Official Stock Market & Economy Thread

A good article on leveraged ETF's for my fellow NTer's as I await my marathon flight to Singapore.

[h1]How Managing Risk With ETFs Can Backfire[/h1]
  • [h3]By JASON ZWEIG[/h3]
renocol_JasonZweig.gif



Alcohol ads urge us to "drink responsibly." Cigarette packs are emblazoned with the surgeon general's warnings about cancer. And the firms that sell leveraged exchange-traded funds keep begging individual investors not to buy the things because they are meant only for short-term trading and can have erratic long-term returns.

Nonetheless, roughly 13,000 people are killed in alcohol-related crashes each year, over 33 million Americans smoke at least once a day -- and more than $2 billion has poured into leveraged ETFs so far this year, much of it from financial advisers and retail investors who hang on too long.

ETFs are funds that trade during the day like stocks. A leveraged ETF seeks to use futures and other derivatives to multiply the daily return of a market index. Some, called "ultra," "2X" or "3X bull," attempt to double or triple the market's return each day. Others try to double or triple the opposite of an index's return; on a day when the market goes down, these "ultra-short," "inverse 2X" or "3X bear" funds should go up two or three times as much.

On Thursday, the Standard & Poor's 500-stock index dropped 1.6%. ProShares UltraShort S&P500, which tries to deliver twice the inverse of the index's daily return, went up 3.2% -- right on target.

MI-AV326_INVEST_D_20090227210414.jpg
Heath Hinegardner

So why bother with a boring index fund when you could double or triple your money by using a leveraged ETF? And why helplessly watch your stocks wither away when an inverse leveraged fund could let you mint money in a falling market?

There are 106 such funds with $46 billion in assets, much of it "hot money" that flies right back out. On Wednesday, trading volume for Direxion Financial Bear 3X totaled 23.1 million shares on only two million shares outstanding -- implying an average holding period of less than 34 minutes.

Leveraged ETFs are perfectly suited to such itchy-fingered traders, who can obsessively adjust their holdings to maintain a targeted level of exposure.

But even some "financial advisers," who run ordinary investors' money, hang onto leveraged ETFs the way a sharpshooter clings to a favorite rifle. And if you don't understand how these funds work, you could take a bullet yourself. Their returns are predictable relative to the index only if you own them for one day or less. Over longer periods, say a week or more, these funds can wander wildly away from the underlying index.

When a market is trending in the same direction, a leveraged ETF can race ahead as it adjusts its leverage to its rising assets, jacking up its exposure to the market's next move. Last Nov. 4 through Nov. 20, the Russell 1000 index of large stocks kept falling until it lost 25.6%. In response, Direxion Large Cap Bear 3X, an inverse fund, went up even more than its triple target; it rose 109.2%, four times as much as the Russell went down.

What happens when a market doesn't take a straight path? Let's say you were bearish on China and invested $10,000 in ProShares UltraShort FTSE/Xinhua China 25 on Oct. 9, 2008. Each day the Chinese market went down, this double-reverse fund went up twice as much. It also fell twice as much on any day when China rose.

These swings make it hard for a leveraged fund to match its targeted return in the long run; each loss requires a bigger gain just to get back to break-even. As the Chinese market heaved up and down over the next nine tumultuous trading days, $10,000 invested in Chinese stocks would have dropped to less than $9,200, a cumulative loss of 8%. Did the ultra-short fund deliver twice the opposite, or a 16% gain? No: According to data from Morningstar, it shriveled to $7,838, a 21.6% loss. So much for longer-term hedging.

Still, many financial advisers believe these funds are a good long-term hedge against falling markets. At a recent conference, roughly 50 financial advisers besieged Matthew Hougan, editor of IndexUniverse.com, a financial Web site, asking him to explain how leveraged ETFs work. Some "are starting to understand," says Mr. Hougan, "but there is still a huge contingent out there who don't."

Like an amen corner, the leveraged ETF firms all say they keep trying to scare off long-term investors. The funds "are not a buy-and-hold vehicle," warns Michael Sapir, chairman of ProShare Advisors. "These products are designed for trading use, not to be hedging tools," insists Carl Resnick, vice president at Rydex Investments. Holding a leveraged ETF for longer than a day, says Andy O'Rourke, marketing chief at Direxion Funds, is "like using a toaster to cook a turkey."

The bottom line: Leveraged ETFs are for day traders. You can't manage long-term risk with a short-term tool -- especially not with one that can blow up in your face.

Write to Jason Zweig at [email protected]


 
Originally Posted by reigndrop

Originally Posted by theconditioner


Quick Question:

Does anyone actually research companies' fundamentals, rather than look at the technicals?
Lol you have too. Technical's isn't everything, if the company has a lot of debt, but has great technicals, you're buying into some fragile ground. Our technical and fundamental department work closely with each other.

I know that, but i'm not seeing much discussion on it. That's why I asked.
 
