Congress clears historic health care bill...

[100proof]

Originally Posted by Friendliest Ghost

Originally Posted by 100PROOF

I have yet to see a group of minorities protesting HCR, every anti HCR rally looks like a bunch of white people scared they are gonna get taxed to pay for minorities to go to the doctor.

Pass the damn bill

Your demonizing people that disagree with you, just as anti-war protesters were called unpatriotic and anti-American. You should be proud of yourself. 

http://www.youtube.com/v/6ik4f1dRbP8&hl=en_US&fs=1&http://www.youtube.com/v/6ik4f1dRbP8&hl=en_US&fs=1&

And this was just yesterday...

Rep. Devin Nunes (R-Calif.) came to the defense of the racists and bigots who shouted slurs at members of Congress Saturday. The Tea Party protesters shouted the ‘n’ word at African American members of Congress the ‘f’ word at an openly gay member.

Rather than condemn the anachronistic behavior, Nunes blamed the Democrats, saying that they make people do and say crazy things with their tyrannical behavior.
I stand by my statement.

 

[utvol23]

Although unprecedented in the U.S., other governments have already exercised such powers over their citizens. Canada's Medicare program arrogantly asserts that Canadians get "medically necessary services," yet the facts show Canadians endure scandalously long wait times and a dangerous lack of access to modern diagnostic and treatment-related technologies, ultimately costing lives.

British citizens suffer under the rule of their National Health Service, directed by their House of Commons Task Force, which recommended "techniques for determining the cost-effectiveness of new technologies" with "nationally approved standards for the commissioning of new technologies." Western European nations, where government dictates drug prices to the end result of pitifully reduced innovation, have less access to new cancer-curing drugs, so, consequently, patients die earlier from those diseases when compared to the U.S. There is no mystery here--it has been proved the world over that when government dictates prices on services, those services become unavailable. And when bureaucrats dictate medical care, it is the patient who suffers most. Directly or indirectly, choice becomes limited, and health care becomes rationed.

 

[essential1]

By the way do you even know what the wait times are for.......


They are for non-emergency things...You know things that don't need to be seen right away...

So you're complaining about waiting a week maybe 2 for things non life threatening when the upside is everyone gets treatment..

CANADA LIFE EXPECTANCY 80
U.S. LIFE EXPECTANCY 78

 

[friendliest ghost]

Originally Posted by 100PROOF

Originally Posted by Friendliest Ghost

Originally Posted by 100PROOF

I have yet to see a group of minorities protesting HCR, every anti HCR rally looks like a bunch of white people scared they are gonna get taxed to pay for minorities to go to the doctor.

Pass the damn bill

Your demonizing people that disagree with you, just as anti-war protesters were called unpatriotic and anti-American. You should be proud of yourself.�

http://www.youtube.com/v/6ik4f1dRbP8&hl=en_US&fs=1&http://www.youtube.com/v/6ik4f1dRbP8&hl=en_US&fs=1&

And this was just yesterday...

Rep. Devin Nunes (R-Calif.) came to the defense of the racists and bigots who shouted slurs at members of Congress Saturday. The Tea Party protesters shouted the ‘n’ word at African American members of Congress the ‘f’ word at an openly gay member.

Rather than condemn the anachronistic behavior, Nunes blamed the Democrats, saying that they make people do and say crazy things with their tyrannical behavior.

I stand by my statement.



Because every single person that disagrees with this ludicrous proposal is a member of the Tea Party? I feel sorry for you. Out of curiosity, what conservative writers do you read? Glenn Beck, I'd reckon.

I'm not so good with numbers, but isn't the US population a TEENSY bit bigger than Canada and the UK?

 

[shaunhillftw49]

That week or two>Letting more people get medical attention.

 

[utvol23]

Now, I'd like to call on Dr. Tom Coburn who's been a practicing physician for many years, to address the cost-containment issue.

COBURN: Thank you.

Well, Mr. President, thanks for having us do this. I think today's going to be enlightening.
ad_icon

The first thing I would do is put out a caution to us because what I see the Congress doing and what I saw this last year is us actually performing bad medicine. And that is that we get stuck in the idea of treating the symptom rather than treating the disease.

And whether you go to Harvard or whether you go to Thomson Reuters, here's -- there are some facts we know about health care in America. And the facts we know is one out of every three dollars that gets spent doesn't help anybody get well and doesn't prevent anybody from getting sick.

