Why don't sportcasters keep it real about Lebron?

[4shoposite]

Originally Posted by jmb1523

I think people are flaming the OP because of how he went about it, His arguments have some truth in them, but he makes it seem like bron is some sucky player that shouldnt average 30 a game.

And that's what makes them so mad...I can tell. I never said Lebron was a sorry player. I've said that he's one of the best SFs in the game, and all the others he does throughout the game can make up for this flaw in a team concept. But imho - i can't call him the best player in the game because of that. I just can't.

And that's a bald-faced lie. Michael Jordan had a basketball IQ that was > than 99.5% of the NBA at that time. He could out-smart the opposition with ease. I went to many of his games during his tenure in DC and left amazed each and every time because he wasn't getting buckets based solely off of his athleticism. Mike WAS NOT a"pure scorer" at 38/39 years old. He had to rely on craftiness and guile to do what he had to do
Dude, I'm trying to read this over and over but I still can't see where you are disagreeing with me. At the age of 40...whether it was his craftines or not...still showed that MJ was a pure scorer. The only problem is that night in and night out he didn't have the legs to illustrate it. Watch footage of Jordan of the Wiz...his halfcourt game was so much better than Lebron's is now.

  

 

[4shoposite]

Originally Posted by jmb1523

I think people are flaming the OP because of how he went about it, His arguments have some truth in them, but he makes it seem like bron is some sucky player that shouldnt average 30 a game.

And that's what makes them so mad...I can tell. I never said Lebron was a sorry player. I've said that he's one of the best SFs in the game, and all the others he does throughout the game can make up for this flaw in a team concept. But imho - i can't call him the best player in the game because of that. I just can't.

And that's a bald-faced lie. Michael Jordan had a basketball IQ that was > than 99.5% of the NBA at that time. He could out-smart the opposition with ease. I went to many of his games during his tenure in DC and left amazed each and every time because he wasn't getting buckets based solely off of his athleticism. Mike WAS NOT a"pure scorer" at 38/39 years old. He had to rely on craftiness and guile to do what he had to do
Dude, I'm trying to read this over and over but I still can't see where you are disagreeing with me. At the age of 40...whether it was his craftines or not...still showed that MJ was a pure scorer. The only problem is that night in and night out he didn't have the legs to illustrate it. Watch footage of Jordan of the Wiz...his halfcourt game was so much better than Lebron's is now.

  

 

[lukethejediknight]

"Watch footage of Jordan of the Wiz...his halfcourt game was so much better than Lebron's is now."

I would think that his "so much better game" at age 40 would've actually translate into results. Which it didn't.

You're not standing on ANY legs in your argument. You get wrapped up in HOW a player gets it done instead of the fact that heeeeeeee...just gets it done.

 

[lukethejediknight]

"Watch footage of Jordan of the Wiz...his halfcourt game was so much better than Lebron's is now."

I would think that his "so much better game" at age 40 would've actually translate into results. Which it didn't.

You're not standing on ANY legs in your argument. You get wrapped up in HOW a player gets it done instead of the fact that heeeeeeee...just gets it done.

 

[nicedudewithnicedreams]

Just for clarification purposes, which T-Mac were you referring to that did not have a quick first step? Leggo!

 

[nicedudewithnicedreams]

Just for clarification purposes, which T-Mac were you referring to that did not have a quick first step? Leggo!

 

[4shoposite]

Originally Posted by LuketheJediKnight

I would think that his "so much better game" at age 40 would've actually translate into results. Which it didn't.

Like I said, the problem with MJ on the Wiz is that he didn't have the energy and legs to showcase the results every night. If Mark Price missed two straight fts because his legs are tired, was he not a great ft shooter still because he missed the fts? MJ couldn't score the way he wanted every night solely because he just couldn't get up for games like he once had every night. But if you watch the way he played and saw just how skillful he was, you would still see that his offensive capabilitie were still much more advanced than Lebron's.

