The Official Anime & Manga Thread Vol: 三

[lexlieno]

 
About Kaioken from the wiki:

When Goku first mastered the Kaio-ken, the furthest he could handle was the Kaio-ken x4, but through training at 100x gravity and then later with his dramatic strength increase after his fight with Captain Ginyu, he was able to withstand astounding multiplications of the Kaio-ken technique, such as Kaio-ken x10. The highest multiplication for the Kaio-ken ever seen was the Kaio-ken x20, which Goku used against Frieza. The technique, however, has its substantial flaws. If the user multiplies their base ki too much, the uprise of ki could easily obliterate them, or severely damage their body, as it did Goku's. After using the Kaio-ken x4 to overpower Vegeta's Galick Gun, Goku's entire body was thrashed, and he could barely move without hurting himself. Even one friendly slap on the back from a gracious Yajirobe  caused Goku to scream out in agony

The seem similar, but that's because Oda drew lots of inspiration from there, but they're different universes. Yeah, at Enies Lobby Luffy had never trained for G2 or G3, he had only had them in mind after fighting Aokiji. On the train he mentions he has new attacks he wants to try out, but other than that they came out of nowhere, like Asura and Diable Jamble. Those 2 still haven't been properly explained. G2 also allowed his body to handle Soru, since he figured out that technique at Water 7. 

100x gravity bruh.....I'd love to see luffy train in that.

 

[tdogg2k]

Bro, can you stop with the DBZ comparison?  These are two different universes, they are not the same and can't be compared.  It's so ridiculous, it's stupid.  You keep saying the same thing every time.  You're out of this debate.  

Why shouldn't I compare two mangas together? especially when DBZ is the one where most artist pull that inspiration from?
Why even care if luffy can train in that type of gravity. 2 different worlds right???

I just don't understand why we have 2 pages of this... I've already said, HE'S NOT GOING TO DIE BY USING G2 OR BECAUSE OF G2.

the climatic finish to this manga isn't going to be. "oi. Nami, my body is finished from using gear 2nd trying to protect you. take care of my crew" **croak die**

if anything this debate in general should've been over after the 1st page.

You're going after something that just simply won't happen.. and even if it does. thats at the very least 5 years from now. (real world 5 years not manga 5)
Nothing to worry about.

The Fujitora debate is more interesting to me.

 

[leb13]

I was just providing the definition for Kaioken to try to help clear things up some. They're similar in that they push the body past normal limits and cause physical damage. 

I don't think many OP characters would last long in the DB verse or do things those characters do.

Edit: Fuji is more interesting than G2 and Luffy's health, but what's there to debate with him?

 

[lexlieno]

Why shouldn't I compare two mangas together? especially when DBZ is the one where most artist pull that inspiration from?
Why even care if luffy can train in that type of gravity. 2 different worlds right???

I just don't understand why we have 2 pages of this... I've already said, HE'S NOT GOING TO DIE BY USING G2 OR BECAUSE OF G2.

the climatic finish to this manga isn't going to be. "oi. Nami, my body is finished from using gear 2nd trying to protect you. take care of my crew" **croak die**

if anything this debate in general should've been over after the 1st page.

You're going after something that just simply won't happen.. and even if it does. thats at the very least 5 years from now. (real world 5 years not manga 5)
Nothing to worry about.

The Fujitora debate is more interesting to me.

This is pure female logic.  This is the type of thing your girlfriend says when you get in an argument and she knows she's wrong.  This is why I said you don't belong in this debate.  A post I made damn near 18 hours ago basically could be used for every single post you've made.  Literally every single post.

 
You're still missing the point.  First off you can't compare it to DBZ because it's a totally different thing.  You realize no matter how hard he trains his body, G2 is to go beyond that point.  So he's going to go overload in the blood vessel category, dude. 

1).  I'm saying from constant use of using G2 in combination with all the other things he's been through, dude should be dead or should die soon.

2).  He uses it in like every main fight since he brought it out.  He uses it now!  He uses it so much he found short cuts on how to do it.

3).  You can't train blood vessels.  

Before you reply saying the same thing again, ask yourself, what's the point of G2?  Then after you write down "what if he trains his body to be stronger and have more stamina" again, remember what the point of G2 ...To go beyond your limit. BTW  you can't compare bone density to internal organs bruh...