The second thing we know is, from the Congressional Research Service, that most of the mal-drivers (ph) today in health care come from government rules and regulations. The government now directs over 60 percent of the health care in this country. And if throwing money at it and creating new government programs could solve it, we wouldn't be sitting here today because we've done all that. It hadn't worked. So what I thought we ought to do is maybe talk about why does it cost so much, because the thing that keeps people from getting access to care in our country is cost.

You mentioned Malia and Sasha. The fact is, is with young kids going to the E.R., whether they have meningitis or asthma, they're going to get treated in this country. But they may get labeled with a preexisting illness after that. And that's another thing I'd be happy to talk about at a later time.

But the fact is, is we know how to treat acute asthma. What we don't do a good job of is preventing children from getting acute asthma. We don't do the good job of prevention.

So when you break down the costs, what we know is 33 percent of the costs in health care shouldn't be there.

And how do we go about doing that? And what are the components of that cost? And when you look at, when it's studied, if you look at what Malcolm Sparrow from Harvard says, he says 20 percent of the cost of federal government health care is fraud. That's his number.

If you look at Thomson Reuters, when they look at all of this, they say at least 15 percent of government-run health care is fraud.

Well, when you look at the total amount of health care that's government run, you know, you're talking $150 billion a year.

So tomorrow, if we got together and fixed fraud, we could cut health care 7.5 percent tomorrow for people in this country.

So what we ought to do is do the Willie Sutton thing. We ought to go for where the money is.

What's the other area? What we do know -- and I'm guilty of this, Dr. Barrasso's guilty of it, Dr. Boustany is guilty of it -- is a large portion of the tests we order every day aren't for patients. They're for doctors. And the reason they're there is because we are risk averse to the tort system and extortion system that's out there today in health care.

And there are a lot of ways to fix that. But I just went through last night, if you add up what Thomson Reuters, which looked at all the studies that have been done and combined them in, they say between $625 billion and $850 billion a year of health care dollars are wasted.

So it seems to me if cost is the number one thing that's keeping people from getting care, then the efforts of us, as we go after cost, ought to be to go to those areas where the cost is wasted.

And there's a philosophical difference in how we do that. One wants more government-centered approach to that. I would personally prefer a more patient-centered, market-orient approach to that. But nevertheless, there's where we can come together, just on those two areas, where we could cut costs 15 percent tomorrow. And that's for everybody in the country.

What would -- what would happen to access in this country if tomorrow everybody's health care costs went down 15 percent? Access would markedly increase.

So what I would hope we would do is that we would go back and concentrate on the areas that have the biggest pot of gold for us. And the biggest pot of gold is, is we don't incentivize prevention. We don't pay rewards for great management of chronic disease. We have a system throughout the country where we're encouraging lawsuits that aren't productive for the country, and what they actually do is cause the cost of health care to go through the roof.

We also know there's some other real things that we ought to address. There are conflict of interests within the medical field. There's nothing wrong with addressing those and taking those off (ph).

We know that we do not -- we absolutely do not incentivize prevention. And I'm not talking about creating walking paths. I'm talking about paying people who actually do a good job to do prevention.

Talking about changing the school lunch programs where it meets the needs, nutritional needs of Americans. Changing the food stamp program where it incentivize people to eat the right things, not the wrong things. We actually create more diabetes through the food stamp program and the school lunch program than probably any other thing, because we're not feeding a -- offering and incentivizing a great response.

COBURN: So I think if -- I think it's great that we're coming together. But the gold is in where's the cost excesses? And what I would hope we would do is we would look at that and say, How do we come together and actually achieve a reduction in the extortion that goes on in this country in terms of medical malpractice? And there's lots of ways to do that without us mandating states to do that.

How do we do that in terms of creating an elimination of fraud?

You know, when you compare the private sector fraud rates, it's 1 percent compared to Medicare and Medicaid. You know, there's estimates that there's $15 billion worth of fraud in Medicaid a year in New York City alone.

So we haven't attacked that. We haven't gone where the money is. And my hope would be that we would look at where the money is. And if truly it's accurate -- and I don't know many people that will disagree that $1 in $3 doesn't help somebody get well and doesn't prevent it, then we ought to be going for that $1 in $3.

And we ought to do it by not creating a whole bunch of new government programs, but by creating an incentive to reward people. In your new bill you have good fraud programs, but you lack the biggest thing to do. The biggest thing on fraud is to have undercover patients so that people know we're checking on whether or not this is a legitimate bill. And you don't know who's an undercover patient and who's not. And all of a sudden you start changing your attitude of whether or not you're going to milk Medicare or you're going to milk Medicaid.

REID (?): Mr. President, if I could just say, I'm not an expert on much, but I am filibusters. And we've got 40 members of Congress here.

