facebook about how schools should bring back corporal punishment. These people DGAF about the safety or comfort of their kids or kids more generally, in school at least.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Virginia needs a new bench

These old jars of mayo they have been rotating through never four years are past their expiration date

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Joe Biden is painted by the right as a socialist.

Try and denounce that.

When you play by the rules of propagandists, you've already lost. If you accept the descriptions they assign to you, they already hold power over you. The third way democrats was a response to the accusations from the right that the left just wanted a society where nobody worked for stuff and criminals ruled. The left has only moved right from that messaging as Democrats tried to follow in their footsteps by associating the party with business leaders.

There is no normal when professors are painted as the enemy.

I disagree strongly with this attitude.

Joe Biden it very clear he "beat the socialists to win the nomination"
should he not have done that, did that serve zero purpose?

Joe biden took great pains to specifically say he was not a socialist,
and as a result I don't think the propagandist were able to successfully brand him as a socialist.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

The opposition to CRT is all about racial hierarchy. A major reason for why I know this is the case, is that sort of people who are concerned about CRT are the sane people who make posts on Facebook about how schools should bring back corporal punishment. These people DGAF about the safety or comfort of their kids or kids more generally, in school at least.

whether this is true or not.

Can we at least agree

that it's NOT good idea to tell parents concerned about school curriculum.
that their concerns are fake and motivated by racial hierarchy?

 

[RustyShackleford]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-politics/glenn-youngkin-son-vote-election/2021/11/05/f5eb7ce0-3e62-11ec-8ee9-4f14a26749d1_story.html

Virginia Gov.-elect Youngkin’s underaged son tried to vote in Tuesday’s election, elections officials said

Virginia Gov.-elect Glenn Youngkin (R) speaks during his election night party in Chantilly, Va., on Nov. 2. (Jonathan Ernst/Reuters)
By Antonio Olivo
Today at 3:39 p.m. EDT


The 17-year-old son of Virginia Gov.-elect Glenn Youngkin (R) tried to cast a ballot in Tuesday’s gubernatorial election twice despite being too young to vote, Fairfax County officials said in a statement released Friday.

The statement, which identified the teen as Youngkin’s 17-year-old son, emphasized that he did not end up voting and stated that he did not violate any state election laws. The Washington Post is not including the teen’s first name because he is a juvenile and has not been charged with a crime.

The teen walked into the voting precinct inside the Great Falls Library on Tuesday afternoon, presenting his driver’s license to election officials when asked for a proof of identity, according to Jennifer Chanty, the precinct captain there.

Chanty said in an interview with The Post that she realized who the teen was when she looked at his ID. Upon seeing his age, she said she informed him that he must be at least 18 to be eligible to vote in Virginia.


She said she offered to register him to vote for the next election, but the teen declined and walked out.

About 20 minutes later, the teen returned, insisting that he be allowed to vote, saying that a friend who was also 17 had been allowed to cast a ballot, Chanty said.

“I told him, ‘I don’t know what occurred with your friend, but you are not registered to vote today. You’re welcome to register, but you will not be voting today,’ ” Chanty, a Democrat, recalled saying.

The universe hired some new writers, and they are dropping some quality content

 

[osh kosh bosh]

My hometown school district removed Lord of the Flies from the curriculum,
because a white student said it wasn't sufficiently anti racist or something..

When asked to comment they said
“We recognize as our consciousness around equity, oppression work and anti-racist work has grown,
we recognize some of the texts in some of the collections that we have are not appropriate at this point,”

personally I think this is a goofy idea but im not gunna vote Conservative because of it.

but im to the left of 90% of people.
I can totally imagine a center left person hearing this and thinking that school admins (that spent the last year closing schools or slow rolling re-opneings)

are acting crazy, and liberals would be fools to ignore that.

now this story is being signal boosted by Rebel news (Canadian brietbart)
to paint liberals as some kind of out of touch "woke mob" to coin a phrase.



I think it's possible for a person to be dissatisfied with some of the recent changes in school curriculum
and NOT be a stealth racist concerned about racial hierarchy.

 

[RustyShackleford]

My hometown school district removed Lord of the Flies from the curriculum,
because a white student said it wasn't sufficiently anti racist or something..

When asked to comment they said
“We recognize as our consciousness around equity, oppression work and anti-racist work has grown,
we recognize some of the texts in some of the collections that we have are not appropriate at this point,”

personally I think this is a goofy idea but im not gunna vote Conservative because of it.

but im to the left of 90% of people.
I can totally imagine a center left person hearing this and thinking that school admins (that spent the last year closing schools or slow rolling re-opneings)

are acting crazy, and liberals would be fools to ignore that.

now this story is being signal boosted by Rebel news (Canadian brietbart)
to paint liberals as some kind of out of touch "woke mob" to coin a phrase.



