***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[gry60]

again just read what I say, it's easier that making it up.

I said his campaign was, and it absolutely was

his POLICIES were extreme
and voters responded to this by becoming more favorable to immigration not less.
and he de emphasized immigration in campaign rhetoric.

if you do something extreme and the voters turn away from you,
did the Overton window move towards you or away?



1. you aren't describing gravity or quantum physics equation.
you're describing your opinion on how you think propaganda works.

2. the evidence you site, is a vague hand wave towards "human history"

this evidence is fallacious and insufficient.

as I said you can look through human history and find right wing extremists in every culture.
the existence of right wing propaganda clearly does not lead to an inevitable march towards the public adopting those views.

it's a standard slippery slope argument, and there is no evidence in gesturing toward "human history"

Stop it dude. Just stop.

Where did I say that right wing parties don't exist everywhere? What does that statement even have to do with what I said when it comes to how they rise to power?

And on that topic, you're trying to tell me that the way the French National Front, the German AfD, the Polish ruling party, the Italian Lega whatever, UKIP, the GOP, and all these right-wing parties rose to power without demonizing those who they thought didn't belong? And that once in power (for those parties that did get to rule), they didn't close their borders with the EU, push refugees back in the Mediterranean sea, enact family separation, and orchestrated Brexit (to kick out foreigners)? Does that not look like a pattern to you?

And your example on immigration proving that the Overton window shifted left during Trump's years actually supports my point about limiting the impact of the swing voter's opinion on one's message and platform. It turns out that when it comes to immigration, public opinion shifts opposite to the policies coming out of the White House. Right now, we're seeing a rise in opposition to permissive immigration policies.

On the one hand, this trend fits within a familiar pattern in political science research arguing that public opinion often operates as a thermostat, whereby the public shifts against the current president’s positions to prevent policy-making from becoming too liberal or too conservative. On immigration, for instance, Americans’ opinions moved sharply to the left in response to Trump’s restrictive rhetoric and policies — this was the case especially among Democrats. Just as with a thermostat, though, public opinion is now reacting to the warmer environment on immigration under Biden by growing cooler toward it.

Republican Views On Immigration Are Shifting Even Further To The Right Under Biden

In early August, President Biden took aim at Republican governors like Ron DeSantis of Florida and Greg Abbott of Texas for not taking enough precautions to cou…

fivethirtyeight.com

That's also why when it comes to assessing where the political discourse is going, I pay more attention to political actors whose opinion is harder to change, such as elected officials, because what they say, the policies they support, and the actions they take are much more informative about the ideological stance of their party. And when it comes to that, Republicans have definitely shifted right from where they were two decades ago, and Democrats who insist on bipartisanship have to meet them there. As a result, the policies we will live under will reflect that shift.

 

[RustyShackleford]

it's definitely dumb,

I really though Joe Manchin was going to see the light, but It seems like he really believes in this filibuster nonsense.
it's deeply deeply unfortunate.

i don't think we really disagree that much,
im just much more inclined to fixate on the failings on my own ideological "side"

You know what, fair enough

That is a natural tendency of people, especially those on the left.

We have particular disagreements on things, but I will just leave it here. Sure we will have back and forth about those in the future

Furthermore, I want to sincerely apologize for my behavior over the past day. While I feel I was justified in my frustration the way I chose to engage with way too over the top and antagonistic.

Usually, I would just say f-it, but I do respect your takes even when I disagree.

So seriously, my bad for that famb.

Hope we good...

 

[osh kosh bosh]

You know what, fair enough

That is a natural tendency of people, especially those on the left.

We have particular disagreements on things, but I will just leave it here. Sure we will have back and forth about those in the future

Furthermore, I want to sincerely apologize for my behavior over the past day. While I feel I was justified in my frustration the way I chose to engage with way too over the top and antagonistic.

Usually, I would just say f-it, but I do respect your takes even when I disagree.

So seriously, my bad for that famb.

Hope we good...

no prob, im sure I escalated things as well.
I know im a highly disagreeable, difficult person to deal with.

I try not to be that but disagreement is in my soul i guess.

 

[wavycrocket]

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Where did I say that right wing parties don't exist everywhere? What does that statement even have to do with what I said when it comes to how they rise to power?

you asked me to look at history,

my point is the right wing propaganda exists in lot's of countries and societies throughout history.
just because they exists and are broadcasting propaganda doesn't necessarily mean that they are shifting the Overton window.

Donald trump spent 4 years doing anti immigrant propaganda and the public became more favorable to immigration.

