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Truth but Bulls with Jordan would it even came down to 1 bad call
What would a player have to do to be considered greater than Jordan?
- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by poeticjays,
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They had no chips in either of those years so the argument falls down there to me.
He comes back and they win 72 games. Oh yeah, and another 3 championships with him at the forefront.
Kareem's 10 finals appearances may sound impressive but 4 being losses and only 2 with him being the finals mvp makes it stand out less against Jordans 6 out of 6 IMO.
Also Jordan had the power to keep Isiah Thomas off the Dream Team.
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Let's end this discussion:
There will NEVER be another Jordan. It cannot be done again.
He was something the sports world has NEVER seen...Anybody else who comes next will always fall short of what he accomplished on & off the court.
There will NEVER be another Jordan. It cannot be done again.
He was something the sports world has NEVER seen...Anybody else who comes next will always fall short of what he accomplished on & off the court.
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The nativity in this thread?! It's over nine-thousaaaaand!
xtapolapacetl
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First off, the reason he'll never be the undisputed GOAT has nothing to do with his stats not being bloated enough. As long as people have opinions, Jordan will never be the undisputed GOAT.
Second, it's not just that he was 6-0 in the Finals; he was 6-0 AND the MVP every time. Duncan can't say that, and even his undefeated Finals count is at 4, not 6. Kareem, Magic, Bird, and Shaq weren't the MVPs of every Finals they won. Saying Jordan was the MVP of all 6 of his Finals without ever losing one, putting up the highest playoff PPG of all time... I mean, all of that together paints a different picture than 'just' saying 'Oh, 6-0 in the Finals. Whoop-dee-do.'
Again, just a another argument based on convenience.. Just review your argument and what you're saying. It's amazing to think that hypothetically, had Jordan made the NBA finals in 1990 and 1995, but ended up losing both finals (and obviously not winning the Finals MVP), this would've somehow REDUCED his status as the G.O.A.T. based on this lame convenient "never lost in the finals, won finals MVP all 6 times" argument. I mean, how silly is that? So in essence it's good that Jordan didn't advance as much in the playoffs in 1990 and 1995 just to support this lame argument.
Like I said, it's just an argument based on convenience. People who think Jordan is the GOAT basically just found a combo of accomplishments that only Jordan has and they roll with that. I can do that too. Like if I wanted to make a case for Magic Johnson, I could say something like the fact that in his NBA career that spanned 13 seasons, he only missed the NBA finals 4 times.. While in Jordan's 15 season career, he missed the finals 9 times.
Bill Russell is the G.O.A.T. if you want to go by winning.
Wilt Chamberlain is the G.O.A.T. if you want to go by stats. (Personally, I stay away from these two because when they played the game was way too different from modern basketball. And I never actually saw them play)
Kareem and Jordan have the the best argument for G.O.A.T. if you stack up their individual and team accomplishments, but Kareem's are the most impressive overall.
my dude you've got a lot of knowledge but no wisdom.
its the combination of all his stuff
who else is gonna be the best player in the league at ages 32,33,34?
look at all the players he was better than and he was old, shoulda been washed up but wasnt
shaq,malone,olajuwon,ewing,david robinson,grant hill,penny,payton,kemp,kidd etc.
like i said somebody bring up his all time steals
he's real high on the list like 2nd or 3rd
if he wouldnt have missed almost his whole second season and those 2 when he retired he would probably have the all time steals record and points scored.
the streak of scoring 25 or more in 40 games in a row
and he's got the longest streak ever for scoring in double digits.
he only scored in single digits the year he broke his foot (in limited minutes) and when he was old on the wizards
10 scoring titles
even wilt cant top that
averaged 42 points a game in the nba finals in a 6 game series
that means that every game of that series he scored 40, in the FINALS
who else does this?
most importantly what player is gonna win the scoring title and the championship in the same year, 6 times!
here's another stat more than 30 of his 50 point games came against teams with winning records
btw yea bird was better than kareem
idc if you laker stans disagree
First you start talking about the "combination of all his stuff", but then you say that Bird is better than Kareem?
My point was that Kareem has the best combination of all his stuff, even better than Jordan... And if you want to judge the G.O.A.T. by the combination of his accomplishments, then Kareem is the G.O.A.T.