I think it's possible for a person to be dissatisfied with some of the recent changes in school curriculum
and NOT be a stealth racist concerned about racial hierarchy.

This just points to asymmetry in messaging

One of Youngkin's most famous ads was about a mother wanting to remove a book from the curriculum

Removing books from schools are mainly a conservative thing in the US over the years

I mean you are trying to point out how unreasonable some progressives have become, by calling out behavior conservatives have been doing and want to do more of

Sure it is possible be dissatisfied with the curriculum, but when America has a long history of certain books being removed for certain reasons, and the most popular ad out a mother trying to ban a book by a black author about the horrors of slavery, and everyone involved on the right is peddle some kind of racist rhetoric, then it is not wild for someone to think then this is mostly about race, and not give white people the benefit of the doubt

 

[biggie62]

I’m so happy that I went to private school. Anytime somebody would say something like this they’d just ask the parents to transfer the kid if they didn’t like what their son was learning.

granted I also didn’t attend a private school that was brainwashing people. If anything for a catholic education, Jesuits are progressive and they exposed me to things I wouldn’t be otherwise. Because I was pretty conservative when I was younger myself. Wish more people went through thatsort of education. It doesn’t prevent people from being wssholes when they graduate though. Scalia I as an alum of ours and kavanough also attended a DC Jesuit prep school.

 

[rexanglorum]

whether this is true or not.

Can we at least agree

that it's NOT good idea to tell parents concerned about school curriculum.
that their concerns are fake and motivated by racial hierarchy?

It depends on the candidate, it depends on the dynamics of a particular election. But as a general rule, I’d agree that it’s good political practice for a candidate to not dismiss or criticize ordinary voters, even when those voters do deserve to be criticized. (Although I’m not sure how applicable this is the McAuliffe campaign, it seems like he largely ignored the issue of CRT in schools)

While most voters are pretty well set on their opinions in the culture wars, there are some swing voters and Virginia seems like it has quite a few, so yeah maybe you explain that a.) it truly is the case that CRT isn’t taught in k-12 b.) more broadly, Virginia public schools talk about racism both in the past and also in present and it can be challenging for students but that’s a part of schooling. McAuliffe could have emphasized the utility of education and accuracy in education and how he wants a diploma from a Virginia high school to mean that its graduates can step out if their comfort zone and think critically and that that is crucial for being productive in the work force, succeeding at future educational endeavors, and in being a good citizen.

Perhaps addressing concerns head on and emphasizing how they or their kids benefit from a racial justice informed education, could have moved voters who were on the fence.

 

[dacomeup]

Thread is interesting and RustyShackleford has said similar things in here before

 

[osh kosh bosh]

This just points to asymmetry in messaging

One of Youngkin's most famous ads was about a mother wanting to remove a book from the curriculum

Removing books from schools are mainly a conservative thing in the US over the years

i agree but I think there's been a change in the culture where now the political left are more favorable towards censorship.

I mean you are trying to point out how unreasonable some progressives have become, by calling out behavior conservatives have been doing and want to do more of

im not, im not really making a value judgement on it.
Personally I think it's a little silly, but I don't really think it's that important.

all im saying is a person of good faith could think that it's unreasonable without being a motivated by racism.

Sure it is possible be dissatisfied with the curriculum, but when America has a long history of certain books being removed for certain reasons, and the most popular ad out a mother trying to ban a book by a black author about the horrors of slavery, and everyone involved on the right is peddle some kind of racist rhetoric, then it is not wild for someone to think then this is mostly about race, and not give white people the benefit of the doubt

so lets say a parent is concerned about recent changes in curriculum.
lets say they don't like Robin Diangelo being cited in some school board.

should they not voice these concerns because in the past have banned books for bad reasons?

in general im just worried that focussing on the racism let's centrist off the hook,
like if it is true this school stuff is impactful, then they gotta figure out how to beat it.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Thread is interesting and RustyShackleford has said similar things in here before

this is an absolutely hilarious cope.

Didn't Seattle just elect a republican city attorney, running against pro defund progressive?
Didn't the defund ballot initiative fail in Minnesota, and was underwater in wards with high black populations.
didn't new york city elect a former cop, and anti defund candidate.

am I drugs did I hallucinate all of this?

they have created a slogan that will be used forever more to radicalized white people against the most meager police reform elements.
if this is good for a movement, what is bad???