And on that topic, you're trying to tell me that the way the French National Front, the German AfD, the Polish ruling party, the Italian Lega whatever, UKIP, the GOP, and all these right-wing parties rose to power without demonizing those who they thought didn't belong? And that once in power (for those parties that did get to rule), they didn't close their borders with the EU, push refugees back in the Mediterranean sea, enact family separation, and orchestrated Brexit (to kick out foreigners)? Does that not look like a pattern to you?

I didn't say they didn't demonize people, right wing parties are not new, the question is has the overton window shifted to the right.

The overton window concept as I understand it,
is forwarding extremist idea shifts the acceptable bounds of discourse in the that direction.

I think if there is an overton window, it's politicians responding to the public .
not right wing propaganda creating a right ward shift that didn't already exist.

i think it's totally nebulous and hard to measure, and even if you could know it I don't think you can say definitively that it has.


applying the Overton window concept to the entire globe stretches the concept beyond any useful utility,
like is there some global overton window that can be shifted by propaganda?

kinda strains credulity given the cultural difference between the countries.

And your example on immigration proving that the Overton window shifted left during Trump's years actually supports my point about limiting the impact of the swing voter's opinion on one's message and platform. It turns out that when it comes to immigration, public opinion shifts opposite to the policies coming out of the White House. Right now, we're seeing a rise in opposition to permissive immigration policies.

I think it shows the being seen as being on extreme left and extreme right is generally not good,
imo that's a strong argument FOR modulating your message to appeal to swing voters not against.

I think the public determines the acceptable bounds of discourse
and im pretty skeptical that you can shift the extreme edges with political speech.

but within those bounds politicians can position themselves to win swing voters
my understanding of the political science research is politicians who are seen as moderate do better generally,
they out perform the partisan lean of their districts by more.

Donald trump was seen as less conservative than past republican candidates by voters.

I don't see this Overton window shift to the right, and even if there has been,
being seen as moderate and not extreme is still an advantage.

So i don't understand why this would be an argument against modulating your message to appeal to swing voters

 

[Nike Jordan]

 

[Nike Jordan]

 

[RustyShackleford]

Inflation numbers come out tomorrow, and they will be high

Won't surprise me if Manchin says he won't support BBB right now because of it

There are rumblings he is lining up some buffoonery

 

[IATT]

Snowflakes

 

[blastercombo]

Snowflakes

It’s not even the kids crying. Is grown adults that aren’t even there/don’t know what’s being taught

 

[IATT]

while dwalk31 is concerned about “messaging“

 

[IATT]

Ain’t a certain someone here from Georgia

 

[Nike Jordan]

 

[IATT]

 

[Mark Antony]

What's the real deal on gas prices right now though? I'm used to the summer bump but it typically comes back down after that.

 

[blastercombo]

What's the real deal on gas prices right now though? I'm used to the summer bump but it typically comes back down after that.

Maybe it’s just old white billionaires wanting to make Biden look bad and fudging the numbers

 

[IATT]

 

[dwalk31]

 

[TooOlfForThisIsh]

 

[IATT]

 

[RustyShackleford]

Goddard school district orders 29 books removed from circulation

The list of books includes several well-known novels, including “The Handmaid’s Tale” by Margaret Atwood, “The Bluest Eye” by Toni Morrison, “The Hate U Give” by Angie Thomas and “The Perks of Being a Wallflower” by Stephen Chbosky.

www.kmuw.org

Conservatives already taking advantage of their CRT finesse working

 

[RustyShackleford]

What's the real deal on gas prices right now though? I'm used to the summer bump but it typically comes back down after that.

Natural gas prices are high, so energy companies are whiching to burning oil to produce electricity

OPEC refuses to increase production because after years of natural gas undercutting them, they want to drive the price of crude oil as higher to make more profit

US producers also don't want to increase production. They are making a decent profit from investors, so they don't care. They also do t want to decrease exports.

Suppliers are trying to make up for loses they experienced last year.

A lot of demand.

So this could last a while. Like a long while, and will probably get worse.

 

[IATT]

 

[IATT]

Goddard school district orders 29 books removed from circulation

The list of books includes several well-known novels, including “The Handmaid’s Tale” by Margaret Atwood, “The Bluest Eye” by Toni Morrison, “The Hate U Give” by Angie Thomas and “The Perks of Being a Wallflower” by Stephen Chbosky.

www.kmuw.org

Conservatives already taking advantage of their finesse working

someone explain getting “canceled” to me like I’m 3

 

[RustyShackleford]

Yeah, this dude gonna pull some ******** regarding BBB