What would a player have to do to be considered greater than Jordan?

[grittyman20]

Man yall trying to hard.

It's very simple.

This man just needs to switch sports...and there would be no debate about who's better than Jordan

The GOAT

 

[agentpd21]

Jordan is G.O.A.T, nuff said.

 

[onetrust]

Originally Posted by luigi202

Originally Posted by kb8 3qwick

First off, I think that it's going to be hard for any player to pass him.

But, why is it such a big deal that he went 6 for 6 in the Finals and Jabbar only went 6 for 10. If I have a ten year career I prefer going to the finals all 10 seasons and losing 4 times than going 6 for 6. Making it to the Finals is a pretty difficult feat in itself.

Truth. LeBron gets penalized for making it early in his career? If the Pistons were in the West Jordan would've been about 6/9.  Jordan going 6 for 6 means that he didn't sniff the finals more times than not in his career. Please remove the wool.

Mike going 6 for 6 in the Finals means once he reaches the championship series, he does NOT lose.  Where as your other "greats" have.
  

 

[jsolesol11]

FLY

 

[memphisboi55]

See Wilt Chamberlain...

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Why are people just taking facts like "never losing in the finals" and making that as some magical criteria as to why a player is the GOAT?

Kareem, Magic, Bird & Shaq have all lost in the finals multiple times. Hakeem also lost in the finals. Tim Duncan on the other hand has been in 4 finals and hasn't lost a single time. But if you think that Duncan's greatness surpasses any of these 5 players, you're just flat out wrong.

Be honest, you're just taking this "never lost in the finals" out of convenience, because it's just a random fact about Jordan and you feel that it's convincing because it supports your agenda. It's certainly a nice accomplishment, and Jordan might be the GOAT, but he will never be the undisputed GOAT.

 

[xblker47]

Originally Posted by KB8sandiego

Lebron CAN be better then Jordan. Im not saying he will, but the way he is playing he certainly has the potential to be considered greater. But as everyone else has said. he must win at least 5+ championships.
  

 

[darthska]

Xtapolapacetl:

---

Why are people just taking facts like "never losing in the finals" and making that as some magical criteria as to why a player is the GOAT?

Kareem, Magic, Bird & Shaq have all lost in the finals multiple times. Hakeem also lost in the finals. Tim Duncan on the other hand has been in 4 finals and hasn't lost a single time. But if you think that Duncan's greatness surpasses any of these 5 players, you're just flat out wrong.

Be honest, you're just taking this "never lost in the finals" out of convenience, because it's just a random fact about Jordan and you feel that it's convincing because it supports your agenda. It's certainly a nice accomplishment, and Jordan might be the GOAT, but he will never be the undisputed GOAT.
First off, the reason he'll never be the undisputed GOAT has nothing to do with his stats not being bloated enough. As long as people have opinions, Jordan will never be the undisputed GOAT.

Second, it's not just that he was 6-0 in the Finals; he was 6-0 AND the MVP every time. Duncan can't say that, and even his undefeated Finals count is at 4, not 6. Kareem, Magic, Bird, and Shaq weren't the MVPs of every Finals they won. Saying Jordan was the MVP of all 6 of his Finals without ever losing one, putting up the highest playoff PPG of all time... I mean, all of that together paints a different picture than 'just' saying 'Oh, 6-0 in the Finals. Whoop-dee-do.'

 

[mjshoefanatic]

Lebron has plenty of time and opportunity.

 

[dmncn lew]

Kareem, Magic, Bird & Shaq have all lost in the finals multiple times.
Bottom line sports is a game of winning or losing. Either you win it or you don't! And like Kobe said, "Losing Championships means you're the 1st loser!" Michael Jordan always came up BIG! His best would beat your best! And if you're losing multiple championships then maybe you should work harder.

 

[shaq diesel 34]

I think They have to be literally better than Jordan.


Kobe might have a better Career than Jordan.. he could get 5 or 6 rings when it's said in done.. more playoff points.. big shots and all.. but everyone know he's not as good as MJ.

