***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[biggie62]

Bernie has been discussing some of the details of the Senate bill...
Bernie ducked out of the Senate and went through the package as currently being negotiated.
- 2 Trillion dollars +, with more from the Fed.
- 250 Billion to expand unemployment insurance.
- (100% of prior income for 4 months)
- (covers gig workers and basically all american workers)
- 250 Billion dollars (one time cheque of 1200 per adult, and 500 per child. Means tested at 75000/year)
- 350 Billion dollars to forgivable loans to small businesses who do not lay off workers.

- 500 Billion dollars to big businesses
- Free testing, but not free treatment of COVID-19

Not finalized, still missing info on lots of issues

Damn no UNC offwhites. Going to have to be the 3s. Sorry bro

 

[storm2006]

I guess we can discuss what we were trying to discuss earlier. Can you see how people have been laid off might want things re-opened sooner than later? As opposed to receiving a generous stimulus package while being laid off/not receiving wages to flatten the curve related to COVID-19.

I tend to think many would prefer the former.

If you prefer a different issue I don't mind that either.

To be honest with you, while I absolutely don't support it, I do agree that there is a contingent of folks out there that would want things re- opened sooner rather that later so they can return to work and have security/stability in their lives in the short-term. However, don't think it's appropriate for that to even be a consideration for the government. It is a very selfish wish and those folks are only their own personal financial situation and are showing no regard for the rest of the population as well as themselves and their loved ones.

The question I would pose is, do you agree or support that view?

 

[Mark Antony]

Honestly unemployment sucks, i've been there, but given full salary while I protect myself and my family from a pandemic so the country can recover correctly makes more sense than simply just going back to work now and treading water in both my finances and my health while living in fear.

 

[nawghtyhare]

Meth is an intolerant open-closed minded liberal who feels the need to condescend and or shut down any view that he thinks could potentially threaten/oppose his, and as far as I know he runs this site. He's even called me homophobic for mocking a homophobe on this site for implying that they would throw their gay son away.

u forgot to @ him
Methodical Management

 

[marikomorose]

Honestly unemployment sucks, i've been there, but given full salary while I protect myself and my family from a pandemic so the country can recover correctly makes more sense than simply just going back to work now and treading water in both my finances and my health while living in fear.

Some people barely gripping on to the edge may have a different pov. Poor folk are effected by this the most & worst.

 

[Mark Antony]

Some people barely gripping on to the edge may have a different pov. Poor folk are effected by this the most & worst.

Why yes, that's why per the proposal above they would get full pay plus a stimulus while not spending on resources to get to work.

 

[dwalk31]

To be honest with you, while I absolutely don't support it, I do agree that there is a contingent of folks out there that would want things re- opened sooner rather that later so they can return to work and have security/stability in their lives in the short-term. However, don't think it's appropriate for that to even be a consideration for the government. It is a very selfish wish and those folks are only their own personal financial situation and are showing no regard for the rest of the population as well as themselves and their loved ones.

The question I would pose is, do you agree or support that view?

I would not. But as I said earlier, I am fortunate not to be in a position to have to make that choice. I think ignoring that as a real perspective is a bit tone-deaf.

Trump is showing a willingness to address that contingent. Even if unintentionally.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Damn no UNC offwhites. Going to have to be the 3s. Sorry bro

I make way too much to get anything. The dream is dead...

 

[starfox070]

smh that doesn’t mean I want the flu or this.

he you will be ok just get a highly contagious flu.

logic is lost here smh.....

 

[whywesteppin]

To be honest with you, while I absolutely don't support it, I do agree that there is a contingent of folks out there that would want things re- opened sooner rather that later so they can return to work and have security/stability in their lives in the short-term. However, don't think it's appropriate for that to even be a consideration for the government. It is a very selfish wish and those folks are only their own personal financial situation and are showing no regard for the rest of the population as well as themselves and their loved ones.

The question I would pose is, do you agree or support that view?

Look, we can't expect individuals to do the right thing or to take personal responsibility. That's a failure of an approach to public policy and public health. You have to put incentives in place and you have to work to reshape people's habits. That's why social distancing hasn't worked that well but, after people have all felt the impact of COVID-19, next time around they'll be more likely to act in the proper manner.

Now to the bigger question ( dwalk31 , since he asked it originally) -- it sucks to get laid off. It sucks to sit at home without work. It also sucks to run out of masks in a hospital. It sucks when you run out of beds and ventilators. It sucks when you're taking public transport or going to the office and have to worry that the person next to you who is coughing is going to get you sick with something worse than the flu and, worse yet, now you're worried about visiting your own family because you don't want to get them sick.

Anyway, none of that matters. This isn't a scenario where we can use conventional wisdom and intuition and past solutions to fix things. This is a new threat, and it doesn't adhere to the norms of how we typically solve problems. We can't count on the system to fix itself. This is where leadership comes in. We have people who have spent lifetimes studying these types of threats and coming up with solutions on the medical level, on the public health level, and on the economic level.

It's absurd and dangerous that one of those leaders is basically deciding to act like a rogue individual and do as he pleases. So while it sucks to get laid off, to get through this we have to keep things in perspective and we have to focus on the real problem. We can and should alleviate the burden on individuals who have lost their income.

All that said, I can see the rationale behind trying to get the economy going again and taking the losses as they come. But I've already argued in here, multiple times, why that's a bad approach. It may work 90% of the time, but in the 10% chance it fails, it fails in awful ways. And the numbers are more like 50/50 than than 90/10 at this point.