All I'm saying is when you get down to the bottom of it, your argument is what if he makes his external stronger and better.  The real issue is that this is an internal deal that has nothing to do with his external.  

At the end of the day you're just arguing now because debates have points that counter your oppositions points.  I've pointed out numerously the difference in it not being about his physical abilities, but more with his internal structure.  You counter was Goku, Naruto, and Running 7 miles.  Let that marinate folks.  Also I pose a question to you.  If Ivankov came up to him right now if he were in a similar situation, and gave him the same shots after the timeskip, would it still do the same damage to his life force?

 

[black leg]

I was just providing the definition for Kaioken to try to help clear things up some. They're similar in that they push the body past normal limits and cause physical damage. 

I don't think many OP characters would last long in the DB verse or do things those characters do.

Edit: Fuji is more interesting than G2 and Luffy's health, but what's there to debate with him?

His country of origin, what he was doing prior to joining the Marines and whether or not he had the DF prior to him getting his position (likely not as he says him self he's still kinda sloppy with it). Not for debate but speculation I guess

 

[leb13]

His country of origin, what he was doing prior to joining the Marines and whether or not he had the DF prior to him getting his position (likely not as he says him self he's still kinda sloppy with it). Not for debate but speculation I guess

Yeah, well depending on how much Oda pulled from Zatoichi since that's seems to be the consensus on his character design, he could have been a bounty hunter or in a gang similar to Bartolomeo, before becoming a Marine. I think he may have previously known Akainu since he calls him Saka-san. I also think he may have gotten his fruit relatively recently, but it might have been a mistranslation in the text too. 

 

[delete1234]

Man Y'all ****** Trippin

 

[dont be a menace]

well I re-watched the fight with him and Blueno (the first time he used it) and Blueno was wondering if his body could handle the technique. At the end of the fight, even Luffy says that his body couldn't take it. so obviously after the 2 year skip his body could handle the technique better.

That's your assumption.  All I'm saying is how the hell can he train his internal organs/ blood flow to not negatively effect his body.  There are certain things you can train, and there are certain things you can't.  At the end of the day you realize that what your saying is, "yeah he's doing the same attack that we know caused him internal exhaustion and shortened his lifespan, but dude did hella push ups!  Now he can do the exact same thing just without posing! "  Y'all don'y get that he's doing the exact same technique.  There's no spacejam water that will make the internal damage stop.  Because at the end of the day he's still speeding up his blood flow( which is probably the main thing thats damaging him), stretching those blood vessels and robbing himself of nutrients and a very fast rate.  He might can isolate the damage with better control now, but he's still taking damage.

here's Lucci's explanation at 16:50


he does mention that Luffy doesn't have the stamina to keep up yet and is a foolish move since it hastens his life span. He says that pumping up the blood vessels is only possible because he's a rubberman therefore making his blood vessels and organs have a rubber quality to it as well. So Luffy already had the capability of pulling it off since he is a rubber man, it only shortens his lifespan because he doesn't have the stamina for it.

Lucci doesn't say that it's robbing nutrients out of Luffy, just that an ordinary person's heart wouldn't be able to stand the increased blood pressure and would burst due to it. So with more training and yes, using the same technique over and over, Luffy was able to gain more stamina and therefore could handle the effects of Gear 2nd better than he did at first.

 

[tdogg2k]

^ i said that.

This is pure female logic.  This is the type of thing your girlfriend says when you get in an argument and she knows she's wrong.  This is why I said you don't belong in this debate.  A post I made damn near 18 hours ago basically could be used for every single post you've made.  Literally every single post.