 

[kobefan23]

A few points:

--Jordan's resume is near perfection
--I think the 6/6 should count for something, but if someone went, say, 7/10, the losses should not make that accomplishment inferior to MJ
--Jordan's endorsements/kicks/etc should not be used in this discussion. We are solely judging his ability and accomplishments as a basketball player, NOT his impact on the league/fans/etc.
--Kareem's resume is incredibly impressive, but how much do we discount (if any?) for the fact that he played for so long and Jordan's career was much shorter?
--No one today is even close. Even if Kobe wins three more (7/9), he simply doesn't have the MVP's/scoring titles/etc as Jordan. LeBron may have the regular season stats/will get the MVP's, but he'll need 5-6 championships minimum to even get in the discussion.

So in summary: 6-7 titles, while having comparable or better regular season statistics/MVP's. I think someone will match Jordan's scoring/MVP's, but his playoff record/performances is nearly impossible to match.

 

[fac3 tak30v312]

Originally Posted by Memp2Atl85

Might get flamed for this but no one will ever dominate like that again.... Too many superstars selfish scorers... As far as role players go the league may have fallin off since the eighties and nineties, but there are so many superstars role players pretending to be superstars in today's league... Almost every team has two or three players that can get you 20-25 a night

.... while their team is getting blown out
.
.
I would say Durant probably has the best chance of doing so ... when I look at the condition of the NBA when Jordan started winning championships it's a similar situation to what Durant would be facing when he comes into his prime .. Kobe, Duncan, The Celtics lineup are either going to be gone or on their last grasp along with Billups, Wade and most quasi stars in the league right now
His only true foes are going to be an aging Lebron, Carmelo and CP3 ... With Milsap and DW as the new Stockton/Malone [long stretch but that's what Utah is going for] as well as whatever John Wall and Dwight pan out into

So the stage is set for Durant .. to bad his shoes are so damn ugly

Edit
One thing people seem to forget with that second 3peat is that Ron Harper was a big time scorer before he went to the Bulls .. So to make it seem like it was Jordan, Pippen sometimes Kukoc and Rodman with a couple of bums winning all those championships is vastly not True

 

[jumpmanjordanaddict89]

win 6 + Finals, have a shoe line that changes the shoe game

and dont go to colorado if you know what i mean

 

[royster]

And 1 more thing you can give Jordan credit for, to add to the infinite list, is the HOF players he kept from ever getting championships of their own.
I mean individual and team this man did it all....

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

Xtapolapacetl:

---

Why are people just taking facts like "never losing in the finals" and making that as some magical criteria as to why a player is the GOAT?



Kareem, Magic, Bird & Shaq have all lost in the finals multiple times. Hakeem also lost in the finals. Tim Duncan on the other hand has been in 4 finals and hasn't lost a single time. But if you think that Duncan's greatness surpasses any of these 5 players, you're just flat out wrong.



Be honest, you're just taking this "never lost in the finals" out of convenience, because it's just a random fact about Jordan and you feel that it's convincing because it supports your agenda. It's certainly a nice accomplishment, and Jordan might be the GOAT, but he will never be the undisputed GOAT.

First off, the reason he'll never be the undisputed GOAT has nothing to do with his stats not being bloated enough. As long as people have opinions, Jordan will never be the undisputed GOAT.

Second, it's not just that he was 6-0 in the Finals; he was 6-0 AND the MVP every time. Duncan can't say that, and even his undefeated Finals count is at 4, not 6. Kareem, Magic, Bird, and Shaq weren't the MVPs of every Finals they won. Saying Jordan was the MVP of all 6 of his Finals without ever losing one, putting up the highest playoff PPG of all time... I mean, all of that together paints a different picture than 'just' saying 'Oh, 6-0 in the Finals. Whoop-dee-do.'



Again, just a another argument based on convenience.. Just review your argument and what you're saying. It's amazing to think that hypothetically, had Jordan made the NBA finals in 1990 and 1995, but ended up losing both finals (and obviously not winning the Finals MVP), this would've somehow REDUCED his status as the G.O.A.T. based on this lame convenient "never lost in the finals, won finals MVP all 6 times" argument. I mean, how silly is that? So in essence it's good that Jordan didn't advance as much in the playoffs in 1990 and 1995 just to support this lame argument.

Like I said, it's just an argument based on convenience. People who think Jordan is the GOAT basically just found a combo of accomplishments that only Jordan has and they roll with that. I can do that too. Like if I wanted to make a case for Magic Johnson, I could say something like the fact that in his NBA career that spanned 13 seasons, he only missed the NBA finals 4 times.. While in Jordan's 15 season career, he missed the finals 9 times.

