What would YOU do if your Talent was controlled by others? Design Appreciation or Not.

[rockdeep]

I almost gave up on posting Topics in the Jordan Brand Forum too much anymore. The Audience seems to be getting younger and the Topics overly mind bogglingand repetitive, but after seeing reaction to the latest Jordan 2009 Topic.

It got me to wondering although it was Rhetorical wonderment.

What if you had your Best Talent in life controlled by someone else? If you were a Dentist? A LAWYER perhaps (shout out to HKid) or Agricultural Landscaper(Grass Mower)? What if what you did for a living and happened to be REALLY good at doing was controlled by someone who wasn't good at it.

Lets say you are a Chef. You are hired because the food you prepared previously was some of the best tasting food ever prepared in the history of life? However when going to your new job, The Store Manager asks that you not stick to the Recipe's which make the Food what they are. Thus making them lessthan what they used to be when originally prepared?

Don't get that line of thought? What if you were a Lawyer and you had a success rate 95% in defending or prosecuting clients and the Firm hired you SOLELYbased on your previous performance. However after hiring you they asked you to change your approach in the way you practice and your success rate dipped tobelow 70% or even less. How would you feel?

Too much to think about? Or even relate to? I'll bring it down a notch.

Lets say you worked at a local Sneaker Boutique and was the TOP salesmen. Sold to kids, Adults, Old People who don't even wear Sneakers and Footlockerheard about you and decided to hire you on. Yet they asked you to not use some of the Sales Tactics you previously used and your sales plummet considerablybecause someone who hadn't done what you did had you switch up your style. What would you do? How would you feel?

Well...enough examples? Being a Teacher with 95% graduation rate and being told to change your teaching style and after that all your kids fail. Being a#%#!@! charging one rate and getting tipped even MORE because you had the best booty on the block.. but a Pimp tells you to switch it up and you start to losebusiness and can't even get anyone to stop to even consider banging you. hmmmmm.....

Ok... well imagine being a Designer.. and let me put this out there. yes.. I happen to be good friends with a few Designers and know what they go through.I've said before and will say it now. Everything they design isn't the greatest, but most of them have had more cancelled or changed than otherCompanies have released.

Imagine designing a shoe which was YOUR concept, your marketing story, Technology YOU tested and developed. Then you were told why don't we change this alittle, maybe we can tweak this some. Ahhh.. this probably won't make it to production OR may cost too much (even though we know thats a sham).

The ONE Concept you thought about, put MUCH of your time into, because THIS was the shot you got, and someone who doesn't design, didn't come up withthe Marketing of it decides something else is best for its eventual outcome. (Even though MJ loved it)

Would YOU feel like what is put on Shelves is the same as what YOU originally designed? Many of you may not really realize this but once ANYTHING is changedfrom an original concept, it no longer bears the same integrity AS its original. Its no longer ALL YOUR idea. Granted. Many around thedesign process can add to the Success of the Design. Hell that was my dream job being a Product Line Manager.

But every change is not ALWAYS a good one JUST for the sake of change.

If you are banging your girl or your wife the way she likes it and all of sudden you listen to tips your boy gives you and she ends up unhappy and its not theway it used to be AT least you can go back to what was working.

Keep this in mind when seeing some stuff that comes out for ANY company.

Designers don't have that luxury.

Unless your name IS Tinker. And everything he's done in life is Gold Jerry.

 

[Ja's 2¢]

sup Rock! yes that sounds very restrictive. Its like the old saying one's potential is always held down by someone else. I am guessing there was adifferent AJ2009 then? And the ones releasing are garbage compared to the OG pair?

 

[vegetaray123]

I for one would love to see what Jason Mayden came up with for the 2009 initially...Of course there is always going to be somebody looking over your shouldertelling to change this and change that...

Let's see some early sample pics............

 

[rafool]

I wouldn't want anyone, ANYONE controlling what I'm best at or what I love to do and tell me how they want me to do it but maybe I will if I'mtrying to get up hire and support a family you know? I'm not saying that's me now but if that happens to me in the future then that's what I woulddo, it's either that or probably get fired.

