why is it such a sin to say anyone will be better than Michael Jordan?

[DCAllAfrican]

I can't believe dudes are acting like Scottie in his prime was better than Wade in his prime? For real? You rather take a 22-7-6 guy over Wade from 04-10, really?

Scottie was a great player, no doubt. But clearly was not an Alpha Dog. In the clutch, Phil was drawing up plays for Toni Kukoc! I don't ever remember Scottie dominating a playoff series. Where was Pip when Chicago lost to Orlando in 95?

Wade beasted in the playoffs his first 3 years in the league, and then did it again in a loss to Boston in 09. Scottie just didn't have that type of game.

Why are stats the first thing you bring up when their roles were different?

Scottie is one of the best defensive non-bigs in NBA History. Always guarded the best player. Essentially was the PG for the majority of those teams.

I would take Pippen over Wade because of his versitility. One of the best all-around players in NBA history.

 

[westcoastsfinest]

I guess I'm a sinner. Magic Johnson is greater than Mike.

 

[you go boy]

if you watched jordan play in his prime live and not on videos then you would know why hes the best... these young bucks who were born during jordans playing days dont know jack

 

[solarius49]

I guess I'm a sinner. Magic Johnson is greater than Mike.

I dont think any of these are hypothetical

Season    Age  Tm  Lg Pos    G   GS   MP   FG  FGA  FG%  3P 3PA  3P%   FT  FTA  FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV  PF  PTS
1984-85    21 CHI NBA  SG   82   82 38.3 10.2 19.8 .515 0.1 0.6 .173  7.7  9.1 .845 2.0 4.5 6.5 5.9 2.4 0.8 3.5 3.5 28.2
1985-86    22 CHI NBA  SG   18    7 25.1  8.3 18.2 .457 0.2 1.0 .167  5.8  6.9 .840 1.3 2.3 3.6 2.9 2.1 1.2 2.5 2.6 22.7
1986-87    23 CHI NBA  SG   82   82 40.0 13.4 27.8 .482 0.1 0.8 .182 10.2 11.9 .857 2.0 3.2 5.2 4.6 2.9 1.5 3.3 2.9 37.1
1987-88    24 CHI NBA  SG   82   82 40.4 13.0 24.4 .535 0.1 0.6 .132  8.8 10.5 .841 1.7 3.8 5.5 5.9 3.2 1.6 3.1 3.3 35.0
1988-89    25 CHI NBA  SG   81   81 40.2 11.9 22.2 .538 0.3 1.2 .276  8.3  9.8 .850 1.8 6.2 8.0 8.0 2.9 0.8 3.6 3.0 32.5
1989-90    26 CHI NBA  SG   82   82 39.0 12.6 24.0 .526 1.1 3.0 .376  7.2  8.5 .848 1.7 5.1 6.9 6.3 2.8 0.7 3.0 2.9 33.6
1990-91    27 CHI NBA  SG   82   82 37.0 12.1 22.4 .539 0.4 1.1 .312  7.0  8.2 .851 1.4 4.6 6.0 5.5 2.7 1.0 2.5 2.8 31.5
1991-92    28 CHI NBA  SG   80   80 38.8 11.8 22.7 .519 0.3 1.3 .270  6.1  7.4 .832 1.1 5.3 6.4 6.1 2.3 0.9 2.5 2.5 30.1
1992-93    29 CHI NBA  SG   78   78 39.3 12.7 25.7 .495 1.0 2.9 .352  6.1  7.3 .837 1.7 5.0 6.7 5.5 2.8 0.8 2.7 2.4 32.6
1994-95    31 CHI NBA  SG   17   17 39.3  9.8 23.8 .411 0.9 1.9 .500  6.4  8.0 .801 1.5 5.4 6.9 5.3 1.8 0.8 2.1 2.8 26.9
1995-96    32 CHI NBA  SG   82   82 37.7 11.2 22.6 .495 1.4 3.2 .427  6.7  8.0 .834 1.8 4.8 6.6 4.3 2.2 0.5 2.4 2.4 30.4
1996-97    33 CHI NBA  SG   82   82 37.9 11.2 23.1 .486 1.4 3.6 .374  5.9  7.0 .833 1.4 4.5 5.9 4.3 1.7 0.5 2.0 1.9 29.6
1997-98    34 CHI NBA  SG   82   82 38.8 10.7 23.1 .465 0.4 1.5 .238  6.9  8.8 .784 1.6 4.2 5.8 3.5 1.7 0.5 2.3 1.8 28.7
2001-02    38 WAS NBA  SF   60   53 34.9  9.2 22.1 .416 0.2 0.9 .189  4.4  5.6 .790 0.8 4.8 5.7 5.2 1.4 0.4 2.7 2.0 22.9
2002-03    39 WAS NBA  SF   82   67 37.0  8.3 18.6 .445 0.2 0.7 .291  3.2  4.0 .821 0.9 5.2 6.1 3.8 1.5 0.5 2.1 2.1 20.0
Career            NBA     1072 1039 38.3 11.4 22.9 .497 0.5 1.7 .327  6.8  8.2 .835 1.6 4.7 6.2 5.3 2.3 0.8 2.7 2.6 30.1