Originally Posted by theconditioner

Originally Posted by reigndrop

Originally Posted by theconditioner


Quick Question:

Does anyone actually research companies' fundamentals, rather than look at the technicals?
Lol you have too. Technical's isn't everything, if the company has a lot of debt, but has great technicals, you're buying into some fragile ground. Our technical and fundamental department work closely with each other.

I know that, but i'm not seeing much discussion on it. That's why I asked.
I haven't made any recommendations, but a lot of the recommendations that DKY has made are very strong/weak fundamentally. i.e. Gold andFinancials
 
Originally Posted by reigndrop

A good article on leveraged ETF's for my fellow NTer's as I await my marathon flight to Singapore.

[h1]How Managing Risk With ETFs Can Backfire[/h1]
  • [h3]By JASON ZWEIG[/h3]
renocol_JasonZweig.gif



Alcohol ads urge us to "drink responsibly." Cigarette packs are emblazoned with the surgeon general's warnings about cancer. And the firms that sell leveraged exchange-traded funds keep begging individual investors not to buy the things because they are meant only for short-term trading and can have erratic long-term returns.

Nonetheless, roughly 13,000 people are killed in alcohol-related crashes each year, over 33 million Americans smoke at least once a day -- and more than $2 billion has poured into leveraged ETFs so far this year, much of it from financial advisers and retail investors who hang on too long.

ETFs are funds that trade during the day like stocks. A leveraged ETF seeks to use futures and other derivatives to multiply the daily return of a market index. Some, called "ultra," "2X" or "3X bull," attempt to double or triple the market's return each day. Others try to double or triple the opposite of an index's return; on a day when the market goes down, these "ultra-short," "inverse 2X" or "3X bear" funds should go up two or three times as much.

On Thursday, the Standard & Poor's 500-stock index dropped 1.6%. ProShares UltraShort S&P500, which tries to deliver twice the inverse of the index's daily return, went up 3.2% -- right on target.

MI-AV326_INVEST_D_20090227210414.jpg
Heath Hinegardner

So why bother with a boring index fund when you could double or triple your money by using a leveraged ETF? And why helplessly watch your stocks wither away when an inverse leveraged fund could let you mint money in a falling market?

There are 106 such funds with $46 billion in assets, much of it "hot money" that flies right back out. On Wednesday, trading volume for Direxion Financial Bear 3X totaled 23.1 million shares on only two million shares outstanding -- implying an average holding period of less than 34 minutes.

Leveraged ETFs are perfectly suited to such itchy-fingered traders, who can obsessively adjust their holdings to maintain a targeted level of exposure.

But even some "financial advisers," who run ordinary investors' money, hang onto leveraged ETFs the way a sharpshooter clings to a favorite rifle. And if you don't understand how these funds work, you could take a bullet yourself. Their returns are predictable relative to the index only if you own them for one day or less. Over longer periods, say a week or more, these funds can wander wildly away from the underlying index.

When a market is trending in the same direction, a leveraged ETF can race ahead as it adjusts its leverage to its rising assets, jacking up its exposure to the market's next move. Last Nov. 4 through Nov. 20, the Russell 1000 index of large stocks kept falling until it lost 25.6%. In response, Direxion Large Cap Bear 3X, an inverse fund, went up even more than its triple target; it rose 109.2%, four times as much as the Russell went down.

What happens when a market doesn't take a straight path? Let's say you were bearish on China and invested $10,000 in ProShares UltraShort FTSE/Xinhua China 25 on Oct. 9, 2008. Each day the Chinese market went down, this double-reverse fund went up twice as much. It also fell twice as much on any day when China rose.

These swings make it hard for a leveraged fund to match its targeted return in the long run; each loss requires a bigger gain just to get back to break-even. As the Chinese market heaved up and down over the next nine tumultuous trading days, $10,000 invested in Chinese stocks would have dropped to less than $9,200, a cumulative loss of 8%. Did the ultra-short fund deliver twice the opposite, or a 16% gain? No: According to data from Morningstar, it shriveled to $7,838, a 21.6% loss. So much for longer-term hedging.

Still, many financial advisers believe these funds are a good long-term hedge against falling markets. At a recent conference, roughly 50 financial advisers besieged Matthew Hougan, editor of IndexUniverse.com, a financial Web site, asking him to explain how leveraged ETFs work. Some "are starting to understand," says Mr. Hougan, "but there is still a huge contingent out there who don't."

Like an amen corner, the leveraged ETF firms all say they keep trying to scare off long-term investors. The funds "are not a buy-and-hold vehicle," warns Michael Sapir, chairman of ProShare Advisors. "These products are designed for trading use, not to be hedging tools," insists Carl Resnick, vice president at Rydex Investments. Holding a leveraged ETF for longer than a day, says Andy O'Rourke, marketing chief at Direxion Funds, is "like using a toaster to cook a turkey."

The bottom line: Leveraged ETFs are for day traders. You can't manage long-term risk with a short-term tool -- especially not with one that can blow up in your face.