So what you're trying to say on the last part though is that, it's not the designers fault that the final product comes out like it does but thecompanies? For example Jordan Brand's designer?

 

[charmcitykid]

i get what ur saying. and i can relate. just like a musician or artist has to make certain changes that the record company deems "necessary." andthese are usually things u HAVE to do. and almost 100% of the time the integrity is compromised, even if it IS well received from the public. but the factremains that, if the public thinks it sucks, it doesn't matter that it ORIGINALLY would've been well- received.

all the public has to go on is the finished product. if it sucks, it sucks, regardless of whatever. that is sad, but true. what are u gonna do??

 

[rockdeep]

I will say these few things. I have Always believed each shoe should have its Design Inspiration explained or told in one form or another to the Consumer sothey can experience or appreciate the product they are wearing. It may lead one who usually wouldn't be interested to become interested in the shoe.

This happens all over the place, and ANY designer not only at Nike can tell you they wish this was the case. How can someone who didn't belong to theconcept explain the Inspiration unless they have a seat at the table and a major input for how their design will be marketed.

The problem with that like ANY industry is, many folks whose job it is to Market don't really get behind an idea IF it is not their own. Its called EGO.lol Many at Nike have it, yet don't know how to check it. Many of the Designers dont have those types of EGO's.

Jason Mayden for instance doesn't just design a shoe. He creates a story BEFORE the shoe is put into full motion. If he tells you design inspiration behindsome of his other Signature shoes, you almost forget he is talking about a shoe. lol Seriously.

You look down and think, this shouldn't be a shoe at all. It should be a Movie!!!!

And the folks who have say on how things are changed arent always the boss, just people placed in certain areas to 'help" develop the design.Designers don't really feel they are a hindrance all the time and think its this or leave mentality, but once its way to the left or right of the intialvision...its down that same ole role.

Oc
Jay
D
Kenzo
Alpha
Leo

All amazing Designers who aren't in the Kitchen...but if they were. Man oh man.... you'd see what they came up with on the first go round.

Dolce another phenom behind the Penny Half Cent and future Nike Sport Culture Hybrids has more autonomy, which is why you see something as nice as the PennyHalf Cent.

Hell pics of early Samps or Designs which you will see Im sure and have already in some clips here would just frustrate most.. I know it does me. lol

 

[milestailsprowe]

Thats Life. I bet money that theres a whole warehouse full of what should have been released from jay be that all would love just as much or more then Sig linethat wasnt realased.

 

[charmcitykid]

Originally Posted by Rafool

I wouldn't want anyone, ANYONE controlling what I'm best at or what I love to do and tell me how they want me to do it but maybe I will if I'm
trying to get up hire and support a family you know? I'm not saying that's me now but if that happens to me in the future then that's what I would
do, it's either that or probably get fired.




So what you're trying to say on the last part though is that, it's not the designers fault that the final product comes out like it does but the
companies? For example Jordan Brand's designer?

only way to avoid that is to BE YOUR OWN BOSS. and even then u sometimes have to bend when dealing with sponsors and such. but we should all know by now, if uwork for somebody then u have to do what ur told or quit. simple as that.

 

[rafool]

Originally Posted by CharmCityKid

Originally Posted by Rafool

I wouldn't want anyone, ANYONE controlling what I'm best at or what I love to do and tell me how they want me to do it but maybe I will if I'm
trying to get up hire and support a family you know? I'm not saying that's me now but if that happens to me in the future then that's what I would
do, it's either that or probably get fired.




So what you're trying to say on the last part though is that, it's not the designers fault that the final product comes out like it does but the
companies? For example Jordan Brand's designer?

only way to avoid that is to BE YOUR OWN BOSS. and even then u sometimes have to bend when dealing with sponsors and such. but we should all know by now, if u work for somebody then u have to do what ur told or quit. simple as that.

pretty much

 

[dunksnjordans1992]

wow never knew there could be a niketlk legend.... you made and excellent point though

 

[jthagreat]

Hope no one gets in trouble....

