School Me On This Russia/Ukraine Kerfuffle

[fluid hips]

And?

The logic you're following is 19th century imperialism, which led to colonization. There are more efficient ways to get access to the resources you need than creating vassal states/colonies (which, BTW, didn't work well for imperialistic France, Britain, Spain, and Portugal).

I just don't know why so many of you here choose to forget that before the attempts to expand Russian territory became obvious, the West willingly traded with Russia, to the point where European nations made Moscow a strategic partner by relying on their energy: Germany closed down its nuclear power plants and relied on Russian gas in their plan to transition to renewables. The UK overlooked the multiple assassinations Russian agents perpetrated on its territory for the sake of this economic relationship. All of Europe overlooked Russian intervention in Georgia because of they cared more about making Russia an economic partner. Putin decided otherwise.

Nobody with sense wants to go back to the days where geographical expansion was considered a valid geopolitical strategy. That alone is why opposing Russian actions in Ukraine is the moral position to take. Humanity suffered through 2 great wars because of it.

The west would rather have Russia's vast resources for free than pay for them in trade agreements.

No one cared about Georgia because it's not of strategic importance. Britain didn't care about assassination attempts because they were on russian asylum seekers not the royal family or members of parliament.

This is a game of chess that most can't comprehend. The west dangled NATO membership like a carrot to Ukraine. They wanted to build missile bases in Ukraine and obviously the Russians weren't going to allow that the same way the US wasn't going to allow the soviet missile base in Cuba.

 

[gry60]

The west dangled NATO membership like a carrot to Ukraine.

Do you understand how NATO membership works? You have to approach the organization to be considered. That's why Putin supported the pro-Russia government of Ukraine until their population got rid of them. The population wanted rapprochement with Europe.

Your statement misses the reality that the peoples of former Soviet republics exhibit the same level of disdain (and even outright hate) for Russia that many African peoples have for their former colonial powers because they consider Russia a colonial power. Talk to anyone from Eastern Europe, especially those who lived under the USSR, and it'll become apparent really quickly.

You could have argued that NATO could have refused considering the inclusion of Ukraine: that could have happened since Turkey could have been swayed by Russian diplomats to make a Ukrainian NATO bid unsuccessful (Sweden and Finland were also neutral prior to the invasion). Putin threw all of that away when he decided to invade (after taking control of Eastern Ukrainian territories in 2014).

So, no matter how you slice it, Russia miscalculated. They used Western overtures to sow discord within the EU via misinformation campaigns, and they thought the West was too disorganized to respond to Putin's own expansionist ambitions.

Britain didn't care about assassination attempts because they were on russian asylum seekers

- You mean Russian defectors to the UK.
- I don't know of a single country that tolerates assassinations on their soil, especially when they're that public. There is usually a backlash, either diplomatically (kick out the offending country's ambassador), or clandestinely (for countries with the ability to project that kind of power).

The west would rather have Russia's vast resources for free than pay for them in trade agreements.

The Soviet Union got dismantled and nobody from outside of its republics got **** for free because the republics were still within the sphere of influence of Russia, which was a nuclear entity (and thus, impossible to invade). The same thing will happen if Russia ever breaks up, so this plan makes little sense.

Speaking of the nuclear stuff: the West doesn't want to lose its superiority by way of runaway nuclear tech proliferation, so a disorganized but whole Russia is still better than a dissolved Russia for that reason alone.

 

[fargin]

Been a year, been ten years in fact and Ukraine still stands.



"Good evening everyone! Leader of the faction is here. Head of the president’s administration is here. Prime Minister Shmyhal is here. Podoliak is here. The President is here. We are all here. Our military are here. Citizens and society are here. We are all here defending our independence, our state and it will remain so. Glory to our defenders! Glory to our women defenders! Glory to Ukraine! Glory to heroes!"

 

[sneeker]

The west would rather have Russia's vast resources for free than pay for them in trade agreements.

No one cared about Georgia because it's not of strategic importance. Britain didn't care about assassination attempts because they were on russian asylum seekers not the royal family or members of parliament.

This is a game of chess that most can't comprehend. The west dangled NATO membership like a carrot to Ukraine. They wanted to build missile bases in Ukraine and obviously the Russians weren't going to allow that the same way the US wasn't going to allow the soviet missile base in Cuba.

fact of the matter is, Ukraine wanted to be a part of NATO without NATO forcing itself into them. Ukraine rejected Russia and the latter's action especially invasion only showed who's forcing the issue. Russia's vast resources? you mean like oil, gas and diamonds? why do you think Russia is being aggressive with it's territorial expansion? Russia is playing the victim card like they are being threatened by NATO to justify their invasion of territories in Europe. obviously, the Russian Oligarchs are just too greedy that what they are getting from Russia's resources is not enough and the common Russian person is just too scared to take action against such regime.