You get wrapped up in HOW a player gets it done instead of the fact that heeeeeeee...just gets it done.


you right...I do. But that's because I understand the importance in how a player scores and whether or not an offense should run through them as a primary scorer. I used the big man example. I've used the Derek Fisher example. 

But if you can understand that there's a difference between a player gets a defensive rebound in a crowd of players under the rim and a player who gets a defensive rebound on a missed ft that bounces his way...you can understand that in a lot of basketball plays, the game is played above the stats.  If I'm trying to do anything here, it's trying to teach people to look at the specifics of basketball. The details of the game.

Just for clarification purposes, which T-Mac were you referring to that did not have a quick first step? Leggo!
Raptors TMAC.  Orlando TMAC. Houton TMAC. TMAC now. I'm a big McGrady fan...but I'm a fan because I really just liked watching him play. I have games on games. You can talk to me about Orlando games and I can probably tell you about them. Even as a fan, I realized this flaw in McGrady. McGrady depended on picks as much as any player I've seen.  As rare as it is that you can find Lebron beating a man straight up...it was just as rare for McGrady. Like AK47...TMAC used to beast on Glenn Robinson in those play games, and Tim Thomas because he had a advantage over them. But Tracy started shooting that pull up three in transition and shooting more on the outside not because he was settling...not because that's what the defense was giving him. McGrady just had a very poor first step

 And if you really observe his game, the dude really couldn't finish that well when he slashed. He used to and still does yell ALL the time when he drives in and throws something up because he's praying for a foul.

 

[4shoposite]

Originally Posted by LuketheJediKnight

I would think that his "so much better game" at age 40 would've actually translate into results. Which it didn't.

Like I said, the problem with MJ on the Wiz is that he didn't have the energy and legs to showcase the results every night. If Mark Price missed two straight fts because his legs are tired, was he not a great ft shooter still because he missed the fts? MJ couldn't score the way he wanted every night solely because he just couldn't get up for games like he once had every night. But if you watch the way he played and saw just how skillful he was, you would still see that his offensive capabilitie were still much more advanced than Lebron's.

You get wrapped up in HOW a player gets it done instead of the fact that heeeeeeee...just gets it done.


you right...I do. But that's because I understand the importance in how a player scores and whether or not an offense should run through them as a primary scorer. I used the big man example. I've used the Derek Fisher example. 

But if you can understand that there's a difference between a player gets a defensive rebound in a crowd of players under the rim and a player who gets a defensive rebound on a missed ft that bounces his way...you can understand that in a lot of basketball plays, the game is played above the stats.  If I'm trying to do anything here, it's trying to teach people to look at the specifics of basketball. The details of the game.

Just for clarification purposes, which T-Mac were you referring to that did not have a quick first step? Leggo!
Raptors TMAC.  Orlando TMAC. Houton TMAC. TMAC now. I'm a big McGrady fan...but I'm a fan because I really just liked watching him play. I have games on games. You can talk to me about Orlando games and I can probably tell you about them. Even as a fan, I realized this flaw in McGrady. McGrady depended on picks as much as any player I've seen.  As rare as it is that you can find Lebron beating a man straight up...it was just as rare for McGrady. Like AK47...TMAC used to beast on Glenn Robinson in those play games, and Tim Thomas because he had a advantage over them. But Tracy started shooting that pull up three in transition and shooting more on the outside not because he was settling...not because that's what the defense was giving him. McGrady just had a very poor first step

 And if you really observe his game, the dude really couldn't finish that well when he slashed. He used to and still does yell ALL the time when he drives in and throws something up because he's praying for a foul.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

"Depends on picks"

This thread is ridiculous and it's becoming obvious that isolation plays are the most overrated part of basketball.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

"Depends on picks"

This thread is ridiculous and it's becoming obvious that isolation plays are the most overrated part of basketball.

 

[lukethejediknight]

"But if you can understand thatthere'sa difference between a playergets a defensive rebound ina crowd of players under the rim and a player who gets a defensive rebound on a missed ft thatbounces his way...you can understand thatin a lot of basketball plays, the game is played above the stats."