OBAMA: Tom, you made some powerful points. You want to just wrap up real quick?

COBURN: No, I'll just finish with that is $1 out of $3 not helping everybody, we ought to go for where it is.

OBAMA: Well, Tom, I appreciate what you said. I think we're going to have Steny Hoyer go next. I just want to make this quick point: Every good idea that we've heard about reducing fraud and abuse in the Medicare and Medicaid system, we've adopted in our legislation.

So that's an example of where we agree. We want to eliminate fraud and abuse within the government systems.

Let's recognize, though, that those savings in the government systems, which will help taxpayers and allow us to do more, doesn't account for the rising costs in the private marketplace.

Now, the private marketplace, you mentioned the issue of medical malpractice and, you know, frivolous lawsuits. And I -- as you indicated, these are areas where Secretary Sebelius has already begun to try to give states some incentives to do that.

On the prevention side, there's a whole host of provisions inside the legislation that's been passed by the House and Senate, and I think Steny will talk about it.

So we've identified some areas we agree on. And then the question just is does that help the average family in the individual market who potentially can get costs.

But, Steny, why don't you...

COBURN: Let me just respond to one thing. You get cost shifted every penny that gets wasted on Medicare.

OBAMA: Absolutely.

COBURN: And that gets cost shifted to the private sector. So if, in fact, we're wasting...

OBAMA: It would help.

COBURN: ... in the public sector, we're shifting it to the private sector.

OBAMA: You and I agree.

 

[utvol23]

Originally Posted by Essential1

By the way do you even know what the wait times are for.......


They are for non-emergency things...You know things that don't need to be seen right away...

So you're complaining about waiting a week maybe 2 for things non life threatening when the upside is everyone gets treatment..

CANADA LIFE EXPECTANCY 80
U.S. LIFE EXPECTANCY 78

I knew you would quote that Life Expectancy but that has alot more to do with our way of life etc than to do with health care.

Also its not a week or two in many cases its months to a year that you are waiting. Tell that to someone who needs a knee or hip replacement.

 

[jehlers02]

Originally Posted by HAM CITY

Originally Posted by Jehlers02

We will be so F'd if this passes, idk if some of you guys realize that "Free" health care isn't really free since we must pay for it with taxes. The expenses for health care would have to be paid for with higher taxes or spending cuts in other areas such as defense, education, etc. And if they tax the rich more and the poor less? Thats just 100% communist bull. The people who are getting payed that much worked for it, why does the money come out of their pocket to help the poor when they slacked their whole life. I'm not biased in anyway, i'm an 18 year old going off to college next year and my motivation to do well is to make money, i'll be damned if i work hard get a good job just to give all my money away. If im gonna do that why should i work hard?

Universal Health Care is a terrible idea.

The mindset of a privileged and sheltered individual. 

Please tell me how so, what makes me different from anyone else? Go in more detail with privileged and sheltered.

 

[jayamazin]

The Japan system is a great system. They have a nationalized system but also private systems that compete along with each other. Their employers don't burden the cost of healthcare also.

 

[100proof]

Originally Posted by Friendliest Ghost

Originally Posted by 100PROOF

Originally Posted by Friendliest Ghost

Originally Posted by 100PROOF

I have yet to see a group of minorities protesting HCR, every anti HCR rally looks like a bunch of white people scared they are gonna get taxed to pay for minorities to go to the doctor.

Pass the damn bill

Your demonizing people that disagree with you, just as anti-war protesters were called unpatriotic and anti-American. You should be proud of yourself.�

http://www.youtube.com/v/6ik4f1dRbP8&hl=en_US&fs=1&http://www.youtube.com/v/6ik4f1dRbP8&hl=en_US&fs=1& http://www.youtube.com/v/6ik4f1dRbP8&hl=en_US&fs=1&http://www.youtube.com/v/6ik4f1dRbP8&hl=en_US&fs=1&

And this was just yesterday...

Rep. Devin Nunes (R-Calif.) came to the defense of the racists and bigots who shouted slurs at members of Congress Saturday. The Tea Party protesters shouted the ‘n’ word at African American members of Congress the ‘f’ word at an openly gay member.

Rather than condemn the anachronistic behavior, Nunes blamed the Democrats, saying that they make people do and say crazy things with their tyrannical behavior.

I stand by my statement.

Because every single person that disagrees with this ludicrous proposal is a member of the Tea Party? I feel sorry for you. Out of curiosity, what conservative writers do you read? Glenn Beck, I'd reckon.