At the end of the day you're just arguing now because debates have points that counter your oppositions points.  I've pointed out numerously the difference in it not being about his physical abilities, but more with his internal structure.  You counter was Goku, Naruto, and Running 7 miles.  Let that marinate folks.  Also I pose a question to you.  If Ivankov came up to him right now if he were in a similar situation, and gave him the same shots after the timeskip, would it still do the same damage to his life force?

funny how you're the same person who said. "its not that serious bro"
were all just arguing 1. because we're passionate about the manga
2. we're slightly bored.

when his body stretches do you think its just his body and bones.?
what about when he eats takes a lot of stomach to hold that food.. remember when he swallowed all that water.
its not out the realm of possibility his vessels stretch and any and everything else. his body is rubber. and its manga.
sakaki in hsdk trained his internal orgams to shift during battle as he took a fist through the stomach and he doesn't have rubber powers.

but I shouldn't be crossing manga comparisons since the universe is different and its so taboo

 

[lexlieno]

here's Lucci's explanation at 16:50he does mention that Luffy doesn't have the stamina to keep up yet and is a foolish move since it hastens his life span. He says that pumping up the blood vessels is only possible because he's a rubberman therefore making his blood vessels and organs have a rubber quality to it as well. So Luffy already had the capability of pulling it off since he is a rubber man, it only shortens his lifespan because he doesn't have the stamina for it.

Lucci doesn't say that it's robbing nutrients out of Luffy, just that an ordinary person's heart wouldn't be able to stand the increased blood pressure and would burst due to it. So with more training and yes, using the same technique over and over, Luffy was able to gain more stamina and therefore could handle the effects of Gear 2nd better than he did at first.

At least someone has said something different.  Good point, but the wiki explains most of what's going on :

This technique involves Luffy speeding up the blood flow in all or selected body parts, in order to provide them with more oxygen and nutrients. This makes him much faster and more powerful. The technique uses even more oxygen and energy, using up more food and causing Luffy to pant heavily.[sup][1][/sup]The increase in his metabolism causes him to be hungrier than usual or even have a paralysis type effect after prolonged use of it, like in the second fight with Rob Lucci, where Luffy was only able to lie on the floor. Lucci, one of the first of Luffy's opponents to witness it, compares the process to doping. Doping is adding more red blood cells to the body part/s, which in turn allows for greater delivery of oxygen and nutrients to the body part/s. In Luffy's case, his organs and blood vessels are made of rubber allowing them to expand and contract at greater rates without tearing. Essentially Luffy increases the blood flow by forcing more blood through his blood vessels thus increase his fighting ability. 

In any case the same effects take place internally. Even though you've brought in something new to the debate, something similar has already been discussed.  What would be the point of going G2 if it'll give you the same strength you already have? G2 is to go beyond that limit.  You have to think of it as whenever he goes G2 he won't have the stamina to stay in it because it's pushing him past his limit.  Because at the end of the day why use G2 if his physical is already on G2 level without the hassle of upping his blood flow.  You simply can't build stamina for something designed to be used when you're past your limit.  No matter what you say, He's still speeding up his blood flow whenever he uses the technique.  Which in turn, robs him of nutrients and damaging his internal state.

 

[leb13]

but I shouldn't be crossing manga comparisons since the universe is different and its so taboo

That's not taboo. A lot of people do match ups across universes, it's just usually each verse has different laws for their characters. It shouldn't be a big issue tho. It's not like it was a farfetched comparison. At least IMO

 

[dont be a menace]

here's Lucci's explanation at 16:50
he does mention that Luffy doesn't have the stamina to keep up yet and is a foolish move since it hastens his life span. He says that pumping up the blood vessels is only possible because he's a rubberman therefore making his blood vessels and organs have a rubber quality to it as well. So Luffy already had the capability of pulling it off since he is a rubber man, it only shortens his lifespan because he doesn't have the stamina for it.


Lucci doesn't say that it's robbing nutrients out of Luffy, just that an ordinary person's heart wouldn't be able to stand the increased blood pressure and would burst due to it. So with more training and yes, using the same technique over and over, Luffy was able to gain more stamina and therefore could handle the effects of Gear 2nd better than he did at first.

At least someone has said something different.  Good point, but the wiki explains most of what's going on :

This technique involves Luffy speeding up the blood flow in all or selected body parts, in order to provide them with more oxygen and nutrients. This makes him much faster and more powerful. The technique uses even more oxygen and energy, using up more food and causing Luffy to pant heavily.[sup][1]
[/sup]
The increase in his metabolism causes him to be hungrier than usual or even have a paralysis type effect after prolonged use of it, like in the second fight with Rob Lucci
, where Luffy was only able to lie on the floor. Lucci, one of the first of Luffy's opponents to witness it, compares the process to doping. Doping is adding more red blood cells to the body part/s, which in turn allows for greater delivery of oxygen and nutrients to the body part/s. In Luffy's case, his organs and blood vessels are made of rubber allowing them to expand and contract at greater rates without tearing. Essentially Luffy increases the blood flow by forcing more blood through his blood vessels thus increase his fighting ability. 