You want to talk about being good while old? Is being the Finals MVP at the age of 38 like Kareem was in the 1985 NBA finals good enough for you? Is making the all-NBA 1st team at the age of 38 like Kareem did in 85-86 good enough for you? Jordan didn't even make the all-NBA 3rd team with the Wizards. There was a 14-year span between Kareem's Finals MVPs. A 15-year span between his first and last all-NBA 1st team selection. A 19-year span between his first and last all-star selection. Who else does THAT?
Scoring titles? It will be a cold day in hell before I lower myself to a level where scoring titles determine the GOAT knowing that Allen Iverson has 4, Tracy McGracy has 2, Adrian Dantley has 2 while Larry Bird, Hakeem Olajuwon and Tim Duncan have 0 scoring titles combined.
The weird thing is that I still think Jordan is the GOAT, but my point of all this is that there really is no formula for the GOAT. IF you choose the path of simply piling up career accomplishments, then Kareem is the GOAT.
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This is where your argument should've started and endedOriginally Posted by Xtapolapacetl
First you start talking about the "combination of all his stuff", but then you say that Bird is better than Kareem?
My point was that Kareem has the best combination of all his stuff, even better than Jordan... And if you want to judge the G.O.A.T. by the combination of his accomplishments, then Kareem is the G.O.A.T.
You want to talk about being good while old? Is being the Finals MVP at the age of 38 like Kareem was in the 1985 NBA finals good enough for you? Is making the all-NBA 1st team at the age of 38 like Kareem did in 85-86 good enough for you? Jordan didn't even make the all-NBA 3rd team with the Wizards. There was a 14-year span between Kareem's Finals MVPs. A 15-year span between his first and last all-NBA 1st team selection. A 19-year span between his first and last all-star selection. Who else does THAT?
Scoring titles? It will be a cold day in hell before I lower myself to a level where scoring titles determine the GOAT knowing that Allen Iverson has 4, Tracy McGracy has 2, Adrian Dantley has 2 while Larry Bird, Hakeem Olajuwon and Tim Duncan have 0 scoring titles combined.
The weird thing is that I still think Jordan is the GOAT, but my point of all this is that there really is no formula for the GOAT. IF you choose the path of simply piling up career accomplishments, then Kareem is the GOAT.
xtapolapacetl
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Originally Posted by nycknicks105
This is where your argument should've started and endedOriginally Posted by Xtapolapacetl
First you start talking about the "combination of all his stuff", but then you say that Bird is better than Kareem?
My point was that Kareem has the best combination of all his stuff, even better than Jordan... And if you want to judge the G.O.A.T. by the combination of his accomplishments, then Kareem is the G.O.A.T.
You want to talk about being good while old? Is being the Finals MVP at the age of 38 like Kareem was in the 1985 NBA finals good enough for you? Is making the all-NBA 1st team at the age of 38 like Kareem did in 85-86 good enough for you? Jordan didn't even make the all-NBA 3rd team with the Wizards. There was a 14-year span between Kareem's Finals MVPs. A 15-year span between his first and last all-NBA 1st team selection. A 19-year span between his first and last all-star selection. Who else does THAT?
Scoring titles? It will be a cold day in hell before I lower myself to a level where scoring titles determine the GOAT knowing that Allen Iverson has 4, Tracy McGracy has 2, Adrian Dantley has 2 while Larry Bird, Hakeem Olajuwon and Tim Duncan have 0 scoring titles combined.
The weird thing is that I still think Jordan is the GOAT, but my point of all this is that there really is no formula for the GOAT. IF you choose the path of simply piling up career accomplishments, then Kareem is the GOAT.
Well, that's what I've been trying to say all along. But the thing is, people just start piling up Jordan's accomplishments and say that's why he's the GOAT. Well, they're wrong. Kareem is the GOAT if you want to take that path.
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This thread is exposing a couple of people.
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Kareem:
Jordan:
Kinda not seeing where Kareem's resume stacks higher than Mikes tbh.
- http://bits.wikimedia.org....5/monobook/bullet.gif); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; ">
- 6× NBA Champion (1971, 1980, 1982, 1985,1987, 1988)
- 1× NBA Champion (2009) as an Assistant Coach.