 

[clintmj23]

Sadly, control happens in every aspect of life. Even though we may not think it or know it.

The sad part about Jordan Brand is that they do not listen to feedback from consumers. The only feedback they take a look at is bottom line, money.

I work in the car audio biz as a commision salesman and what I've seen over the years mirrors the path JB is taking. A high-end company with a small nicheof audiophile consumers changes it up one day and decides to cater to all posible audio consumers, thus driving quality and integrity down, but uppingmanufacturing of cheaper models seeing the extra profit due to more volume. With all of this lower quality crap, defective rates go way up as with unhappyconsumers, but the number of sales is the bottom line. Sad to see...

 

[kyrac2]

Originally Posted by Rafool

Originally Posted by CharmCityKid

Originally Posted by Rafool

only way to avoid that is to BE YOUR OWN BOSS. and even then u sometimes have to bend when dealing with sponsors and such. but we should all know by now, if u work for somebody then u have to do what ur told or quit. simple as that.

pretty much

that's life and that's how things work. everyone pretty much has to appease someone else. unless you are truly your own boss you have totake in account and adjust to what someone else wants. that's why so many people loose that fire for things they once loved

 

[lovemy23kicks]

FINALLY A POST WITH SOME INTELLECT AND DEEP THOUGHT.....but yea, i will agree with you, it must be VERY frustrating as a designer to put so much work intosomething and to have someone above you flip it and morph it to something that bares no reflection to all your hard work.

 

[rockdeep]

I guess my point is basically for critics who think its easy to design a shoe. You have to be as original as humanly possible to not come up with somethingthat has never been done before.

This was not to create a pity party for designers. They chose and choose to be who they are. However they are bound to rules and constraints much like everyoneelse.

However, I take MANY things into account differently now than I did before knowing the process. I know it doesn't ALWAYS rest in the lap of the Designer.BUT you'd have to be of an intelligent or logical mindset to understand that.

 

[jibbycanoe]

that is great and I feel you but that pretty much happens with any and all jobs

 

[rockdeep]

^^ I said that, but there are MANY other jobs where one person doesn't have to take the responsibility for something that was the result of othersaffecting the final outcome. But I think the point will continue to be missed by many lol..

Of course.

Hey I say hate the shoe if you hate it.. just realize when you see and read everything you have access to, that there is always more to why things end up theway they do. This is more for the Shoe Enthusiast not the Designer. He knows what he has ahead of him most times or at least soon after being able to do it.

I only speak on the frustration anyone would have in their positions in life as a designer MIGHT although I am sure they ALL are glad they are able to do whatthey do. OR they wouldn't be doing it long.

 

[arff23]

Thanks Rock...

All I wanna do is get there and design something.....Not even worried if it gets changed, but just knowing im there and helped...


Good post as always though...

 

[eebs7eez]

the title alone got me onto exactly what you meant, rock. i think it happens a lot and eventually everyone gets affected by this one time or another in theirlife.

it definitely would not be easy designing a shoe.

and onto what you talked about regarding marketing, you're completely right. even if the tissue paper you put the shoes in was covered in previouslyscrapped blueprints and small detail drawings, a lot of people would understand what goes into a shoe. a dvd showing the process of making a shoe like the nikeid boot room that was just posted, people would change a lot of their opinions regarding shoes. just my two cents.

 

[jibbycanoe]

Originally Posted by RockDeep

^^ I said that, but there are MANY other jobs where one person doesn't have to take the responsibility for something that was the result of others affecting the final outcome. But I think the point will continue to be missed by many lol..

Of course.

Hey I say hate the shoe if you hate it.. just realize when you see and read everything you have access to, that there is always more to why things end up the way they do. This is more for the Shoe Enthusiast not the Designer. He knows what he has ahead of him most times or at least soon after being able to do it.