Also, we CAN responsibly start to get things going again, but it will take a lot of planning and effort. We can allow small locally closed off regions (i.e. ban travel) to resume normal life, hand-in-hand with a ridiculously high level of surveillance (free testing, random testing) for the next few months.

 

[storm2006]

Why yes, that's why per the proposal above they would get full pay plus a stimulus while not spending on resources to get to work.

Who would give you full pay? The government or your employer?

 

[marikomorose]

u forgot to @ him
Methodical Management

That gentleman asked me for an example and I gave the 1st one I can think of. Now I will not be going back and forth Cobra Kai today. I will not be tricked into moonwalking.

Why yes, that's why per the proposal above they would get full pay plus a stimulus while not spending on resources to get to work.

Unfortunately those ppl are more than likely paying attention to said proposal. They're Just worrying about their next meal & Trump still not taking da rona serious despite clear the seriousness of the situation.

 

[Mark Antony]

Who would give you full pay? The government or your employer?

Probably however they deal with current unemployment. Both? never quite understood it.

Bernie has been discussing some of the details of the Senate bill...
Bernie ducked out of the Senate and went through the package as currently being negotiated.
- 2 Trillion dollars +, with more from the Fed.
- 250 Billion to expand unemployment insurance.
- (100% of prior income for 4 months)
- (covers gig workers and basically all american workers)
- 250 Billion dollars (one time cheque of 1200 per adult, and 500 per child. Means tested at 75000/year)
- 350 Billion dollars to forgivable loans to small businesses who do not lay off workers.

- 500 Billion dollars to big businesses
- Free testing, but not free treatment of COVID-19

Not finalized, still missing info on lots of issues

 

[IATT]

 

[storm2006]

I would not. But as I said earlier, I am fortunate not to be in a position to have to make that choice. I think ignoring that as a real perspective is a bit tone-deaf.

Trump is showing a willingness to address that contingent. Even if unintentionally.

I'm not sure if this is what you're saying but I think the middle ground would be to acknowledge that contingent, tell them you're aware of their angst and working towards a bill to get them money. I would let the world know that we're all being pinched in the short-term but if things are opened up immediately we'll be slammed in the long-term.

All that said, I can see the rationale behind trying to get the economy going again and taking the losses as they come. But I've already argued in here, multiple times, why that's a bad approach. It may work 90% of the time, but in the 10% chance it fails, it fails in awful ways. And the numbers are more like 50/50 than than 90/10 at this point.

Exactly. It's a jump ball and you can't take that sort of risk with the amount of lives at risk. Sure, it will help people continue to scrape by but really Trump and the Republicans are doing it for their rich friends in Corporate America. They don't give a **** about the people who WANT things to be re-opened because they NEED them to be opened as a matter of LIFE AND DEATH.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Who would give you full pay? The government or your employer?

The Dems want those that are unemployed to get it through unemployment insurance

Then they will give companies loans to make full payroll, and if they keep the staff on during the downturn they will forgive the loan.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Reaction of old people everywhere...

 

[Mark Antony]

Here I am thinking we're a modern society and we're really looking back to old viking/roman type Senicide. Wild.

 

[nawghtyhare]

I make way too much to get anything. The dream is dead...

same

 

[Mark Antony]

Unfortunately those ppl are more than likely paying attention to said proposal. They're Just worrying about their next meal & Trump still not taking da rona serious despite clear the seriousness of the situation.

I agree time is not on your side when you're poor. They need to get this done.

 

[IATT]

 

[boris]

Meth is an intolerant open-closed minded liberal who feels the need to condescend and or shut down any view that he thinks could potentially threaten/oppose his, and as far as I know he runs this site. He's even called me homophobic for mocking a homophobe on this site for implying that they would throw their gay son away.

I mean examples of intolerance of conservatives views. But if you can link me to the above I’ll take a look.

 

[marikomorose]

Political views in general are contradictory and a bit irrational, but conservative arguments tend gauge worse than liberals, especially the arguments I've seen on here w/ Ninja being their clan leader. Just a bunch general nonsensical bigoted points being made, and in regards to minorities, more specifically minorities under the upper class they're just fighting the good fight that doesn't intend for them to be victors.

B boris

 

[boris]

I love how Dwalk wants to speak about liberal intolerance in here as a collective

But when we bring up the prior bad acts of numerous conservatives, to point out why there are not more posters in this thread, he can only "speak for himself"

Yeah, I notice he just keeps trying to throw a correlation at me and hope something sticks.

What there is a lack of tolerance for in this thread is arguments made in bad faith, and conservatives excel at it.

We've had exchanges here where @ninjahood argued about the very definition of scientific terms used in the proper scientific context (efficiency); we've had discussions where they simply made up facts to "win" arguments.

When there cannot even be an agreement on mere, observable facts, how can we expect to have a proper discussion? The thread is almost 8 years old, how can we expect folks to tolerate nonsense for that long? Conservatism has devolved into Trumpism, where criticizing a president for giving unsubstantiated medical advice to people is frowned upon.

I will never forget when ninja refused to accept the difference between energy efficiency and energy density because it woulda shown his argument to be wrong. Dude has such a fragile ego he can never be wrong about anything.

 

[IATT]

dwalk31 I’m watching OJ: made in America.. the 2nd part and check the picture they showed