Write to Jason Zweig at [email protected]




can i get a link to the article?
 
Originally Posted by thagreatj

so is the prediction of gold hitting 2000 and 10,000 still on.

Don't know if it'll go up that high, but it's going to go up regardless so buy up while it's still reasonably priced.
 
andycrazn, it was from the wall street journal: How Managing Risk With ETFs Can Backfire

"Holding a leveraged ETF for longer than a day, says Andy O'Rourke, marketing chief at Direxion Funds, is 'like using a toaster to cook aturkey.'"

couldn't agree more. in the last three days, you could have bought FAS in the morning, sell around midday, buy FAZ and sell before close and make around10+ %.
 
Originally Posted by ThrowedInDaGame

I cant wait for the dow to drop below 7,000 so i can cop these ETFs!!!!!!
Why not cop some of the 2x and 3x inverse's on the way down.
 
Originally Posted by foodgoeshere

andycrazn, it was from the wall street journal: How Managing Risk With ETFs Can Backfire

"Holding a leveraged ETF for longer than a day, says Andy O'Rourke, marketing chief at Direxion Funds, is 'like using a toaster to cook a turkey.'"

couldn't agree more. in the last three days, you could have bought FAS in the morning, sell around midday, buy FAZ and sell before close and make around 10+ %.
thanks and yea i learned that the hard way.... held it for 3 days.....
 
6 handle but no capitulation in sight
smh.gif
sick.gif


When markets are this oversold and dont bounce on technicals I would be very afraid.

Must....hold...700 on the S&P this week...come on PPT hook it up.

laugh.gif
at these "asset managers" on CNBC who have been calling abottom all the the way down from 10,000 and still calling it
roll.gif


Do these people not realize that most of the money in the market from the last few years was 401k and Mutual Fund inflows which have now reversed to outflowsat an alarming rate. People with no jobs dont buy stocks
laugh.gif
 
Originally Posted by theone2401

6 handle but no capitulation in sight
smh.gif
sick.gif


When markets are this oversold and dont bounce on technicals I would be very afraid.

Must....hold...700 on the S&P this week...come on PPT hook it up.

laugh.gif
at these "asset managers" on CNBC who have been calling a bottom all the the way down from 10,000 and still calling it
roll.gif
Seriously, you and me could be on a program with the folks they got. Imagine DKY on something like this.
Whatever, though, I'd say what they want me to if they're hooking me up with the beezies they have solely for eye candy.
 
Originally Posted by theone2401

6 handle but no capitulation in sight
smh.gif
sick.gif


When markets are this oversold and dont bounce on technicals I would be very afraid.

Must....hold...700 on the S&P this week...come on PPT hook it up.

laugh.gif
at these "asset managers" on CNBC who have been calling a bottom all the the way down from 10,000 and still calling it
roll.gif


Do these people not realize that most of the money in the market from the last few years was 401k and Mutual Fund inflows which have now reversed to outflows at an alarming rate. People with no jobs dont buy stocks
laugh.gif
 
True $$*#. The good part is it's not too late to start shorting.

Shoulda started on Feb. 9th though.
 
Originally Posted by LazyJ10

Originally Posted by theone2401

6 handle but no capitulation in sight
smh.gif
sick.gif


When markets are this oversold and dont bounce on technicals I would be very afraid.

Must....hold...700 on the S&P this week...come on PPT hook it up.

laugh.gif
at these "asset managers" on CNBC who have been calling a bottom all the the way down from 10,000 and still calling it
roll.gif
Seriously, you and me could be on a program with the folks they got. Imagine DKY on something like this.
Whatever, though, I'd say what they want me to if they're hooking me up with the beezies they have solely for eye candy.
That is why I could never be a company shill. They are telling their clients to go all in and this is the buying opportunity of a lifetime so theycan keep trading and get those commissions all the way to the damn bottom. Id be the worst manager in the business cause Id be telling all my clients to golong guns, ammo, and security guards.

Its all good though these guys 15 minutes are just about over. Once people finally get sick of stocks...and they will....these guys will actually have to finda job that actually produces something instead of being professional money makers.
 
We just broke 6,900. It's so odd that everything around seems normal too when financially in the world all hell is breaking loose.
 
Originally Posted by nicefro

We just broke 6,900. It's so odd that everything around seems normal too when financially in the world all hell is breaking loose.

That is what is so scary. These last few weeks have been some of the most orderly selling off we have seen since this whole mess began. There has been what onesignificant green day the last two weeks? Where is the bounce...where is the huge sell off?
 
Anyone take me up on that Dell pick a few pages back??

And yes, SMH at these people who have been calling "bottom" sense 10k. Same people come out and call it at 9k...8k...now below 7k...


This recession will however end, all recessions do. It may be a LONG time. But buying opportunities of a lifetime will be there when it does however bottom, inthe stock market as well as RE markets. People will become rich off the turn around, even though a turn around in the markets seems impossible anytime soon.
 
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