I only speak on the frustration anyone would have in their positions in life as a designer MIGHT although I am sure they ALL are glad they are able to do what they do. OR they wouldn't be doing it long.

well sir I do really understand and agree with your point. as a student in geology/environmental science I was very idealistic as to what life hadin store for me, as I'm guessing designers do when they start. but as my career has progressed, and I have worked for both large and small firms, I havenot escaped that my views and opinions on projects and approaches those projects will always get hacked down, changed, reformulated, and so on. or I will betold to write an argument that I do not believe in. so trust me, I very much relate to and feel for these folks. I donot blame them as I do not blame myself for how my ideas and work get changed. I know that it is the people who are driven by 'the bottom line' orshareholders expectations that make the final call. is it sad? yes. is it going to change anytime soon? probably not.
so again sir, I am very much in agreement. pardon my initial jaded response, but I am experiencing the very same thing with a project I am working on (orsupposed to be working on that is) at this very moment. all I can say is that the love is still in there somewhere and though it does not shine as brightly asit once did it will never go away

 

[diddydadagger]

I know alot of guys endure it as far as developing goes. I've been told and shown some of the shoes that have been past releases or will be future releaseswere waaaaayyyyy better before modifications had to be made. For some consumers, they aren't too concerned with what is going on behind closed doors andwill directly critique a design. I think that pushes the designer to be even more creative and take their talent to the next level to where their designcan't be tampered with or not appreciated. Shout out to JT......still waiting to see that Joe Johnson logo!!!!

 

[biglefty23]

Rock,

Generally I agree with your posts. I see where you're coming from and why you get frustrated. Maybe the original design is the best thing and maybe theoriginal design would sell more, but everything "these companies" are putting out sells. It's simple. People complain all day and night about thecrap that Nike/JB puts out, but no one does anything about it. I know I won't buy the retro 11's. The quality is crap. I won't buy a pair offusions for anything close to retail (I'd buy some AJF3's for $40-50 maybe). People need to stop buying crap and maybe things will change.

Secondly, this happens in every industry. People knock you down a peg every time you do something well just so you don't get a big head. Maybe the shoespeople design are perfect, would sell more, and would be instant classics, but why would we need the guy above them telling them what to do then? Sometimeshaving a "Team Lead" just means that person keeps you in check. We all know they go to BS meetings all day and have 0 functional purpose, but theyhave the power. It happens everywhere and it's a shame.

Lefty

 

[rockdeep]

^^
Thats an excellent summation my man. Really. I have seen it for years....

And the Irony is in this statement alone:

..."why would we need the guy above them telling them what to do then? Sometimes having a "Team Lead" just means that person keeps you in check.We all know they go to BS meetings all day and have 0 functional purpose, but they have the power. It happens everywhere and it's a shame. "

It truely is when that person adds nothing.... but I can say there are MANY who do add alot to the end result. Its just those designs rarely get critiqued. lol

 

[w3stchicago]

Originally Posted by Rafool

I wouldn't want anyone, ANYONE controlling what I'm best at or what I love to do and tell me how they want me to do it but maybe I will if I'm trying to get up hire and support a family you know? I'm not saying that's me now but if that happens to me in the future then that's what I would do, it's either that or probably get fired.

So what you're trying to say on the last part though is that, it's not the designers fault that the final product comes out like it does but the companies? For example Jordan Brand's designer?

First, thats business. Everywhere you go, if your not the boss, you will be told to do something their way. And to get up hire and support afamily? Do you have a family yet? Because if you do or once you do you have to change that attitude really quickly or else you wont support your family. Youhave to listen and respect higher authority, especially in this economy. And what he's saying, is what you said. Its not the designers fault. Its thecompany who looks at the shoe and says add this and delete that and all that crap. So the designer who is supporting his family listens to what they say.

 

[protoman11]

Hmm I get what you're saying, but I think I sympasize MORE with the first examples you threw out there than with the shoe designer example. I mean I guessI understand that a shoe designer's design, his BABY, might not be too appealing to the public [not that what the end result of a lot of the shoes JB iscoming out with these days].