I had a discussion with a Ukrainian guy many years ago and how I said to him how I admired Russia and that it would be good to have them as an ally. I can still see his face and told me in a stern voice and said be careful what you wished for. he said, everything you see is not what it seems, don't you "ever" trust the russians. they don't give something that they don't take 10 folds.

 

[biggie62]

fact of the matter is, Ukraine wanted to be a part of NATO without NATO forcing itself into them. Ukraine rejected Russia and the latter's action especially invasion only showed who's forcing the issue. Russia's vast resources? you mean like oil, gas and diamonds? why do you think Russia is being aggressive with it's territorial expansion? Russia is playing the victim card like they are being threatened by NATO to justify their invasion of territories in Europe. obviously, the Russian Oligarchs are just to greedy that what they are getting from Russia's resources is not enough and the common Russian person is just too scared to take action against such regime.

I had a discussion with a Ukrainian guy many years ago and how I said to him how I admired Russia and that it would be good to have them as an ally. I can still see his face and told me in a stern voice and said be careful what you wished for. he said, everything you see is not what it seems, don't you "ever" trust the russians. they don't give something that you don't return 10 folds.

As a Pole you are essentially taught the same thing. Russia was just a colonizer of Slavic countries. Under the USSR the coal that was mined in Poland and not used by Poles was shipping back to Russia and stored in one of their wear houses. They literally just exploited you like the English French etc would do.

 

[fargin]

Just so you guys know what kind of people we're talking about.

 

[John Wick]

Zelensky Allegedly Claims USA Will Have To Send "Sons & Daughters" To Fight In Ukraine If They Don't Deal With Russia Now!

Posted by Thrillz

worldstar.com

 

[jape]

worldstar? really?

 

[John Wick]

worldstar? really?

does the site discredit what was said by the reporters?

here is the same video but on YouTube better??

 

[trynafeelmink]

This dude is annoying as hell man

 

[Hijo Del Promo]

I wont even fight the DMV, im def not fighting for Ukraine.

 

[steevoo1]

Clip of Volodymyr Zelenskiy discussing U.S. support to Ukraine taken out of context online

A short clip of Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy discussing U.S. support to Ukraine and repercussions should Russia invade a NATO member state has been taken out of context online with the false suggestion that he was calling for U.S. troops to fight on the ground in Ukraine.

www.reuters.com

 

[heelsandeers]

Clip of Volodymyr Zelenskiy discussing U.S. support to Ukraine taken out of context online

A short clip of Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy discussing U.S. support to Ukraine and repercussions should Russia invade a NATO member state has been taken out of context online with the false suggestion that he was calling for U.S. troops to fight on the ground in Ukraine.

www.reuters.com

So the usual suspects are in here posting BS? Who could've guessed

 

[gry60]

So the usual suspects are in here posting BS? Who could've guessed

It's funny too, considering the reason: "Ukrainians are racist against Africans!"

I would love to know how many of these dudes knew about the treatment of African students in Russian streets long before 2022.

Nigerian Student Hospitalized After Knife Attack in Southern Russia

A student from Nigeria has been hospitalized in southern Russia after a knife-wielding assailant stabbed him in the neck.Racially motivated violence has been a sore subject for Russia despite indications that aggression toward Africans in the country has been decreasing.

www.themoscowtimes.com

Racially motivated violence has been a sore subject for Russia despite indications that aggression toward Africans in the country has been decreasing. At least 57 acts of violence against black people were registered in Russia in 2010-2016, according to a tally of hate crimes by Russia's SOVA Center for Information and Analysis.

African Migrants Find a Home at Moscow Charity

Kevin has always wanted to be a basketball player, and he looks the part.

www.themoscowtimes.com

According to statistics, racially motivated aggression towards Africans in Moscow has been decreasing. But it's still a talking point at the community center. The MPC's biannual report for 2015 details several cases of harassment and violence towards blacks, suggesting that the issue isn't confined to right-wing factions and hooligans.


One report detailed a case of institutionalized discrimination. In May, a pregnant Congolese woman was denied treatment for an asthma attack at one hospital near Partizanskaya metro because doctors thought "she looked contagious." The woman was taken to two different clinics before being given a sedative for the asthma and a small fold-out bed in the ward. Despite the legal right to free emergency care, the woman was told the following day she had to pay 9,000 rubles for every day she stayed in the hospital.

 

[trynafeelmink]

I'm a little confused at the point of posting that Reuters article, as if that changes anything. All that information was readily available in the initial video & his reasoning behind making the comments is still ridiculous .

Also Trying to minimize Ukraine's blatant racism because Russia also does it is wild, but expected from some of ya'll.