- 6× NBA MVP (1971-1972, 1974, 1976-1977, 1980)
- 19× NBA All-Star (1970, 1971, 1972, 1973,1974, 1975, 1976, 1977, 1979, 1980, 1981,1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988,1989)
- 2× NBA Finals MVP (1971, 1985)
- 10× All-NBA First Team Selection (1971-1973, 1974, 1976-1977, 1980-1981, 1984, 1986)
- 5× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1970, 1978-1979, 1983, 1985)
- 5× NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1974-1975, 1979-1981)
- 6× NBA All-Defensive Second TeamSelection (1970-1971, 1976-1978, 1984)
- 1970 NBA Rookie of the Year
- 1970 NBA All-Rookie Team
- NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
- 3× NCAA Men's Basketball Champion (1967), (1968), (1969)
- 3× NCAA Basketball Tournament MOP(1967), (1968), (1969)
- 1× Naismith College Player of the Year(1969)
- 2× USBWA College Player of the Year(1967-196
Jordan:
- http://bits.wikimedia.org....5/monobook/bullet.gif); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; ">
- 6× NBA Champion (1991, 1992, 1993, 1996,1997, 1998)
- 5× NBA MVP (1988, 1991, 1992, 1996, 1998)
- 14× NBA All-Star (1985–1993, 1996–1998, 2002–2003)
- 6× NBA Finals MVP (1991–1993, 1996–199
- 1× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (198
- 10× All-NBA First Team Selection (1987–1993, 1996–199
- 1× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1985)
- 9× NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1988–1993, 1996–199
- 1985 NBA Rookie of the Year
- 1985 NBA All-Rookie Team
- 3× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1988, 1996, 199
- 2× NBA Slam Dunk Contest winner (1987, 198
- 2× Gold Medal Winner in the Olympics (1984, 1992)
- NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
- 1× NCAA Men's Basketball Champion (1982)
- 2× Consensus NCAA All-American First Team (1983, 1984)
- 1982 ACC Freshman of the Year
- 1× ACC Men's Basketball Player of the Year(1984)
- 1× USBWA College Player of the Year(1984)
- 1× Naismith College Player of the Year(1984)
- 1× John R. Wooden Award (1984)
- 1× Adolph Rupp Trophy (1984)
- 1991 Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year
- 2000 ESPY Athlete of the Century
- 1990s ESPY Male Athlete Decade Award
- 1990s ESPY Pro Basketballer Decade Award
Kinda not seeing where Kareem's resume stacks higher than Mikes tbh.
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what thread doesn't?
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i dont agree with you on everything but this is point im getting at...the argument some of these kids use to claim mj as the GOAT is downright comical..."oh he has air jordans", "hes undefeated in finals"
i think every era has his their greatest player
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Half of Jordans awards are either Kareem was not eligble for, or came into existence after Kareem stopped playing or are completely and UTTERLY irrelevant.Originally Posted by PH3N0M3N0N
- http://bits.wikimedia.org....5/monobook/bullet.gif); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; ">
- 6× NBA Champion (1991, 1992, 1993, 1996,1997, 1998)
- 5× NBA MVP (1988, 1991, 1992, 1996, 1998)
- 14× NBA All-Star (1985–1993, 1996–1998, 2002–2003)
- 6× NBA Finals MVP (1991–1993, 1996–199
- 1× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (198
- 10× All-NBA First Team Selection (1987–1993, 1996–199
- 1× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1985)
- 9× NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1988–1993, 1996–199
- 1985 NBA Rookie of the Year
- 1985 NBA All-Rookie Team
- 3× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1988, 1996, 199
- 2× NBA Slam Dunk Contest winner (1987, 198
- 2× Gold Medal Winner in the Olympics (1984, 1992)
- NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
- 1× NCAA Men's Basketball Champion (1982)
- 2× Consensus NCAA All-American First Team (1983, 1984)
- 1982 ACC Freshman of the Year
- 1× ACC Men's Basketball Player of the Year(1984)
- 1× USBWA College Player of the Year(1984)
- 1× Naismith College Player of the Year(1984)
- 1× John R. Wooden Award (1984)
- 1× Adolph Rupp Trophy (1984)
- 1991 Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year
- 2000 ESPY Athlete of the Century
- 1990s ESPY Male Athlete Decade Award
- 1990s ESPY Pro Basketballer Decade Award
Kinda not seeing where Kareem's resume stacks higher than Mikes tbh.
I mean an ESPY? Seriously?
Slam Dunk tittle?
xtapolapacetl
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Originally Posted by PH3N0M3N0N
Kinda not seeing where Kareem's resume stacks higher than Mikes tbh.
If you don't see it, then it's your problem. But it's a fact that if you stack up Kareem's career accomplishments, the pile will be taller than MJ's.