Um, what stats are you looking at? The thing us, they already GOT ways to account for these things you're looking for. You need to get away from the per game numbers and find them.

 

[lukethejediknight]

"But if you can understand thatthere'sa difference between a playergets a defensive rebound ina crowd of players under the rim and a player who gets a defensive rebound on a missed ft thatbounces his way...you can understand thatin a lot of basketball plays, the game is played above the stats."

Um, what stats are you looking at? The thing us, they already GOT ways to account for these things you're looking for. You need to get away from the per game numbers and find them.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

also anybody who believes that constantly overweight Carmelo Anthony has a quicker first step than ANYBODY is out of there minds.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

also anybody who believes that constantly overweight Carmelo Anthony has a quicker first step than ANYBODY is out of there minds.

 

[Deleted member 38307]

Originally Posted by kix4kix

Lebron is gonna struggle when teams actually start playing defense (playoffs)

So no one plays defense in the regular season?

 

[Deleted member 38307]

Originally Posted by kix4kix

Lebron is gonna struggle when teams actually start playing defense (playoffs)

So no one plays defense in the regular season?

 

[4shoposite]

Originally Posted by LuketheJediKnight

Um, what stats are you looking at? The thing us, they already GOT ways to account for these things you're looking for. You need to get away from the per game numbers and find them.

And you need to get away from the stat sheet and just start observing your opinion from the game. My point isn't that there's a stat that shows that....my point is that in basketball and on the court, there's more underlining in things than just a number before and after a decimal. If Spudd Webb played a organized basketball game where all the other players were 5'2 and he became a beast on the boards, you still consider him a great rebounder? Assistant coaches get payed to look at certain details about players and I'm pretty sure from watching the games that Spolestras team has identified this weakness about Lebron.

This thread is ridiculous and it's becoming obvious that isolation plays are the most overrated part of basketball. 
And that's cool if you feel like. I on the otherhand put a little more importance in it when it comes to identifying a player who you should run your offense through offensively...but that's a different argument for a different day.

My point is that Lebron has a weak first step and is a average at best halfcourt scorer. I could have said that Lebron can't shoot fts that well and still focused on trying to make my point. I'm talking about a specific flaw in his game that I feel shouldn't make him the best player. If you have different values, then kudos. But I'm arguing this point solely because it seems to go unrecognized and people still call him the best player in the world.

  

 

[4shoposite]

Originally Posted by LuketheJediKnight

Um, what stats are you looking at? The thing us, they already GOT ways to account for these things you're looking for. You need to get away from the per game numbers and find them.

And you need to get away from the stat sheet and just start observing your opinion from the game. My point isn't that there's a stat that shows that....my point is that in basketball and on the court, there's more underlining in things than just a number before and after a decimal. If Spudd Webb played a organized basketball game where all the other players were 5'2 and he became a beast on the boards, you still consider him a great rebounder? Assistant coaches get payed to look at certain details about players and I'm pretty sure from watching the games that Spolestras team has identified this weakness about Lebron.

This thread is ridiculous and it's becoming obvious that isolation plays are the most overrated part of basketball. 
And that's cool if you feel like. I on the otherhand put a little more importance in it when it comes to identifying a player who you should run your offense through offensively...but that's a different argument for a different day.

My point is that Lebron has a weak first step and is a average at best halfcourt scorer. I could have said that Lebron can't shoot fts that well and still focused on trying to make my point. I'm talking about a specific flaw in his game that I feel shouldn't make him the best player. If you have different values, then kudos. But I'm arguing this point solely because it seems to go unrecognized and people still call him the best player in the world.

  

 

[mytoasterspeak]

Originally Posted by 4Shoposite

LuketheJediKnight wrote:

---

Um, what stats are you looking at? The thing us, they already GOT ways to account for these things you're looking for. You need to get away from the per game numbers and find them.

