***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[osh kosh bosh]

So many one state solutions I see boil down to;

"What if both sides of the conflict wanted something totally different then what they actually want?"

as far as I can tell there is no constituency on either side for single secular/non ethnic state.

 

[RustyShackleford]

from the quran - 62. Those who believe, and those who are Jew- ish, and the Christians, and the Sabeans—any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and act righteously—will have their reward with their Lord; they have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

we are brothers and sisters but the politicians have muddied the minds of people, so it should work but most likely it wont cuz humans suck

With all due respect, this is a very unconvincing post.

 

[ballinsam23]

Yeah I think it's impossible.

Most Israeli's want Israel to be a Jewish state, for it to be that they need to maintain Jewish demographic majority.

so there is always going to be a limit to how many Palestinians they will grant citizenship to.
so yah they can live in peace as long as they remain an ethnic minority.

So Imo it the only path to peace is a two/three state solution.

the fact that Arabs live there means nothing as far as evidence for a one state solution.

We'll call it Israel, Arabs can call it Palestine. Christians seem that they dont even care. All these semantics and politics ruin actual peace in that region.

Would Gazans/West Bank Arabs agree to a two state solution where an independent party governs them? Who even wants that responsibility?

Israeli Arab citizens, the few million of them seem to want an Israeli govt.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Like there was a time when a Jewish PM was spending political capital to work toward peace and a state for the Palestinian people.

A Jewish citizens killed him for it.

If so many citizens wanted peace, if they was such a consensus, then people like Bibi and Hamas won't have supporters.

Of course having better people in power would help the situation, but there are many more roadblocks in the way.

I don't think acting like this conflict is mostly imaginary is helpful

 

[RustyShackleford]

We'll call it Israel, Arabs can call it Palestine. Christians seem that they dont even care. All these semantics and politics ruin actual peace in that region.

Would Gazans/West Bank Arabs agree to a two state solution where an independent party governs them? Who even wants that responsibility?

Israeli Arab citizens, the few million of them seem to want an Israeli govt.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the head of the Arab Political Paty in Israel also call for a two state solution?

Also, I feel there is something deeply flawed with you keep using Israeli Arabs to back up your argument.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

We'll call it Israel, Arabs can call it Palestine. Christians seem that they dont even care. All these semantics and politics ruin actual peace in that region.

it's not about religion its about demographics and maintaining ethnic majorities.

if you grant all of them citizenship, and all their family members comeback and also want citizenship. (which is nearly 7 million people by some estimate)

Suddenly Jews are minorities within the state, which for most Israeli's would defeat the whole purpose.


you can't really handwave the demographic problem.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

This is why I don't like religious explanations of this conflict.
it plays a part (mostly in generating interest from outsiders)

but ultimately imo its about politics.

- Israeli's wants to retain an ethnic majority.
- Palestinians want all the refugees to comeback.

I don't understand how you make a one state solution when these are two driving motivations.

they seem fundamentally incompatible.

 

[MakeNTGreatAgain]

With all due respect, this is a very unconvincing post.

no disrespect taken,
im just saying when people in politics do bring religion into it, muslims and jews aren't enemies

 

[MakeNTGreatAgain]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the head of the Arab Political Paty in Israel also call for a two state solution?

Also, I feel there is something deeply flawed with you keep using Israeli Arabs to back up your argument.

it does sound a lil odd

This is why I don't like religious explanations of this conflict.
it plays a part (mostly in generating interest from outsiders)

but ultimately imo its about politics.

- Israeli's wants to retain an ethnic majority.
- Palestinians want all the refugees to comeback.

I don't understand how you make a one state solution when these are two driving motivations.

they seem fundamentally incompatible.

great point

 

[ballinsam23]

Also, I feel there is something deeply flawed with you keep using Israeli Arabs to back up your argument.

I dont think its a flawed argument when the sample size is a million plus. Look at their polls, look at their interviews of Arab Israelis.

You have to actually live in an Israeli city or atleast visit to understand that its 100% possible.

This is why I don't like religious explanations of this conflict.