 

[osh kosh bosh]

It depends on the candidate, it depends on the dynamics of a particular election. But as a general rule, I’d agree that it’s good political practice for a candidate to not dismiss or criticize ordinary voters, even when those voters do deserve to be criticized. (Although I’m not sure how applicable this is the McAuliffe campaign, it seems like he largely ignored the issue of CRT in schools)

While most voters are pretty well set on their opinions in the culture wars, there are some swing voters and Virginia seems like it has quite a few, so yeah maybe you explain that a.) it truly is the case that CRT isn’t taught in k-12 b.) more broadly, Virginia public schools talk about racism both in the past and also in present and it can be challenging for students but that’s a part of schooling. McAuliffe could have emphasized the utility of education and accuracy in education and how he wants a diploma from a Virginia high school to mean that its graduates can step out if their comfort zone and think critically and that that is crucial for being productive in the work force, succeeding at future educational endeavors, and in being a good citizen.

Perhaps addressing concerns head on and emphasizing how they or their kids benefit from a racial justice informed education, could have moved voters who were on the fence.

and if the parent says

"Louden country $400,000 on an “equity consultant” that told them to use Robin Diangelo's White Fragility
or Books by Temma Okun that say "worship of the written word is white supremacist culture"

like even if it's technically true that this isn't CRT, that's not really a rebuttal
and your response doesn't really address their concerns.

 

[RustyShackleford]

i agree but I think there's been a change in the culture where now the political left are more favorable towards censorship.

Ok, but your post was about how actions get weaponized.

I feel if your want to call out goofy behavior and the effects they have in shaping narratives, then it still circles back to the propaganda machines working on the right, and which issues people think is more out of bounds

There is little no blowback for conservative goofiness, but the sky is falling if one progressive oversteps

im not, im not really making a value judgement on it.
Personally I think it's a little silly, but I don't really think it's that important.

all im saying is a person of good faith could think that it's unreasonable without being a motivated by racism.

No one is saying that is impossible, but there is a difference between what happens on average and what happens on the margin

For the last year, conservatives have been fear-mongering gon CRT. They passed laws banning it it schools

They used those laws not just to ban Robin Diangelo, but to get rid of pretty standard teaching on civil rights

So sure, not all people are racist, but white people don't get the benefit of the doubt for a reason.

And they will continue to use this moral panic, claim it is for one thing, then use the opening to get rid of other things.

so lets say a parent is concerned about recent changes in curriculum.
lets say they don't like Robin Diangelo being cited in some school board.

should they not voice these concerns because in the past have banned books for bad reasons?

Who is telling them they can't voice their concerns?

There is a difference between voicing your concerns and getting your way

This isn't about just getting heard. The woman in the ad was relentless in trying to get Beloved off the curriculum

There are public school board meetings. I have been to a couple in multiple counties in the state. Them ****s are wild, people's voices get heard.

This stuff isn't even new, we have seen this play out through history. I find it hard to believe that if white people get their way on this will stop at just Robin DiAngelo

I think again in an effort to call out behavior you views as being uncharitable to people, you are overly charitable

in general im just worried that focussing on the racism let's centrist off the hook,
like if it is true this school stuff is impactful, then they gotta figure out how to beat it.

But you don't think guessing about the shift in the politics of teachers lets centrists off the hook too?

I am not saying the Dems should dismiss these people or not try to win them back

But I always think it is naive to underestimate how much racial politics drive outcomes

I don't know why someone views this as just writing people off as unredeemable racist.

 

[rexanglorum]

and if the parent says

"Louden country $400,000 on an “equity consultant” that told them to use Robin Diangelo's White Fragility
or Books by Temma Okun that say "worship of the written word is white supremacist culture"

like even if it's technically true that this isn't CRT, that's not really a rebuttal
and your response doesn't really address their concerns.

I’d say something like:

“look, I probably wouldn't spend that much money to be told to seek out experts in workplace diversity and inclusion. While we want to prepare our kids for the work force, that’s not our primary focus.

For the same reason that we don’t teach creationism in our schools, we don’t shy away from race and its role in social studies and history.

If a teacher tells students to feel bad about being white or that they must apologize for being white, that’s inappropriate and I don’t support that. But it’s another thing, in my view, to teach the role that the idea of whiteness has and continues to play in our society.

And look, even if you disagree with the lessons, your kids are learning a particular way of looking at the world and they learn this alongside a variety of other ways to look at the world.

I really am glad when I see parents who are passionate about their kids’ education. Thank you, your role in your child’s education is critical. You might disagree with what role, if any, race plays in American life but it’s worthwhile for your kids to be exposed to that argument and you as a parent, certainly should talk about what they are learning and you absolutely should provide your views to your child so that they see your perspective as well.”

 

[osh kosh bosh]

I’d say something like:

“look, I probably wouldn't spend that much money to be told to seek out experts in workplace diversity and inclusion. While we want to prepare our kids for the work force, that’s not our primary focus.

For the same reason that we don’t teach creationism in our schools, we don’t shy away from race and its role in social studies and history.