In any case the same effects take place internally. Even though you've brought in something new to the debate, something similar has already been discussed.  What would be the point of going G2 if it'll give you the same strength you already have? G2 is to go beyond that limit.  You have to think of it as whenever he goes G2 he won't have the stamina to stay in it because it's pushing him past his limit.  Because at the end of the day why use G2 if his physical is already on G2 level without the hassle of upping his blood flow.  You simply can't build stamina for something designed to be used when you're past your limit.  No matter what you say, He's still speeding up his blood flow whenever he uses the technique.  Which in turn, robs him of nutrients and damaging his internal state.

well now you're quoting from wiki. I can't seem to remember anywhere in the OP manga/anime where it was broken down to that point where they said it was stealing his nutrients. And even then, Lucci compared it to doping which your wiki quote says it delivers oxygen and nutrients to the body in greater quantities so it's not robbing him of nutrients, it's providing him with greater amounts which he's using up in a short time. He compensates for that by eating lots of food since his metabolism rises from using it. And your quote doesn't say anything about damaging his internal state, it only says that his metabolism increases and his body suffers from temporary paralysis. And gear 2nd isn't used for when Luffy is past his limit, it's used to push his limits hence the boost in strength, speed, etc.

So once again, taking what was said in the manga/anime and no wikis, fan theorys, etc. Here is what Lucci said

 

[lexlieno]

well now you're quoting from wiki. I can't seem to remember anywhere in the OP manga/anime where it was broken down to that point where they said it was stealing his nutrients. And even then, Lucci compared it to doping which your wiki quote says it delivers oxygen and nutrients to the body in greater quantities so it's not robbing him of nutrients, it's providing him with greater amounts which he's using up in a short time. He compensates for that by eating lots of food since his metabolism rises from using it. And your quote doesn't say anything about damaging his internal state, it only says that his metabolism increases and his body suffers from temporary paralysis. And gear 2nd isn't used for when Luffy is past his limit, it's used to push his limits hence the boost in strength, speed, etc.

So once again, taking what was said in the manga/anime and no wikis, fan theorys, etc. Here is what Lucci said

This is debating!  I like it.  I'll respond when I finish eating my Jason's deli and watching arrested development.

Edit: Yes, it's like doping!  The thing about doping is you have to either inject something for blood doping to happen.  Luffy is just making his blood flow go much faster.  He's doping without dope.  That sounds ridiculous, but it is what it is.  Delivering oxygen and nutrients from where? Himself.  Basically because of  the accelerated speed at which nutrients are used up depletes his body rapidly, hence him passing out during the fight.  You can't compensate for what's been already done to the body.  I'll chop your last sentence up as to you just....i don't even know.  I was going to say just not reading, but if that's the case it would be pointless to respond.  You literally said the exact same thing as to what G2 is used for that I said in the statement you quoted....

.What would be the point of going G2 if it'll give you the same strength you already have? G2 is to go beyond that limit. = And gear 2nd isn't used for when Luffy is past his limit, it's used to push his limits hence the boost in strength, speed, etc.

 

[tdogg2k]

I no longer care anymore.


Hate to spoil the fun for the night.
If you want to hold my statements against me. get at me in 5-10 years when OP is over and if he actually dies from G2 use.

leb13
as far as fujitora, trying to figure out if he's dropping asteroids, or if he's just creating huge boulders, sending them up then dropping them back down.
I think the latter is happening personally.

 

[leb13]

@leb13
as far as fujitora, trying to figure out if he's dropping asteroids, or if he's just creating huge boulders, sending them up then dropping them back down.
I think the latter is happening personally.

why do you think it's the latter? We've never seen him send anything up.

 

[lexlieno]

I no longer care anymore.