6 titles
6 Finals MVPS
39 50 point games
31 triple doubles
28 game winners
10x NBA scoring leader
3x NBA steals leader
11x NBA points leader
9x played 82 games
6 of the top 10 playoff scoring averages

only player to lead the league in scoring and win DPOY and MVP in the same season
only rookie in the NBA to lead his team in 4 statistical categories
1 of 2 players to score 3000 points in a season (Wilt)
hold the record for blocks by a guard in a season (131)
holds the record for blocks by a guard for a career (893)
only player in NBA history with multiple seasons of 200+ steals and 100+ blocks

NCAA National Championship - University of North Carolina: 1981-82
3x Atlantic Coast Conference regular season champions: 1981–82, 1982–83, 1983–84 (undefeated)
1982 ACC Tournament champions
ACC Rookie of the Year: 1982
Naismith College Player of the Year: 1984
John R. Wooden Award: 1984
Adolph Rupp Trophy: 1984
USBWA College Player of the Year: 1984
ACC Athlete of the Year: 1984
ACC Men's Basketball Player of the Year: 1984
2x The Sporting News College Player of the Year: 1983, 1984
2x Consensus First Team All-American: 1983, 1984

Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame Class of 2009
6-time NBA champion: 1991-93, 1996-98 (all with Chicago Bulls)
6 NBA Finals appearances: 1991-93, 1996-98
5-time NBA Most Valuable Player: 1988, 1991, 1992, 1996, 1998[1][2]
10-time scoring champion: 1987-93, 1996–98[3]
3-time steals leader: 1988, 1990, 1993
3-time minutes leader: 1987-89
14-time NBA All-Star: 1985-93, 1996–98, 2002-03[4]
3-time NBA All-Star Game MVP: 1988, 1996, 1998[5]
6-time NBA Finals Most Valuable Player: 1991-93, 1996-98[6]
1-time NBA Defensive Player of the Year: 1987-88[7]
11-time All-NBA selection:
First Team: 1987-93, 1996-98[8][9]
Second Team: 1985[8][9]
9-time All-Defensive selection:
First Team: 1988-93, 1996-98[1[11]
NBA All-Rookie selection:
First Team: 1985[12][13]
NBA Rookie of the Year: 1985[14]
2-time NBA Slam Dunk Contest champion: 1987, 1988[15]
Runner-up in 1985
7-time The Sporting News Most Valuable Player: 1987-88, 1988–89, 1990–91, 1991–92, 1995–96, 1996–97, 1997–98
Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year: 1991
Ranked #1 by SLAM Magazine's Top 75 Players of All-time
Ranked #1 by ESPN Sportscentury's Top 100 Athletes of the 20th Century
Selected in 1996 as one of the "50 Greatest Players in NBA History"
Selected in 1996 as member of two of the "Top 10 Teams in NBA History"

 

[benny bugatti]

Why are stats the first thing you bring up when their roles were different?

Scottie is one of the best defensive non-bigs in NBA History. Always guarded the best player. Essentially was the PG for the majority of those teams.

I would take Pippen over Wade because of his versitility. One of the best all-around players in NBA history.

Scottie was a lockdown defender, but at the same time, Wade made a lot of plays on D as well. I rather take Wade's offensive domination with above average D, versus Scottie being dominant at D, and above average on offensive side.

If I'm building an NBA team and first option is either Pip or D-Wade, I'm going with D-Wade, easy.

 

[nflowshoe]

I understand comparing Kobe to Jordan; they both play the same position-played in the same system-same coach-same height- etc... LeBron is another beast. I wouldn’t compare him to Kobe or Jordan. Maybe Magic or Bill Russell but not Kobe in Jordan. We never put Centers in the talk for greatest players of all time. I think LeBron will get that "center" treatment. It’s a guard league so Kobe and Jordan are going to always be held high for having 5-6 rings as guards.. While Bill Russell sits will 11 rings and a laundry list of stats and is never in the conversation for being the greatest.