And you need to get away from the stat sheet and just start observing your opinion from the game. My point isn't that there's a stat that shows that....my point is that in basketball and on the court, there's more underlining in things than just a number before and after a decimal. If Spudd Webb played a organized basketball game where all the other players were 5'2 and he became a beast on the boards, you still consider him a great rebounder? Assistant coaches get payed to look at certain details about players and I'm pretty sure from watching the games that Spolestras team has identified this weakness about Lebron.

This thread is ridiculous and it's becoming obvious that isolation plays are the most overrated part of basketball. 
And that's cool if you feel like. I on the otherhand put a little more importance in it when it comes to identifying a player who you should run your offense through offensively...but that's a different argument for a different day.

My point is that Lebron has a weak first step and is a average at best halfcourt scorer. I could have said that Lebron can't shoot fts that well and still focused on trying to make my point. I'm talking about a specific flaw in his game that I feel shouldn't make him the best player. If you have different values, then kudos. But I'm arguing this point solely because it seems to go unrecognized and people still call him the best player in the world.

  



You right dude. But you're just wasting your time in here.

/Jay-z/ "A wise man told me don't argue with fools/Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who" /Jay-Z/

 

[mytoasterspeak]

Originally Posted by 4Shoposite

LuketheJediKnight wrote:

---

Um, what stats are you looking at? The thing us, they already GOT ways to account for these things you're looking for. You need to get away from the per game numbers and find them.

And you need to get away from the stat sheet and just start observing your opinion from the game. My point isn't that there's a stat that shows that....my point is that in basketball and on the court, there's more underlining in things than just a number before and after a decimal. If Spudd Webb played a organized basketball game where all the other players were 5'2 and he became a beast on the boards, you still consider him a great rebounder? Assistant coaches get payed to look at certain details about players and I'm pretty sure from watching the games that Spolestras team has identified this weakness about Lebron.

This thread is ridiculous and it's becoming obvious that isolation plays are the most overrated part of basketball. 
And that's cool if you feel like. I on the otherhand put a little more importance in it when it comes to identifying a player who you should run your offense through offensively...but that's a different argument for a different day.

My point is that Lebron has a weak first step and is a average at best halfcourt scorer. I could have said that Lebron can't shoot fts that well and still focused on trying to make my point. I'm talking about a specific flaw in his game that I feel shouldn't make him the best player. If you have different values, then kudos. But I'm arguing this point solely because it seems to go unrecognized and people still call him the best player in the world.

  



You right dude. But you're just wasting your time in here.

/Jay-z/ "A wise man told me don't argue with fools/Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who" /Jay-Z/

 

[lukethejediknight]

"My point isn't that there's a stat that shows that...."

My point is that there is. It's called rebounding %, which is based on the very things you mentioned about rebounding in your post (the straw man about Spud Webb notwithstanding).

It's amazing how people complain about simple counting and per game stats and then choose to avoid the stats that give you much more info about the game. They are there. Use them.

 

[lukethejediknight]

"My point isn't that there's a stat that shows that...."

My point is that there is. It's called rebounding %, which is based on the very things you mentioned about rebounding in your post (the straw man about Spud Webb notwithstanding).

It's amazing how people complain about simple counting and per game stats and then choose to avoid the stats that give you much more info about the game. They are there. Use them.

 

[nicedudewithnicedreams]

Originally Posted by 4Shoposite

Raptors TMAC.  Orlando TMAC. Houton TMAC. TMAC now. I'm a big McGrady fan...but I'm a fan because I really just liked watching him play. I have games on games. You can talk to me about Orlando games and I can probably tell you about them. Even as a fan, I realized this flaw in McGrady. McGrady depended on picks as much as any player I've seen.  As rare as it is that you can find Lebron beating a man straight up...it was just as rare for McGrady. Like AK47...TMAC used to beast on Glenn Robinson in those play games, and Tim Thomas because he had a advantage over them. But Tracy started shooting that pull up three in transition and shooting more on the outside not because he was settling...not because that's what the defense was giving him. McGrady just had a very poor first step

 And if you really observe his game, the dude really couldn't finish that well when he slashed. He used to and still does yell ALL the time when he drives in and throws something up because he's praying for a foul.