Bill Russell is the G.O.A.T. if you want to go by winning.
Wilt Chamberlain is the G.O.A.T. if you want to go by stats. (Personally, I stay away from these two because when they played the game was way too different from modern basketball. And I never actually saw them play)

Kareem and Jordan have the the best argument for G.O.A.T. if you stack up their individual and team accomplishments, but Kareem's are the most impressive overall.

 

[703flipfiend]

Xtap, what you're seemingly failing to grasp is that it's a combination of stats and winning... not just one or the other. People are not leaning solely on the 6 for 6 stat. It goes beyond that.

 

[borobballman]

To be greater than Jordan youd have to be perfect, the man didnt have a scratch on his resume', everything from his clothing line to the way he handled himself on and off the court. The problem of being greater than jordan is your going to have to do everythinggggg. The guys got almost every individual award and team award. To be greater than him your going to have to come out with a shoe brand or line that ppl like even more than his which is very unlikely. Whats going to have to happen is for the Jordan clothing line to die off. Someone else who is a 6'5-6'9 freak who can score 40 a game and win about 7 championships and wins a national title in college as well will have to come up. he will have to play like jordan as well. clutch shots, dunk titles, dunk on ppl, etc...

 

[cjdynasty]

Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

Here's the resume that would need to be topped for me to personally call someone greater than Jordan:

- 6 Finals appearance, 6 Finals wins, 6 Finals MVPs
- Defensive Player of the Year
- 10 scoring titles
- 5 MVPs
- 2 gold medals
- average more points in the playoffs than the regular season

I'm not saying someone would need to best ALL of those things, getting 7 Finals MVPs in 7 Finals and never losing one, getting 2 DPOYs, 11 scoring titles, 6 MVPs, 3 gold medals, and doubling their playoff performance over the reg. season... but they would need to have a resume that is better than that body of work.

And that is one HELL of a resume... and there is still so much more I left out. Those are just the first things that came to mind real quick, so I guess I'm most impressed by all of those together. I mean, I think he was the All NBA 1st Teamer for his position and an All Star ever full season he played from '85 - '98. Rookie of the Year. So much, man.

/Thread.... This man is speaking the reals.  Youngsters, listen up.  To do HALF of this stuff on the list will make you a hall of famer.  GOAT

 

[iverson323]

They would need to change the game as far as the professional athlete goes. MJ changed the way all athletes were treated, perceived, endorsed, admired etc. He made his name and persona a multimillion dollar brand. He played with the passion, determination, will, and killer instinct that only a select few athletes have ever had. He refused to lose, Gave 110% in everything he ever did. Played, Coached, Taught, Learned all at the same time. Amazed crowds and drew attention from people who had never cared much for basketball, or sports for that matter. All while remaining untainted and classy. He overcame any obstacle ever thrown at him (even baseball he did better than anyone would have expected lol) He is the definition of the perfect athlete top to bottom. As great as his stats and accomplishments in the basketball world are, what he did for american sports and american athletes exceeds all of that. In order to be better than Jordan, someone must have that same affect on the sports world, pop culture and have better career statistics and accomplishments than him. Good luck to all future athletes...In other words...IT AIN'T HAPPENING!!

 

[big sippin spendin cheese]

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

Xtapolapacetl:

---

Why are people just taking facts like "never losing in the finals" and making that as some magical criteria as to why a player is the GOAT?



Kareem, Magic, Bird & Shaq have all lost in the finals multiple times. Hakeem also lost in the finals. Tim Duncan on the other hand has been in 4 finals and hasn't lost a single time. But if you think that Duncan's greatness surpasses any of these 5 players, you're just flat out wrong.



Be honest, you're just taking this "never lost in the finals" out of convenience, because it's just a random fact about Jordan and you feel that it's convincing because it supports your agenda. It's certainly a nice accomplishment, and Jordan might be the GOAT, but he will never be the undisputed GOAT.

First off, the reason he'll never be the undisputed GOAT has nothing to do with his stats not being bloated enough. As long as people have opinions, Jordan will never be the undisputed GOAT.