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I take those out and Kareem's is still not better.Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh
Half of Jordans awards are either Kareem was not eligble for, or came into existence after Kareem stopped playing or are completely and UTTERLY irrelevant.Originally Posted by PH3N0M3N0N
- http://bits.wikimedia.org....5/monobook/bullet.gif); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px; ">
- 6× NBA Champion (1991, 1992, 1993, 1996,1997, 1998)
- 5× NBA MVP (1988, 1991, 1992, 1996, 1998)
- 14× NBA All-Star (1985–1993, 1996–1998, 2002–2003)
- 6× NBA Finals MVP (1991–1993, 1996–199
- 1× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (198
- 10× All-NBA First Team Selection (1987–1993, 1996–199
- 1× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1985)
- 9× NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1988–1993, 1996–199
- 1985 NBA Rookie of the Year
- 1985 NBA All-Rookie Team
- 3× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1988, 1996, 199
- 2× Gold Medal Winner in the Olympics (1984, 1992)
- NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
- 1× NCAA Men's Basketball Champion (1982)
- 2× Consensus NCAA All-American First Team (1983, 1984)
- 1982 ACC Freshman of the Year
- 1× ACC Men's Basketball Player of the Year(1984)
- 1× USBWA College Player of the Year(1984)
- 1× Naismith College Player of the Year(1984)
- 1× John R. Wooden Award (1984)
- 1× Adolph Rupp Trophy (1984)
Kinda not seeing where Kareem's resume stacks higher than Mikes tbh.
I mean an ESPY? Seriously?
Slam Dunk tittle?Cmon man...
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This is why Jordan is the G.O.A.T.!! Some of you dudes need to educate yourselves immediately.
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sounds something from ESPN
gave a 110% in everything he did? youre reaching
what about the ones that came before jordan? the ones who put the NBA on the map?
see these are the type of arguments some of you guys use to claim mj to be the GOAT...some of them could be opinions and not facts
but like i said every era has their best player...if you asked my grandpop hed tell you mikan was the greatest, my dad would tell you either bill, wilt or jerry west...id prob tell you a toss up between mj, kareem, magic and bird...most of the kids nowadays will say kobe, shaq, Lebron or duncan...the fact is every generation has their GOAT...it really comes down to who you grew up watching and saw dominate the league
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That's not a fact, that's your opinion on the subject. Every generation may have a player that was the greatest during the era they witnessed, but when a player is given the title G.O.A.T, it covers all generations played. I know quite a few people who it absolutely eats them up inside that Jordan is considered the G.O.A.T. and they use the same reasoning as you. They just coincidentally happen to be fans of the same basketball team as you too.
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what makes it great is kobe and lebron already lossed championships
so there is a stigma to their name
Don't get me wrong, Kobe is so skillful, and Lebron scares me with the type of endless potential he has...
Not scared of KD or Melo, as they have no D...but all those players i mentioned get uber kudos lol
so there is a stigma to their name
Don't get me wrong, Kobe is so skillful, and Lebron scares me with the type of endless potential he has...
Not scared of KD or Melo, as they have no D...but all those players i mentioned get uber kudos lol
This is why I love you as an NBA head.Originally Posted by JapanAir21
Again, just a another argument based on convenience.. Just review your argument and what you're saying. It's amazing to think that hypothetically, had Jordan made the NBA finals in 1990 and 1995, but ended up losing both finals (and obviously not winning the Finals MVP), this would've somehow REDUCED his status as the G.O.A.T. based on this lame convenient "never lost in the finals, won finals MVP all 6 times" argument. I mean, how silly is that? So in essence it's good that Jordan didn't advance as much in the playoffs in 1990 and 1995 just to support this lame argument.
Like I said, it's just an argument based on convenience. People who think Jordan is the GOAT basically just found a combo of accomplishments that only Jordan has and they roll with that. I can do that too. Like if I wanted to make a case for Magic Johnson, I could say something like the fact that in his NBA career that spanned 13 seasons, he only missed the NBA finals 4 times.. While in Jordan's 15 season career, he missed the finals 9 times.
Bill Russell is the G.O.A.T. if you want to go by winning.
Wilt Chamberlain is the G.O.A.T. if you want to go by stats. (Personally, I stay away from these two because when they played the game was way too different from modern basketball. And I never actually saw them play)
Kareem and Jordan have the the best argument for G.O.A.T. if you stack up their individual and team accomplishments, but Kareem's are the most impressive overall.
