- 33,612
- 28,921
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2006
You are in practice defending Manchin.
When given the opportunity to choose to move the goal post to what is logical given their goals.
Abandoning the part about what is politically prudent
the goal posts are in the same position.
describing the context of the two actions is not moving the goalposts.
Joe Manchin didn't just hurt progressives.
He hurt the centrist president
He hurt the centrist running in swing districts (they have been complaining about having nothing to run on for months)
He did this while claiming he is helping them. So using his own words and actions, he is hurting people he swears he wants to help
Given his words, that is not logical. I am not gonna use my low views of Manchin to rationalize away his ****ery.
yes and?
as I already said sometimes he's working against the democratic party.
making a show of his opposition to the democrats is like joe manchin 101.
you may not agree with him, but imo the logic is pretty clear.
he doesn't like BBB, he wants to kill it, and be known as a democrat who goes against his party. to me the reasoning isn't hard to follow.
whether this is a good thing or not is a different question.
if your view is he's a plutocrat well then my point still, stands there is a clear reason behind his actions.
if you take my view and he's positioning himself as opposed to the democrats and is looking to kill things in a public way, again clear reason, theres a goal that he's working to effectuate
Rashida Talibs adversarial speech to partisans doesn't make much sense to me
unless ive been misled about her commitment to material progressive gains.
I don't understand the point you are making,So you think he is worth it. Cool
You still didn't price in the cost of all the **** he will do. You were clearly wrong. So you can't argue you don't get upset because you priced everything in. You clearly didn't.
Stay you think it is still worth it now after things change. Fine. But you can't claim you priced it in from the jump. You did not
I am not telling you to match anyone's rhetoric on Manchin. I don't care about your bedside manner. When you were an ******* and had no issue with being one back. I really don't care.
I didn't say I predicted all his future actions.
new information has arrived, and as I said, it's a closer call then before, imo it's still worth it.
im not hand waving anything, I said it's bad..and it's still worth it.But you undercut the foundations you use to justify your issues with progressives when you make excuses, defend, and generally handwave the harm Manchin causes.
Like your rationale for having issues with progressive looks like unprincipled BS, because you willingly abandon them for Manchin.
The general inconsistency that undermines your claims is still there.
So you conveniently don't want to talk about the thing that makes you look hypocritical. Makes sense
i don't know what you are referring to.
And I also agree what Manchin is doing is highly destructive and counterproductive. And analysis of it should go beyond "this is bad"
there's plenty of joe manchin is bad analysis out there.
you don't need from me, especially since I still think its worth.
my criticism is always going to be muted, when I think the price is still worth it.
The thing is that like Machin, you will not engage in an economic discussion on the merits of BBB in a high inflation environment. It has to be political discussion
you've been harping on the political implications of not passing BBB pretty hard. that why i responded that way.
But on the politics, somehow the views of the centrist in swing districts, complaining they have nothing to run on is whatever as well. The fact Manchin killed any chance of it passing before inflation became a big story is whatever.
Even if it is not a political winner this year. It could be in future years. Just like the ACA. The same ACA Manchin criticized when coming into office, then ran on protecting a few years later.
Sure minds can differ. And they will differ because we can't have a substantive economic conversation about BBB actual effects in a high inflation environment.
And that exactly how Manchin likes it
I think BBB is much less durable and more politically fragile, imo that has to be a factor into its potential value.
You moved the goal post to explain why to avoid addressing Manchin as a Democrat that needlessly field bad news cycles against his party.
Something you willing to criticize a progressive for .
its not a magic incantation, repeating it doesn't make it true,
The goal posts are in the exact same position.
if you think this rashida talib is wise then again fine.
I think it's "unwise" and I don't think it's that much more of a blistering criticism than "joe manchin is bad. "