Second, it's not just that he was 6-0 in the Finals; he was 6-0 AND the MVP every time. Duncan can't say that, and even his undefeated Finals count is at 4, not 6. Kareem, Magic, Bird, and Shaq weren't the MVPs of every Finals they won. Saying Jordan was the MVP of all 6 of his Finals without ever losing one, putting up the highest playoff PPG of all time... I mean, all of that together paints a different picture than 'just' saying 'Oh, 6-0 in the Finals. Whoop-dee-do.'

Again, just a another argument based on convenience.. Just review your argument and what you're saying. It's amazing to think that hypothetically, had Jordan made the NBA finals in 1990 and 1995, but ended up losing both finals (and obviously not winning the Finals MVP), this would've somehow REDUCED his status as the G.O.A.T. based on this lame convenient "never lost in the finals, won finals MVP all 6 times" argument. I mean, how silly is that? So in essence it's good that Jordan didn't advance as much in the playoffs in 1990 and 1995 just to support this lame argument.

Like I said, it's just an argument based on convenience. People who think Jordan is the GOAT basically just found a combo of accomplishments that only Jordan has and they roll with that. I can do that too. Like if I wanted to make a case for Magic Johnson, I could say something like the fact that in his NBA career that spanned 13 seasons, he only missed the NBA finals 4 times.. While in Jordan's 15 season career, he missed the finals 9 times.

Bill Russell is the G.O.A.T. if you want to go by winning.
Wilt Chamberlain is the G.O.A.T. if you want to go by stats. (Personally, I stay away from these two because when they played the game was way too different from modern basketball. And I never actually saw them play)

Kareem and Jordan have the the best argument for G.O.A.T. if you stack up their individual and team accomplishments, but Kareem's are the most impressive overall.

my dude you've got a lot of knowledge but no wisdom.

its the combination of all his stuff





who else is gonna be the best player in the league at ages 32,33,34?

look at all the players he was better than and he was old, shoulda been washed up but wasnt

shaq,malone,olajuwon,ewing,david robinson,grant hill,penny,payton,kemp,kidd etc.





like i said somebody bring up his all time steals

he's real high on the list like 2nd or 3rd

if he wouldnt have missed almost his whole second season and those 2 when he retired he would probably have the all time steals record and points scored.




the streak of scoring 25 or more in 40 games in a row


and he's got the longest streak ever for scoring in double digits.

he only scored in single digits the year he broke his foot (in limited minutes) and when he was old on the wizards




10 scoring titles

even wilt cant top that



averaged 42 points a game in the nba finals in a 6 game series

that means that every game of that series he scored 40, in the FINALS

who else does this?




most importantly what player is gonna win the scoring title and the championship in the same year, 6 times!




here's another stat more than 30 of his 50 point games came against teams with winning records







btw yea bird was better than kareem  

idc if you laker stans disagree

 

[truballa101]

you guys are bringing up Bird and Magic but woww...the Lakers had stacked teams throughout certain years which caused the opponent to maybe not focus on Magic as much as you would Jordan.. it was basically pick your poison with that team..


*Magic had James Worthy, Kareem, Bob McAdoo, and lets not forget Byron Scott who was a solid player.

I would only question Bird because he wasn't as effective one-on-one like Jordan was. And the only plus Bird had over Jordan was the clutch shooting

Jordan GOAT. I think that resume he has is flawless...oh, and he was a Dunk Contest champion -.-

 

[japanair21]

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

Xtapolapacetl:

---

Why are people just taking facts like "never losing in the finals" and making that as some magical criteria as to why a player is the GOAT?



Kareem, Magic, Bird & Shaq have all lost in the finals multiple times. Hakeem also lost in the finals. Tim Duncan on the other hand has been in 4 finals and hasn't lost a single time. But if you think that Duncan's greatness surpasses any of these 5 players, you're just flat out wrong.



Be honest, you're just taking this "never lost in the finals" out of convenience, because it's just a random fact about Jordan and you feel that it's convincing because it supports your agenda. It's certainly a nice accomplishment, and Jordan might be the GOAT, but he will never be the undisputed GOAT.

First off, the reason he'll never be the undisputed GOAT has nothing to do with his stats not being bloated enough. As long as people have opinions, Jordan will never be the undisputed GOAT.