I agree with you on so much.
I have always been very peeved that people DON'T consider Kareem as one of the best of all-time. The all-time leading scorer, third all-time in rebounds and blocks, and a resume to outdue all but one player ever.
And lets be real...
How many finals appearances did Kareem have? 10
How many finals appearnaces did Jordan have? 6
So wait.. If Jordan only made it to the Finals six times, what about the rest of the years he was playing? He definitely didn't only play six seasons.. Can be naive, but I'd say reaching the Finals TEN times and losing 4 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only reaching the Finals 6 times, even though you won all of them. Jordan STILL lost in the Playoffs. I don't know about yall, but Conference Championships are very important.
How many DYNASTIES did Jordan have to beat to win in the Finals? Yeah sure, Jordan beat the Lakers once..
But Portland? Phoenix? Utah twice? Seattle?
Kareem beat the Dr. J Sixers twice, Detroit when they were probably at their BEST, and the insanely powerful Boston Celtics twice.
No offense to MJ, he had his fair share of battles, but 10 Finals appearances > 6 Finals appearances if you have the same number of titles, because that just means you failed to reach the Finals...
As far as GOAT goes?
I have to say 1a, 1b.
You have the best guard, and you have the best Center.
I stayed outta this thread for the most part, but I came in here to say the same thing about this 6-6 crap. Why are those 6 years so great, but then we just discard all the years that MJ couldn't get to the finals?
And yes, Kareem went up against mammoth squads in the 80's, whereas anyone who looks at the 90's could argue that the Bulls were the ONLY dominant team in that decade. Everyone else was just short.
The Knicks were probably the 2nd best team in the decade (though I could hear arguments for the Rockets) But even the Rockets window only lasted 2 seasons. The Knicks at least were always on the cusp, they just couldn't get past MJ. (which he does deserve credit for)
Magic Made the Finals NINE times in 12 years.
MJ, Kareem, Magic, Russell, Wilt, they all have arguments. MJ earned his lore, but he was also aided by the media in terms of his marketing, and timing and the dunk contests and all that, none of which is a true indicator of basketball supremacy. I mean Christ, people are completely overlooking Kareem winning those 3 straight titles in college on top of the 6 he won in the NBA. In essense, that's 10 trips to the finals, and 3 trips in college. 22 years of pro ball, his team was one of the top 2 13 times. And won 9 of those.
Just a couple thoughts to think on. Pretty good thread imo.
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Originally Posted by CP1708
This is why I love you as an NBA head.Originally Posted by JapanAir21
Again, just a another argument based on convenience.. Just review your argument and what you're saying. It's amazing to think that hypothetically, had Jordan made the NBA finals in 1990 and 1995, but ended up losing both finals (and obviously not winning the Finals MVP), this would've somehow REDUCED his status as the G.O.A.T. based on this lame convenient "never lost in the finals, won finals MVP all 6 times" argument. I mean, how silly is that? So in essence it's good that Jordan didn't advance as much in the playoffs in 1990 and 1995 just to support this lame argument.
Like I said, it's just an argument based on convenience. People who think Jordan is the GOAT basically just found a combo of accomplishments that only Jordan has and they roll with that. I can do that too. Like if I wanted to make a case for Magic Johnson, I could say something like the fact that in his NBA career that spanned 13 seasons, he only missed the NBA finals 4 times.. While in Jordan's 15 season career, he missed the finals 9 times.
Bill Russell is the G.O.A.T. if you want to go by winning.
Wilt Chamberlain is the G.O.A.T. if you want to go by stats. (Personally, I stay away from these two because when they played the game was way too different from modern basketball. And I never actually saw them play)
Kareem and Jordan have the the best argument for G.O.A.T. if you stack up their individual and team accomplishments, but Kareem's are the most impressive overall.
I agree with you on so much.
I have always been very peeved that people DON'T consider Kareem as one of the best of all-time. The all-time leading scorer, third all-time in rebounds and blocks, and a resume to outdue all but one player ever.
And lets be real...
How many finals appearances did Kareem have? 10
How many finals appearnaces did Jordan have? 6
So wait.. If Jordan only made it to the Finals six times, what about the rest of the years he was playing? He definitely didn't only play six seasons.. Can be naive, but I'd say reaching the Finals TEN times and losing 4 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only reaching the Finals 6 times, even though you won all of them. Jordan STILL lost in the Playoffs. I don't know about yall, but Conference Championships are very important.