It is backed by religion though. Look at the recent polls. 70% support an Islamic jihad.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

I dont think its a flawed argument when the sample size is a million plus. Look at their polls, look at their interviews of Arab Israelis.

You have to actually live in an Israeli city or atleast visit to understand that its 100% possible.



It is backed by religion though. Look at the recent polls. 70% support an Islamic jihad.

70% of who, Palestinians?

 

[ballinsam23]

70% of who, Palestinians?

Gazans. Page 14 on

https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf

 

[dacomeup]

Gazans. Page 14 on

https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf

Can you point to exactly which response and question you’re talking about?

 

[onthenephs]

1. The Arab natives to the land have nothing to do with religion.

2. The state of Israel is the only state and government in the world based on religion, any other government that tries to do this is labelled a “terrorist”

3. There never was animosity between Muslims and Jews.

4. Introducing Europeans, that were witnesses to all of Europe’s wars and state ship and nationalism into a region that was tribal Arab native was a terrible idea.

5. As a two state solution, Israel is the one bent on religious idealogues. This has nothing to do with Islam.

6. Hamas as an entity represents resistance to Israel’s fanatic religious idealogues.

7. The media has somehow convinced everyone that the opposite of this is true, Israel is a democratic state and the Muslims are fanatically trying to rid the region of Jews. Never has that been the case.

8. Israel does not want two state solution.

9. Israel Zionists have assassinated numberous influential Jews that opposed the creation of the Jewish homeland.

10. If Hamas did not exist as some form of resistance Israel would have completed their fantasy long time ago.

 

[RustyShackleford]

I dont think its a flawed argument when the sample size is a million plus. Look at their polls, look at their interviews of Arab Israelis.

You have to actually live in an Israeli city or atleast visit to understand that its 100% possible.

It doesn't matter if the sample size is a million plus if it is not representative. The only thing you have pointing to it being is their ethnicity. But I would think that is insufficient because Israeli Arabs have not had the same life experiences Palestinian Arabs have. Which would fundamentally affect their views. Like, are Israeli Arabs currently having their neighbors bombed to rubble and their family members killed? Because I feel Palestinians in Gaza having to go through that would shape their view of living under a Jewish Israeli government.

I don't think the Israeli government has made many fans in the West Bank either.

The issue is whether or not Arabs can live peacefully in Israeli. But whether the Palestinian people can live can have faith in the Israeli government and institution given what they have been put through. Which would be necessary to have a functional democracy going forward.

-------------

Secondly, you are implying another argument. That Arab/Muslim/Palestinians are the only people we need to worry about when it comes to maintaining peace. Like there won't be a ton of hard right Jewish Israelis that would have a major issue with the demographics of Israel fundamentally changing. Not only that, but putting political control of the entire country within reach for Palestinians.

And given how the Israeli government treats groups African Jews, we really trusting the to do right by the Palestinian people?

Seems like your argument involves a lot of handwaving

 

[RustyShackleford]

1. The Arab natives to the land have nothing to do with religion.

2. The state of Israel is the only state and government in the world based on religion, any other government that tries to do this is labelled a “terrorist”

3. There never was animosity between Muslims and Jews.

4. Introducing Europeans, that were witnesses to all of Europe’s wars and state ship and nationalism into a region that was tribal Arab native was a terrible idea.

5. As a two state solution, Israel is the one bent on religious idealogues. This has nothing to do with Islam.

6. Hamas as an entity represents resistance to Israel’s fanatic religious idealogues.

7. The media has somehow convinced everyone that the opposite of this is true, Israel is a democratic state and the Muslims are fanatically trying to rid the region of Jews. Never has that been the case.

8. Israel does not want two state solution.

9. Israel Zionists have assassinated numberous influential Jews that opposed the creation of the Jewish homeland.

10. If Hamas did not exist as some form of resistance Israel would have completed their fantasy long time ago.

Good ****ing grief

 

[gry60]

no disrespect taken,
im just saying when people in politics do bring religion into it, muslims and jews aren't enemies

I think it's the opposite actually.