If a teacher tells students to feel bad about being white or that they must apologize for being white, that’s inappropriate and I don’t support that. But it’s another thing, in my view, to teach the role that the idea of whiteness has and continues to play in our society.

And look, even if you disagree with the lessons, your kids are learning a particular way of looking at the world and they learn this alongside a variety of other ways to look at the world.

I really am glad when I see parents who are passionate about their kids’ education. Thank you, your role in your child’s education is critical. You might disagree with what role, if any, race plays in American life but it’s worthwhile for your kids to be exposed to that argument and you as a parent, certainly should talk about what they are learning and you absolutely should provide your views to your child so that they see your perspective as well.”

I think that is way way way better than T-Mac saying "parents shouldn't tell teachers what to teach.. "

 

[IATT]

 

[gry60]

I mean you are trying to point out how unreasonable some progressives have become, by calling out behavior conservatives have been doing and want to do more of

I feel if your want to call out goofy behavior and the effects they have in shaping narratives, then it still circles back to the propaganda machines working on the right, and which issues people think is more out of bounds

There is little no blowback for conservative goofiness, but the sky is falling if one progressive oversteps

I remember being on a road trip when Obama was president and seeing billboards way outside urban centers calling him the Devil. Then, I would turn my TV on and watch these people call him the same during televised town hall meetings.
Then, the hosts would be like "how can we communicate better with these concerned voters?"
NPR even did a version of that this morning. Youngkin peddled the CRT nonsense and the first people they ran to for an on-the-ground analysis was an anti-Trump republican voter who voted for Youngkin. Why is it not more interesting to interview a McAulliffe voter about why he feels the Democratic candidate failed to win a state that was blue in 2020?

Conservative ******** gets normalized by most media outlets every single day, from the framing of day-to-day issues to the way republican candidates get coverage, especially if they behave outrageously. And every time they shift the Overton window further right, Democrats are asked to adapt to match the new definition of what's "normal."

Meanwhile, Republicans and conservatives have executed their political objectives by pulling rules out of their asses and contradicting themselves shortly after, and nobody questioned their fitness to serve or their commitment to democracy. I have yet to see articles about Jim Jordan's legitimacy in Congress despite his involvement in the Jan 6th events, but Democrats should always be worried about a few overly educated, poorly paid, eccentric teachers.

Like I said before, that's ridiculous.

 

[gry60]

I think that is way way way better than T-Mac saying "parents shouldn't tell teachers what to teach.. "

Homeschooling is always an option.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Ok, but your post was about how actions get weaponized.

I feel if your want to call out goofy behavior and the effects they have in shaping narratives, then it still circles back to the propaganda machines working on the right, and which issues people think is more out of bounds
There is little no blowback for conservative goofiness, but the sky is falling if one progressive oversteps

propaganda machines are always going to be there, so i tend focus my attention on what people can do to blunt heir effectiveness.

No one is saying that is impossible, but there is a difference between what happens on average and what happens on the margin

For the last year, conservatives have been fear-mongering gon CRT. They passed laws banning it it schools

They used those laws not just to ban Robin Diangelo, but to get rid of pretty standard teaching on civil rights

So sure, not all people are racist, but white people don't get the benefit of the doubt for a reason.

And they will continue to use this moral panic, claim it is for one thing, then use the opening to get rid of other things.

I don't get the sense that swing voters concerned about schools don't want teaching on civil rights.
and Glen Younkin explicitly said "we need to teach the good and bad about our history"
If he republicans do that, it should be easy to triangulate and say well teach out entire history, and won't allow any goofy robin diangelo stuff.

Who is telling them they can't voice their concerns?

There is a difference between voicing your concerns and getting your way

This isn't about just getting heard. The woman in the ad was relentless in trying to get Beloved off the curriculum

There are public school board meetings. I have been to a couple in multiple counties in the state. Them ****s are wild, people's voices get heard.

This stuff isn't even new, we have seen this play out through history. I find it hard to believe that if white people get their way on this will stop at just Robin DiAngelo

I think again in an effort to call out behavior you views as being uncharitable to people, you are overly charitable

maybe I am, obviously far right people are motivated by racism.
but I think this Robin Diangelo style stuff has more reach than I even realized.
I think she's quoted on the Canadian federal governments website.

so I can totally see people getting pissed off at that stuff when you add in the school closures.

But you don't think guessing about the shift in the politics of teachers lets centrists off the hook too?

nah i think centrists need to be really aware of what's going on their left flank,
because you need to find stuff to come out against in order to define yourself as centrist.

otherwise what's the point of being a centrist?

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Homeschooling is always an option.

uhhh I mean yes, but you wouldn't advise a politician to tell this to their constituents right?