Sad but true

 

[solarius49]

I understand comparing Kobe to Jordan; they both play the same position-played in the same system-same coach-same height- etc... LeBron is another beast. I wouldn’t compare him to Kobe or Jordan. Maybe Magic or Bill Russell but not Kobe in Jordan. We never put Centers in the talk for greatest players of all time. I think LeBron will get that "center" treatment. It’s a guard league so Kobe and Jordan are going to always be held high for having 5-6 rings as guards.. While Bill Russell sits will 11 rings and a laundry list of stats and is never in the conversation for being the greatest.

Sad but true

I've seen so many reasons why players in that era (Oscar Robertson) cant be the GOAT is ridiculous, like they didnt put in work. Even the rationalization that "players dribbled with 1 hand". Idk if its the alcoholm , but im furious

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Scottie was a lockdown defender, but at the same time, Wade made a lot of plays on D as well. I rather take Wade's offensive domination with above average D, versus Scottie being dominant at D, and above average on offensive side.

If I'm building an NBA team and first option is either Pip or D-Wade, I'm going with D-Wade, easy.

I prefer Pippen's size, passing, versatility and defensive ability. I would take Pippen over Wade. I won't say it is easy to prove a point though.

 

[ricky409]

The game was mentally challenging when mike played. People would hurt you. If you went into the paint you were going to get hit hard and you would not want to go back in. If you do that today, you will get a flagrant 2 and suspended.

People are too friendly these days. There isnt the same chippiness and competitive nature. Do you really think if lebron played during the 80s and 90s he would get that many easy lay ups? He would be mauled.

That was one of the biggest challenges MJ faced on his path to greatness - being abused by the Pistons and later the Knicks. This was physical but its also mental. The fear of going into the paint. It forces you to be a jump shooter.

Lebron is a great player and will be one of the greats just based on his stats and his ability to dominate a game.

If Jordan played today he would mentally decimate every player that guarded him except maybe kobe.

In my eyes, basketball greatness is based on 3 things - mental toughness, stats, and sadly rings. Right now Lebron doesn't measure up to Mr.Jordan and due to how soft this league has become, he never will.

i really dont think people understand just how big and powerful lebron james really is...

like... no romo but... famb is every bit of 6'9"... and i'm not buying that 260 nonsense anymore... famb cracking 275...

you dont think people are physically beat after guarding him all game?

 

[DCAllAfrican]

If LeBron played in the 1980's he would simply be adjusted to the style of play that is of that day and age. It is really as simple as that.

 

[solarius49]

If LeBron played in the 1980's he would simply be adjusted to the style of play that is of that day and age. It is really as simple as that.

I disagree, not in the sense of Lebron...but its not that easy to discertain a persons frame of mind during a certain period of time. If you put anybody in a different decade they might develop different. Dude is a phenomenal basketball player as much as I hate him though

 

[DCAllAfrican]

I disagree, not in the sense of Lebron...but its not that easy to discertain a persons frame of mind during a certain period of time. If you put anybody in a different decade they might develop different. Dude is a phenomenal basketball player as much as I hate him though

Of course due to "modern medicine" I doubt his body would look the way it is. But he is a great talent. GREAT talent. Once in a lifetime talent. I think he would be able to play in that era as well.

But like I said before, I don't think Bird would make it in this NBA.

 

[solarius49]

I disagree, not in the sense of Lebron...but its not that easy to discertain a persons frame of mind during a certain period of time. If you put anybody in a different decade they might develop different. Dude is a phenomenal basketball player as much as I hate him though

Of course due to "modern medicine" I doubt his body would look the way it is. But he is a great talent. GREAT talent. Once in a lifetime talent. I think he would be able to play in that era as well.

But like I said before, I don't think Bird would make it in this NBA.

but given modern medicine and training, whats stopping Bird from being ATLEAST Dirk, or not better? You have no idea....I'm assuming its because son is white...bc I've never heard anybody say that Bill Russel or Oscar Robertson wouldn't make it during this era....

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Well of course I don't KNOW anything. We are talking abnout a make believe universe. Well Dirk is 7-Feet tall. He is a "post" player. Bird would have to play on the wing. Who was the last great white wing player?

I bring up race because I don't think Bird would get as much opportunity in this era as he did in the 80s. Maybe he would get discriminated against which in turn wouldn't give him the chance to be the star that he was in the 80s.

I think it sound wild but being on the wing, I can't see someone with that little athletcsm being allowed to play long stretches to flourish like that.

Oscar was a freak of nature in his own era. Imagine him with today's advances.

Russell is a winner. He would probably be a specialist in today's game.