How many DYNASTIES did Jordan have to beat to win in the Finals? Yeah sure, Jordan beat the Lakers once..
But Portland? Phoenix? Utah twice? Seattle?
Kareem beat the Dr. J Sixers twice, Detroit when they were probably at their BEST, and the insanely powerful Boston Celtics twice.
No offense to MJ, he had his fair share of battles, but 10 Finals appearances > 6 Finals appearances if you have the same number of titles, because that just means you failed to reach the Finals...
As far as GOAT goes?
I have to say 1a, 1b.
You have the best guard, and you have the best Center.
I stayed outta this thread for the most part, but I came in here to say the same thing about this 6-6 crap. Why are those 6 years so great, but then we just discard all the years that MJ couldn't get to the finals?
And yes, Kareem went up against mammoth squads in the 80's, whereas anyone who looks at the 90's could argue that the Bulls were the ONLY dominant team in that decade. Everyone else was just short.
The Knicks were probably the 2nd best team in the decade (though I could hear arguments for the Rockets) But even the Rockets window only lasted 2 seasons. The Knicks at least were always on the cusp, they just couldn't get past MJ. (which he does deserve credit for)
Magic Made the Finals NINE times in 12 years.
MJ, Kareem, Magic, Russell, Wilt, they all have arguments. MJ earned his lore, but he was also aided by the media in terms of his marketing, and timing and the dunk contests and all that, none of which is a true indicator of basketball supremacy. I mean Christ, people are completely overlooking Kareem winning those 3 straight titles in college on top of the 6 he won in the NBA. In essense, that's 10 trips to the finals, and 3 trips in college. 22 years of pro ball, his team was one of the top 2 13 times. And won 9 of those.
Just a couple thoughts to think on. Pretty good thread imo.
Magic played with considerable more talent than Magic though. If Jordan hadn't retired, dude would have had 8 straight championships, something completely unparalleled. Plus those two MVP's give to Malone were his, they were just tired of giving them to Michael. Michael is the GOAT, and anyone who doesn't want to see it that way is kidding themselves.
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i think i mentioned above that if you asked me who i thought was the greatest was i did mention mike as one of them didnt i? but hey what do we know i root for the Lakers
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I think style of play should be mentioned in here because when MJ first hit the league, the league never saw an athlete with the kind of athletic skills, basketball prowess, sheer will and determination, and creativity to get a shot off...
Fans were dazzled by MJ during his play. If you took a fundamentally sound player, similar to Tim Duncan, and allowed him to control the offense and the flow of the game with better numbers...I'm not so sure that guy automatically eclipses MJ for the player he was on the court.
Fans were dazzled by MJ during his play. If you took a fundamentally sound player, similar to Tim Duncan, and allowed him to control the offense and the flow of the game with better numbers...I'm not so sure that guy automatically eclipses MJ for the player he was on the court.
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First off, the reason he'll never be the undisputed GOAT has nothing to do with his stats not being bloated enough. As long as people have opinions, Jordan will never be the undisputed GOAT.
Second, it's not just that he was 6-0 in the Finals; he was 6-0 AND the MVP every time. Duncan can't say that, and even his undefeated Finals count is at 4, not 6. Kareem, Magic, Bird, and Shaq weren't the MVPs of every Finals they won. Saying Jordan was the MVP of all 6 of his Finals without ever losing one, putting up the highest playoff PPG of all time... I mean, all of that together paints a different picture than 'just' saying 'Oh, 6-0 in the Finals. Whoop-dee-do.'
Winning MVP every time in the finals isn't that crazy when you are the BEST player on the team. Who was gone win it? Kukoc?
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What would you say about Julius? The same could be said about him.
Originally Posted by airmaxpenny1
Originally Posted by CP1708
This is why I love you as an NBA head.Originally Posted by JapanAir21
Again, just a another argument based on convenience.. Just review your argument and what you're saying. It's amazing to think that hypothetically, had Jordan made the NBA finals in 1990 and 1995, but ended up losing both finals (and obviously not winning the Finals MVP), this would've somehow REDUCED his status as the G.O.A.T. based on this lame convenient "never lost in the finals, won finals MVP all 6 times" argument. I mean, how silly is that? So in essence it's good that Jordan didn't advance as much in the playoffs in 1990 and 1995 just to support this lame argument.