The essence of this dispute is territorial; however, the religious dimension of this issue is exacerbated because of the land being fought over and the fact that 50% of the world population identified with this piece of land by virtue of their religious beliefs. In contrast, the religious aspect of conflicts like the Bosnian war remained local because nobody outside of the region cared about the mosques and churches that were being destroyed/sacrileged.

 

[onthenephs]

Good ****ing grief

Good post bro

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Gazans. Page 14 on

https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf

its not all surprising to me that people under occupation support extremist rebel groups.


but what is the critical factor here. is it islamism?
well not really because there are Islamist political parties in the knesent

is it the fact they are Arab?
Well no 20% of Israel is Arab.

The critical factor that makes Gaza and the westbank different is the occupation and blokade.

Why the occupations, why not just annex it like Egypt dud or Jordan did in the past.
Because they need maintain ethnic majorities for Israel to remain a Jewish state.

at bottom it's about politics more than it is religion.
thats what makes the one state solution unworkable, not religion.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Good post bro

You're welcome

 

[gry60]

Like there won't be a ton of hard right Jewish Israelis that would have a major issue with the demographics of Israel fundamentally changing.

This.

When you actually listen to Israeli policymakers, a threat to the numerical superiority of Jewish people in Israel is a non-starter. Furthermore, it's not even a far-right position, and it's the main reason insistence on the right to return of the descendants of Palestinian refugees from 1946 (?) has been a negotiation ender.

 

[ballinsam23]

Can you point to exactly which response and question you’re talking about?

 

[DLF]

 

[MakeNTGreatAgain]

It doesn't matter if the sample size is a million plus if it is not representative. The only thing you have pointing to it being is their ethnicity. But I would think that is insufficient because Israeli Arabs have not had the same life experiences Palestinian Arabs have. Which would fundamentally affect their views. Like, are Israeli Arabs currently having their neighbors bombed to rubble and their family members killed? Because I feel Palestinians in Gaza having to go through that would shape their view of living under a Jewish Israeli government.

I don't think the Israeli government has made many fans in the West Bank either.

The issue is whether or not Arabs can live peacefully in Israeli. But whether the Palestinian people can live can have faith in the Israeli government and institution given what they have been put through. Which would be necessary to have a functional democracy going forward.

-------------

Secondly, you are implying another argument. That Arab/Muslim/Palestinians are the only people we need to worry about when it comes to maintaining peace. Like there won't be a ton of hard right Jewish Israelis that would have a major issue with the demographics of Israel fundamentally changing. Not only that, but putting political control of the entire country within reach for Palestinians.

And given how the Israeli government treats groups African Jews, we really trusting the to do right by the Palestinian people?

Seems like your argument involves a lot of handwaving

QUOTED FOR TRUTHHH

 

[ballinsam23]

It doesn't matter if the sample size is a million plus if it is not representative. The only thing you have pointing to it being is their ethnicity. But I would think that is insufficient because Israeli Arabs have not had the same life experiences Palestinian Arabs have. Which would fundamentally affect their views. Like, are Israeli Arabs currently having their neighbors bombed to rubble and their family members killed? Because I feel Palestinians in Gaza having to go through that would shape their view of living under a Jewish Israeli government.

I don't think the Israeli government has made many fans in the West Bank either.

The issue is whether or not Arabs can live peacefully in Israeli. But whether the Palestinian people can live can have faith in the Israeli government and institution given what they have been put through. Which would be necessary to have a functional democracy going forward.

Israel is one of the most liberal countries out there. The polls were pretty split before. Arabs are able to vote and have representation. Yes more would be needed in the future. Obviously the war may have swayed some voters, especially those directly affected on both sides.

Hamas rockets are blindly aiming at Arab Israelis too. The same Arabs from Egypt/Lebanon/Jordan/etc.

I'm not sure how Israeli Arabs can convince Gazans and West Bank Palestinians a one state solution is possible. I'm not sure why Egypt or other Arab countries refuse to take refugees until the war is over.

I do know that a "resistance" movement or military action has not solved anything for a hundred years.