I will politely agree to disagree with your points. The game isn't one on one and T-Mac wasn't about that life unless he had to. You should re-watch those games again and understand the defense being utilized against T-Mac. T-Mac destroyed AK47 in the playoffs so badly that dude was crying after the game. Of course, this was a mentally weak and no confidence AK47.

And I have to ask, does Kobe not have a good first step too?  

   

 

[nicedudewithnicedreams]

Originally Posted by 4Shoposite

Raptors TMAC.  Orlando TMAC. Houton TMAC. TMAC now. I'm a big McGrady fan...but I'm a fan because I really just liked watching him play. I have games on games. You can talk to me about Orlando games and I can probably tell you about them. Even as a fan, I realized this flaw in McGrady. McGrady depended on picks as much as any player I've seen.  As rare as it is that you can find Lebron beating a man straight up...it was just as rare for McGrady. Like AK47...TMAC used to beast on Glenn Robinson in those play games, and Tim Thomas because he had a advantage over them. But Tracy started shooting that pull up three in transition and shooting more on the outside not because he was settling...not because that's what the defense was giving him. McGrady just had a very poor first step

 And if you really observe his game, the dude really couldn't finish that well when he slashed. He used to and still does yell ALL the time when he drives in and throws something up because he's praying for a foul.

I will politely agree to disagree with your points. The game isn't one on one and T-Mac wasn't about that life unless he had to. You should re-watch those games again and understand the defense being utilized against T-Mac. T-Mac destroyed AK47 in the playoffs so badly that dude was crying after the game. Of course, this was a mentally weak and no confidence AK47.

And I have to ask, does Kobe not have a good first step too?  

   

 

[4shoposite]

That's fine man. I'm not a hater, so if a person disagrees with my "theory" then it's okay by me. Like I said, I still love TMAC and will forever be a fan. It's just certain flaws that I saw in his game.

And yes - he abused AK47. But that was my point. There are certain players TMAC knew he had the ability to beat. AK47...Glenn Robinson, Tim Thomas. These are the same type of players I coincidently see that Lebron likes to feast on given the chance. But you can go back and look at all the games you might still have from the years of McGrady in his prime and see the similarities. I'm not saying he can't beat his man...just not consistently. The defense schemed to stop TMac wasn't that threatening. The problem with Tracy is that he used a lot of picks and that's why when teams tighten up he wasn't that dependable. Tracy had a more consistent outside shot though, so sometimes that his his weakness.

I put importance on this ability because secretly - it is what turns a good player into a great player. Your ability to destroy your man one on one without any help, schemes, or mismatch strategies opens up so much more for your teammates. It's hard for me to properly explain by just typing about it...

If I was building a team, I would want a player in a system that can destroy his defender but have a "system" with the right players that other players can work around that man's ability. People think the triangle offense is a "team oriented" offense. The triangle offense is a isolation offense that makes the other 4 players play in a system to keep the defender who's defending the primary scorer in isolation honest. The same way stars win championships is the same way isolation ball is very underrated if done right. I have seen some exceptions like the Detroit Pistons...but their team was just a different type of beast...so even I admit that my theory has flaws and exceptions.

I use Coach K as an example...because I dissect Coach K's coaching down to a T. This dude builds his teams the same way to play in his system. He finds one or two guys who can destroy their man off the dribble, and he concentrates on teaching the other players to use the "step advantage" they have from the penetration to keep the defense off balance. This is in part why so many of his players are great in college but look so average in the pros. A "step advantage" is like a player spotting up for a three...and catches the ball after a penetrator has drived and dished with the defense collapsing...now that player spotting up has a step advantage because a defender is running out to him. He has a great advantage of beating that guy by purely on the fact that the defense is one or two steps behind. Every team utilizes this strategy, but Coach K emphasizes this strategy as the main focus of beating opposing teams. Year in and year out he creates his teams this way. He's an excellent coach who has mastered what a lot of other coaches haven't.

But this is all of my opinion of what I find important.