Like I said, it's just an argument based on convenience. People who think Jordan is the GOAT basically just found a combo of accomplishments that only Jordan has and they roll with that. I can do that too. Like if I wanted to make a case for Magic Johnson, I could say something like the fact that in his NBA career that spanned 13 seasons, he only missed the NBA finals 4 times.. While in Jordan's 15 season career, he missed the finals 9 times.
Bill Russell is the G.O.A.T. if you want to go by winning.
Wilt Chamberlain is the G.O.A.T. if you want to go by stats. (Personally, I stay away from these two because when they played the game was way too different from modern basketball. And I never actually saw them play)
Kareem and Jordan have the the best argument for G.O.A.T. if you stack up their individual and team accomplishments, but Kareem's are the most impressive overall.
I agree with you on so much.
I have always been very peeved that people DON'T consider Kareem as one of the best of all-time. The all-time leading scorer, third all-time in rebounds and blocks, and a resume to outdue all but one player ever.
And lets be real...
How many finals appearances did Kareem have? 10
How many finals appearnaces did Jordan have? 6
So wait.. If Jordan only made it to the Finals six times, what about the rest of the years he was playing? He definitely didn't only play six seasons.. Can be naive, but I'd say reaching the Finals TEN times and losing 4 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only reaching the Finals 6 times, even though you won all of them. Jordan STILL lost in the Playoffs. I don't know about yall, but Conference Championships are very important.
How many DYNASTIES did Jordan have to beat to win in the Finals? Yeah sure, Jordan beat the Lakers once..
But Portland? Phoenix? Utah twice? Seattle?
Kareem beat the Dr. J Sixers twice, Detroit when they were probably at their BEST, and the insanely powerful Boston Celtics twice.
No offense to MJ, he had his fair share of battles, but 10 Finals appearances > 6 Finals appearances if you have the same number of titles, because that just means you failed to reach the Finals...
As far as GOAT goes?
I have to say 1a, 1b.
You have the best guard, and you have the best Center.
I stayed outta this thread for the most part, but I came in here to say the same thing about this 6-6 crap. Why are those 6 years so great, but then we just discard all the years that MJ couldn't get to the finals?
And yes, Kareem went up against mammoth squads in the 80's, whereas anyone who looks at the 90's could argue that the Bulls were the ONLY dominant team in that decade. Everyone else was just short.
The Knicks were probably the 2nd best team in the decade (though I could hear arguments for the Rockets) But even the Rockets window only lasted 2 seasons. The Knicks at least were always on the cusp, they just couldn't get past MJ. (which he does deserve credit for)
Magic Made the Finals NINE times in 12 years.Just plain filthy. And he retired at 31. Had he kept playing, i honestly believe that he and the Lakers would have found a way to return and eventually dethrone MJ at some point. In fact the year he retired, the Lakers had added Sedale Threatt to the roster, to help them beat the Bulls. (Phil's brilliance was putting Pip on MJ and causing a ton of damage to the Lakers offense without any other ball handlers) Threatt would have alleviated this. All Threatt did the next two years without Magic was lead the team in scoring and assists. So he would have obviously really helped in that department. Plus, the Lakers were always known back then for adding a piece here and there to improve their team, they could have found other players to come help Magic out.
MJ, Kareem, Magic, Russell, Wilt, they all have arguments. MJ earned his lore, but he was also aided by the media in terms of his marketing, and timing and the dunk contests and all that, none of which is a true indicator of basketball supremacy. I mean Christ, people are completely overlooking Kareem winning those 3 straight titles in college on top of the 6 he won in the NBA. In essense, that's 10 trips to the finals, and 3 trips in college. 22 years of pro ball, his team was one of the top 2 13 times. And won 9 of those.
Just a couple thoughts to think on. Pretty good thread imo.
Magic played with considerable more talent than Magic though. If Jordan hadn't retired, dude would have had 8 straight championships, something completely unparalleled. Plus those two MVP's give to Malone were his, they were just tired of giving them to Michael. Michael is the GOAT, and anyone who doesn't want to see it that way is kidding themselves.
WRONG.
Flat out, inaccurate.
MJ and crew have ZERO shot to go 8 straight DEEP postseason runs. It can and never will happen. They needed that break in between.
Now MJ could have gotten to 4 straight, sure. Maybe gotten to 5. But you honestly think at 36 while adding an ADDITIONAL 200+ GAMES that he could have maitnained where he was? Scottie would have held up with an extra 25 or so playoff games? Come on now. Be realistic.
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