Second, it's not just that he was 6-0 in the Finals; he was 6-0 AND the MVP every time. Duncan can't say that, and even his undefeated Finals count is at 4, not 6. Kareem, Magic, Bird, and Shaq weren't the MVPs of every Finals they won. Saying Jordan was the MVP of all 6 of his Finals without ever losing one, putting up the highest playoff PPG of all time... I mean, all of that together paints a different picture than 'just' saying 'Oh, 6-0 in the Finals. Whoop-dee-do.'

Again, just a another argument based on convenience.. Just review your argument and what you're saying. It's amazing to think that hypothetically, had Jordan made the NBA finals in 1990 and 1995, but ended up losing both finals (and obviously not winning the Finals MVP), this would've somehow REDUCED his status as the G.O.A.T. based on this lame convenient "never lost in the finals, won finals MVP all 6 times" argument. I mean, how silly is that? So in essence it's good that Jordan didn't advance as much in the playoffs in 1990 and 1995 just to support this lame argument.

Like I said, it's just an argument based on convenience. People who think Jordan is the GOAT basically just found a combo of accomplishments that only Jordan has and they roll with that. I can do that too. Like if I wanted to make a case for Magic Johnson, I could say something like the fact that in his NBA career that spanned 13 seasons, he only missed the NBA finals 4 times.. While in Jordan's 15 season career, he missed the finals 9 times.

Bill Russell is the G.O.A.T. if you want to go by winning.
Wilt Chamberlain is the G.O.A.T. if you want to go by stats. (Personally, I stay away from these two because when they played the game was way too different from modern basketball. And I never actually saw them play)

Kareem and Jordan have the the best argument for G.O.A.T. if you stack up their individual and team accomplishments, but Kareem's are the most impressive overall.
This is why I love you as an NBA head.

I agree with you on so much.

I have always been very peeved that people DON'T consider Kareem as one of the best of all-time. The all-time leading scorer, third all-time in rebounds and blocks, and a resume to outdue all but one player ever.

And lets be real...


How many finals appearances did Kareem have? 10
How many finals appearnaces did Jordan have? 6

So wait.. If Jordan only made it to the Finals six times, what about the rest of the years he was playing? He definitely didn't only play six seasons.. Can be naive, but I'd say reaching the Finals TEN times and losing 4 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only reaching the Finals 6 times, even though you won all of them. Jordan STILL lost in the Playoffs. I don't know about yall, but Conference Championships are very important.

How many DYNASTIES did Jordan have to beat to win in the Finals? Yeah sure, Jordan beat the Lakers once..

But Portland? Phoenix? Utah twice? Seattle?

Kareem beat the Dr. J Sixers twice, Detroit when they were probably at their BEST, and the insanely powerful Boston Celtics twice.

No offense to MJ, he had his fair share of battles, but 10 Finals appearances > 6 Finals appearances if you have the same number of titles, because that just means you failed to reach the Finals...


As far as GOAT goes?

I have to say 1a, 1b.

You have the best guard, and you have the best Center.

 

[aztec06jr]

Couple notes:

LeBron and Kobe lost in the finals but LeBron lost to a dynasty team featuring the best PF of all time and Kobe lost to 1 of the best 'teams' in Detroit and a team featuring 3 HOFers in KG, Pierce, and Allen...

There is a lot more scrutiny in today's world...With the internet, forums, Twitter, etc. it's damn near impossible to get away with ANYTHING in this league...Imagine MJ in today's league with his Twitter/ESPN breaking updates on his adultery, gambling, his father passing away on the side of a road mysteriously, etc...come on, you think things would be the same?

It's easy to be nit-picky and pick stats that only fit your favorite player...for example Kobe fans can say he won rings in 2 diff eras (2001 and 2009) with 2 different supporting casts, something MJ never did...Kobe dropped 81 and outscored the Mavs after 3 quarters, something MJ or Kareem never did...

If you're the best to ever do it, how can you leave your team and they go ahead and make the ECF the very next year? I think people underestimate the talent that MJ played with, Scottie Pippen is a top 50 player OF ALL TIME....One of the best defenders ever, Rodman arguably the greatest rebounder ever, etc..

Interesting discussion though - I like how Kareem's resume is being brought into play and someone mentioned that MJ's endorsements, etc shouldn't be included...I mean it's amazing that people are bringing up his shoe deals, come on...We're talking basketball

 

[kb8 3qwick]

That Bulls team without MJ would've made it to the Finals if it wasn't for the phantom foul that they called on Pippen.