I'm not so good with numbers, but isn't the US population a TEENSY bit bigger than Canada and the UK?


Tell you what show me a civil protest of HCR thats all I ask. The only people I've seen protesting are always pissed off white people screaming about taxes and who the taxes are gonna pay for. If these people could formulate an argument other then shouting communist or other code words then I might be inclined to look deeper into their side of thinking but they come off looking like sheep spoon fed talking points from limbaugh, beck, palin, and others.

 

[utvol23]

Originally Posted by Essential1

Originally Posted by UTVOL23

I can quote info too in BIG BOLD letters. Now tell me the 90% I lied about and also how you deal with this on a daily basis.

daily basis.. I read on it....

But maybe you should listen to this guy.... He knows more about both sides (politics & health care) than you do

Congrats you read about it, while I live it.

 

[friendliest ghost]

^ Thanks for proving my point. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. You look for the radicals and as such that's all you see. And despite the literally hundreds of conservative writers that are presenting interesting, original, logical, and honest critiques of ObamaCare, you group anything that doesn't move in lockstep with the administration as racist, xenophobic, and, of special relevance to you, IGNORANT.

 

[jinkazama]

[h1]

[h1]Doctors: Malpractice Costs the Biggest Money-Saver in Tort Reform [/h1]
UTVOL can you provide a link to this story?  You and I have debated tort reform on this board before but some of the things stated in your article I'd like to learn more about.  While I think the impact of tort reform will be the equivalent of a raindrop in the ocean, I am always open to hearing more about a differing opinion.  Here's a different view I wrote up for my boss about 3 weeks ago:




Tort reform will do little to curb healthcare spending or reduce the practice of defensive medicine.  The First attachment is a 2009 Letter from the non-partisan, independent congressional Budget office to Senator Orin Hatch that details the projected effects of Tort Reform.  The Letter is very informative and concludes that Tort Reform will reduce national healthcare spending by .5% (bottom of page 3).

 [url=http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/106xx/doc10641/10-09-Tort_Reform.pdf]http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc...41/10-09-Tort_Reform.pdf[/url]

 The second link is yet another CBO analysis that deals with the effect of tort reform on defensive medicince (see the section that says Effects on Defensive Medicine) the science is simply not there that demonstrates that physicians would change the way they practice in any real way.

[URL]http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=4968&type=0[/url]

 A small 1992 Harvard study found that in New York state of 31,000 patient records audited 280 patients were identified as being injured by medical negligence; 8 filed malpractice claims.

 [URL]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2057025[/url]

 Tort reform would be the equivalent to a rain drop falling in the ocean.  It is not worth a .5% savings in healthcare costs or a small reduction in defensive medicine to limit what someone who has truly been injured negligently in our healthcare system can get in restitution.  If I go in for an appendectomy and get my leg amputated I just don’t think saying, “okay Mr. Smith here’s 50,000 now run along

[/h1]

 

[100proof]

Originally Posted by Friendliest Ghost

^ Thanks for proving my point. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. You look for the radicals and as such that's all you see. And despite the hundreds of conservative writers that are presenting interesting, original, logical, and honest critiques of ObamaCare, you group anything that doesn't move in lockstep with the administration as racist, xenophobic, and, of special relevance to you, IGNORANCE.

Again, I showed you the people I'm talking about. Now show me the people you are talking about. I have yet to see any proof that disproves my point.

 

[utvol23]

Here is the link: From what you would call a biased source im sure but the facts arent.

http://www.foxnews.com/po...money-saver-tort-reform/

Also I never said that tort reform is the absolute fix but the fact that there is nothing to even address it is outrageous. Everyday I see my fellow physicians order studies that are unnecessary based on history and physical etc but choose to get them just in case just to be sure.
The way physicians practice will also not be immediately changed if tort reform is instituted. It will take awhile to reverse the cover you butt way of practicing medicine that goes on now as it has been occurring for so long.

 

[teamjordan79]

Originally Posted by CallHimAR

Originally Posted by TeamJordan79

Originally Posted by CallHimAR

at this point, I am against anything the gov't is trying to push at us but thats just me i dunno

Seriously. That is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

The funniest part of all of this is people support the measures that are being proposed in the bill when asked if they would like to see each one separate, but when asked about the health care bill itself for some odd reason they are strongly opposed. People in this country don't even know what they're rallying against anymore.

That video shows just how idiotic so many people here are. What is wrong with people? Where is behavior like that condoned? We've become so selfish as people from living in America we don't want to give back to anyone, so we ridicule those who can't help themselves because they're sick. Unbelievable.

my bad but can u give cliffnotes on this bill? what exactly are they proposing to do with healthcare?