 

[fargin]

I believe Russia uses the term willing idiots of those, who can be tricked easily into running their imperialist and genocidal errands.

 

[heelsandeers]

It's funny too, considering the reason: "Ukrainians are racist against Africans!"

I would love to know how many of these dudes knew about the treatment of African students in Russian streets long before 2022.

Is this the reason? It’s hard to keep track

I’d guess the treatment of Africans in east Europe was not something any of these people considered pre-Russian invasion

If that is a concern well…. talk about missing the forest for the trees

 

[gry60]

Also Trying to minimize Ukraine's blatant racism because Russia also does it is wild, but expected from some of ya'll.

I'm not minimizing what happened to Africans students in Ukraine. That was wrong. What I'm not gonna buy into, is this idea that Russia is fighting Nazism and racism, especially when their leaders have spoken up against the idea of diversity and when we know their cities have been notorious for not being welcoming to Africans.

This is who you support:





Of course, Russian troops currently occupy the Moldovan region of Transnistria (same play they pulled in Georgia and Ukraine).

 

[gry60]

Is this the reason? It’s hard to keep track

I’d guess the treatment of Africans in east Europe was not something any of these people considered pre-Russian invasion

If that is a concern well…. talk about missing the forest for the trees

Pretty much.

I'll say this though: Russia IS popular in many African countries.

While most governments stay neutral to avoid Western sanctions and keep the shipments of Ukrainian wheat coming in, their populations are more openly antagonistic to Ukraine and the West. The behavior of Ukrainian border guards was a factor; another one is the historical hostility that exists for Western nations in the region (especially for those people/politicians who lived through the cold war conflicts). Finally, there's the general lack of knowledge about the role of Russia in Eastern Europe. These factors have allowed Russian messaging to grow deep and wide on the continent.

 

[sneeker]

While some of you are quite concerned about racism, do any of you think that this is also the ploy of Russia? Russia is not winning this war militarily and does not express support from the majority of all countries except India, China, Iran. So it could be playing the race card to gain support. Speaking of racism, any country has a few concerns but shouldn't distract the fact that Russia is invading a territory that is not theirs.

 

[John Wick]

I'm a little confused at the point of posting that Reuters article, as if that changes anything. All that information was readily available in the initial video & his reasoning behind making the comments is still ridiculous .

right that article posted from Reuters just confirms what was said by the reporters in the video. The reasoning behind Zelenksy saying USA will send troops when NATO countries get attacked is a far reach.

 

[trynafeelmink]

I'm not minimizing what happened to Africans students in Ukraine. That was wrong. What I'm not gonna buy into, is this idea that Russia is fighting Nazism and racism, especially when their leaders have spoken up against the idea of diversity and when we know their cities have been notorious for not being welcoming to Africans.

This is who you support:





Of course, Russian troops currently occupy the Moldovan region of Transnistria (same play they pulled in Georgia and Ukraine).

???? at what point did i ever say or even suggest that Russia was fighting Nazism or racism , I also never stated that i supported Russia, Some of ya'll are stuck in this mindset of choose a side.

I'm just not gonna sit here & ride along with this stupid *** Russia = Bad, Ukraine = Good narrative western media been pushing for the last year. This super fake stance on morality that people have taken........... Ukraine took a 100 BILLION FROM AMERICA, do we really have to recap what this country did world wide & their disregard for human rights everywhere else?? Hell their disregard of human rights for their own citizens.

But now because they have Ukraine fighting a proxy war for them i'm supposed to sympathize, support & root for a country that actively has no regard for black lives? Countries get abused & violated by bigger powers everyday, hell we even fund some of it (Hello Israel ) but suddenly i'm supposed to have some extra compassion for Ukraine

 

[fargin]

Hopefully we are moving toward the final break up of the imperialist federation of soviet russia.

NATO/EU expansion is non-negotiable

 

[trynafeelmink]

This **** is a never ending scheme at this point

 

[sneeker]

???? at what point did i ever say or even suggest that Russia was fighting Nazism or racism , I also never stated that i supported Russia, Some of ya'll are stuck in this mindset of choose a side.

I'm just not gonna sit here & ride along with this stupid *** Russia = Bad, Ukraine = Good narrative western media been pushing for the last year. This super fake stance on morality that people have taken........... Ukraine took a 100 BILLION FROM AMERICA, do we really have to recap what this country did world wide & their disregard for human rights everywhere else?? Hell their disregard of human rights for their own citizens.

But now because they have Ukraine fighting a proxy war for them i'm supposed to sympathize, support & root for a country that actively has no regard for black lives? Countries get abused & violated by bigger powers everyday, hell we even fund some of it (Hello Israel ) but suddenly i'm supposed to have some extra compassion for Ukraine

Your logic sounds like a GOPs way of deflecting a concern.