Hate to spoil the fun for the night.
If you want to hold my statements against me. get at me in 5-10 years when OP is over and if he actually dies from G2 use.

@leb13
as far as fujitora, trying to figure out if he's dropping asteroids, or if he's just creating huge boulders, sending them up then dropping them back down.
I think the latter is happening personally.

real talk, I'll hate myself if I'm still into this ^&() in 5-10 years.

My theory as to Fuji is that he is a land slide/ Earthman or something.  Gravity is too powerful for any character and a meteorman is too absurd. 

 

[2sappy]

why do you think it's the latter? We've never seen him send anything up.

What I want to know is how is he pinpointing where the meteors are in relation to him.
Is observation haki must be insane in order to do that.

 

[leb13]

What I want to know is how is he pinpointing where the meteors are in relation to him.

Is observation haki must be insane in order to do that.

probably helps that he's blind, but yeah pinpointing it is crazy. I hope we get more explanation this arc. Oda has a tendency not to explain people's powers until they're central figures.

 

[lexlieno]

On second thought, dude must be a gravity user.

 

[leb13]

 
On second thought, dude must be a gravity user.

Law said he uses gravity right before he escaped from being pinned down.

 

[lexlieno]

word, so...I wonder what his downside is...his haki should makeup for him being blind.  I wonder about the other admiral.  Also....whats the downside to haki?  In the rock-papers-scissors view, nothing trumps haki.  Df has 3 setbacks, seawater, sea stone, and haki.

 

[leb13]

haki can be overcome by stronger haki and immense physical strength like when Luffy fought Boa's sisters or when Hody bit him, but he said that was just because he hasn't developed his enough. CoA at least. But they can still use their powers when touched by haki.  Observation haki is sketchy cause it seems like people use it randomly, it hasn't been really effective in fights where multiple people have it. Conqueror's has barely been explained either. There's theories that really strong conqueror's haki can affect the weather and physical objects. I don't see any real downside, well none that have been mentioned yet, to using it if trained properly in it. 

I think Fuji's limitation are that his range is crazy on the y axis, but on the x axis his range has been depicted as a circle and it's as only wide as that circle. The diameter of the circle appears to be the same as the length of his sword. That's the best way I can think of explaining it. You can go look at the chapters to see what I mean. I looked at 713 and 723. To hold things down for extended periods it appears he has to concentrate on them too. And every time he's used his power he's had to unsheathe his sword. This is just based off what I've seen in chapter I could be completely off the mark because in 724 the meteors seem to come from a different angle. Idk what the obvious counter would be for his power.

The rumor for the other new admiral Green bull is that he'll be based on mushashi miyamoto, which would most likely make him a samurai from Wano. His DF may be nature or earth powers or he could be a zoan to have 1 paramecia, 1 zoan, and 1 logia. 

 

[the docster]

Yeah Fuji is interesting.

How does he know where the meteors are? How does he pull them down to attack?

When we see him use his ability to hold down Law, he is using his sword to apply the gravity.

When he drops those dudes after he lost that roulette game, using the sword again.

So if he is using his sword as a means to use his gravity power, how the **** is he pulling down a damn meteor? Or even throwing a damn ship?

 

[tdogg2k]

What I want to know is how is he pinpointing where the meteors are in relation to him.
Is observation haki must be insane in order to do that.

if he's pinpointing and dropping down meteors from space no way he's an average dude
hes a beast

 

[lexlieno]

if he's pinpointing and dropping down meteors from space no way he's an average dude
hes a beast

Exactly! Ironically enough, that's what Dofla called him, a beast.  Two things come to mind when thinking about that.  The first is that's too much power for one character.  He's like Pein/Madara in one. That power combined with Haki!?!? Dude is all poweful.  The second thought is how powerful all the other heavy hitters must be!  One thing I've always thought about is if the Yonkou teamed up....just 2 out of the 4.  All 4 don't even have to team up.  why not tag team and take down the government?  That's their main enemy.  They can split up the land and take their resources.  It's split up to the 4 Yonkou, The Shichibukai, and the WG right? The warlords are the WG right? So how does that go.  Straight up do yall think the OG 7 Warlords could take on the pre-time skip WG? No fuji involved.