 

[solarius49]

"that little athleticism" is relative. He was VERY successful among the super athletes of the time. With todays athletes, whos to say he wouldnt be relatively as successful. There were still athletes in the 80s..and there are still guys who are marginal athletes who are GREAT today. I dont know that anybody would say Timmy, or Dirk are super athletic, but their skills make them all time greats...Bird could fit in with them

 

[shoeking2101]

I guess I'm a sinner. Magic Johnson is greater than Mike.

Lol have no idea how anyone could come to this conclusion but it's your opinion and I respect that.

I tend to side with DC on the whole bird thing. That bird that played in the 80's for sure wouldn't be a 20 point per game player in THIS NBA. However, if Bird was to grow up in today's world given the advances that we've made, who knows how he would turn out as a basketball player.

Also, I don't understand how a 6'8 260 player with the skill and athleticism as Lebron James wouldn't flourish in that NBA just as he would now. A player of that talent would simply adapt to the style of play during those times. Lebron is a pretty physical guy in his own right, so he would probably do almost what he's doing now in my opinion.

Finally, it isn't a sin to say that someone is better than Michael Jordan, in fact to me it's supposed to be that way. As I said earlier this week on NT, it's all evolution. The game would be in a bad state if no one became better than Jordan. As knowledge of basketball, and health, etc. increases, so do the ability of the players. In my personal Opinion, I think Lebron James is certainly every bit the player Jordan was, if he isn't he surely will end up that way. Doctor J was once the greatest ever, then magic and bird came, then Jordan came, then TD, Kobe, and Shaq came,(I don't believe those players are better than Jordan, however I do believe it isn't just clear cut and dry) and now Lebron is poised to make his claim, in fact he is. I tend to reside with the idea that it's impossible to determine "The Greatest of All Time" because there have been so many great players that have came and went and when you start talking the greatest ever, you're crossing generations, neglecting the time period in which that player played and what effects that time period had on the player.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

"that little athleticism" is relative. He was VERY successful among the super athletes of the time. With todays athletes, whos to say he wouldnt be relatively as successful. There were still athletes in the 80s..and there are still guys who are marginal athletes who are GREAT today. I dont know that anybody would say Timmy, or Dirk are super athletic, but their skills make them all time greats...Bird could fit in with them

Again, Timmy and Dirk are PF/C.

Name a below athletic (coming into the NBA) SF that has flourished over the last 20 years.

 

[jsindaa]

there isn't one that's been anywhere close to his skill level so that's not a great argument though

 

[DCAllAfrican]

there isn't one that's been anywhere close to his skill level so that's not a great argument though

Absolute skill or relative skill to their competition level?

 

[jsindaa]

Absolute skill or relative skill to their competition level?

Absolute. Larry was great at everything on the court outside of man to man defense.

 

[solarius49]

there isn't one that's been anywhere close to his skill level so that's not a great argument though

Absolute skill or relative skill to their competition level?

Larry was GREAT at everything on the offensive end of the floor. He was an excellent shooter, as well as an excellent passer and excellent post player. I think he would have been great in any era, the same way Duncan would have been great because of his skill level. Athleticism is overrated in the presence of outstanding fundamentals

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Absolute. Larry was great at everything on the court outside of man to man defense.

Right. But what I am saying is there isn't as much tolerence for someone like Bird in today's game. His overall skill-level at the SF position might not be honed because he can't defend anyone at all.

Like I said, name me a SF in the last 20 years that couldn't play man-to-man defense at all that has FLOURISHED in the NBA.

And please don't hit me with the famous, "Bird was an underrated defender" comeback that folks like to use.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Larry was GREAT at everything on the offensive end of the floor. He was an excellent shooter, as well as an excellent passer and excellent post player. I think he would have been great in any era, the same way Duncan would have been great because of his skill level. Athleticism is overrated in the presence of outstanding fundamentals

Stop bringing up post players to support your point.

I am speaking of SF's here man.

 

[jsindaa]

Right. But what I am saying is there isn't as much tolerence for someone like Bird in today's game. His overall skill-level at the SF position might not be honed because he can't defend anyone at all.

Like I said, name me a SF in the last 20 years that couldn't play man-to-man defense at all that has FLOURISHED in the NBA.

And please don't hit me with the famous, "Bird was an underrated defender" comeback that folks like to use. [/quote

Lol. I don't disagree with that but that's a complete sight to everything else he did. It's not like Bird was the worst defender of all time. He wasn't the best for sure but he still got over a steal and a half a game along with a block. He was a good team defender and excellent at everything else. He'd still be great.

 

[dsquare]

I'll put like this about Larry Bird, its doesn't matter what era you play in 60's, 70's, 80's etc. greatness is greatness and Larry Bird is a truly great player, and would be in any era.