Both the House and Senate versions of health insurance reform rest upon the following building blocks:

• Insurance reforms to protect consumers from insurance companyworst-practices – like denying coverage based on pre-existingconditions, capping total coverage, and dropping or watering downcoverage when you get sick and need it most
• Consumerprotections that will restrict how much of your premium dollarsinsurance companies can spend on marketing, profits, and salaries
• Creation of a health exchange to increase consumer choice and guarantee coverage
• Affordable health options, with subsidies for working families and a hardship waiver
• Tax credits to help small businesses afford coverage
• Making preventive care completely free – with no co-payments or deductibles
• Lowering the cost of health care for our seniors
• Improving the quality and extending the life of Medicare
• Ensuring that reform is not only fully paid for, but actually significantly reduces the federal deficit

How
Details of Obama's Health Care Plan

www.healthreform.gov/

There are probably one hundred other places you can go as well, just take the four seconds to Google.

Also, if you're going to raise taxes on anyone it should be the rich. The more that you make the more you should pay in taxes.



with all the things u posted....i mean who would be against that. what are the cons though?

 

[daytona 5000]

Originally Posted by Jehlers02

Originally Posted by HAM CITY

Originally Posted by Jehlers02

We will be so F'd if this passes, idk if some of you guys realize that "Free" health care isn't really free since we must pay for it with taxes. The expenses for health care would have to be paid for with higher taxes or spending cuts in other areas such as defense, education, etc. And if they tax the rich more and the poor less? Thats just 100% communist bull. The people who are getting payed that much worked for it, why does the money come out of their pocket to help the poor when they slacked their whole life. I'm not biased in anyway, i'm an 18 year old going off to college next year and my motivation to do well is to make money, i'll be damned if i work hard get a good job just to give all my money away. If im gonna do that why should i work hard?

Universal Health Care is a terrible idea.

The mindset of a privileged and sheltered individual. 

Please tell me how so, what makes me different from anyone else? Go in more detail with privileged and sheltered.

The fact that you can make a callous statement such as lower income people "slacked their whole life". You don't know their life or their situation.

 

[duba169]

Originally Posted by DAYTONA 5000

Originally Posted by Jehlers02

Originally Posted by HAM CITY

Originally Posted by Jehlers02

We will be so F'd if this passes, idk if some of you guys realize that "Free" health care isn't really free since we must pay for it with taxes. The expenses for health care would have to be paid for with higher taxes or spending cuts in other areas such as defense, education, etc. And if they tax the rich more and the poor less? Thats just 100% communist bull. The people who are getting payed that much worked for it, why does the money come out of their pocket to help the poor when they slacked their whole life. I'm not biased in anyway, i'm an 18 year old going off to college next year and my motivation to do well is to make money, i'll be damned if i work hard get a good job just to give all my money away. If im gonna do that why should i work hard?

Universal Health Care is a terrible idea.

The mindset of a privileged and sheltered individual. 

Please tell me how so, what makes me different from anyone else? Go in more detail with privileged and sheltered.

The fact that you can make a callous statement such as lower income people "slacked their whole life". You don't know their life or their situation.

plus most wealthy people are born into it. that's a myth that every rich person worked hard. wealth gets handed down from generation to generation. one example, a bunch of wealthy slave owners used their money to invest in other fields once slavery became illegal. did those people necessarily work hard? no. they had money to invest and they handed it down

what about someone who creates their own business and it becomes a fortune 500 company. okay yes, that man worked very hard. but theres a great chance that his grandson won't have a hard day of work for his entire life because he was born into the wealth. .

 

[jehlers02]

Originally Posted by DubA169

Originally Posted by DAYTONA 5000

Originally Posted by Jehlers02

Originally Posted by HAM CITY

Originally Posted by Jehlers02

We will be so F'd if this passes, idk if some of you guys realize that "Free" health care isn't really free since we must pay for it with taxes. The expenses for health care would have to be paid for with higher taxes or spending cuts in other areas such as defense, education, etc. And if they tax the rich more and the poor less? Thats just 100% communist bull. The people who are getting payed that much worked for it, why does the money come out of their pocket to help the poor when they slacked their whole life. I'm not biased in anyway, i'm an 18 year old going off to college next year and my motivation to do well is to make money, i'll be damned if i work hard get a good job just to give all my money away. If im gonna do that why should i work hard?

Universal Health Care is a terrible idea.

The mindset of a privileged and sheltered individual. 

Please tell me how so, what makes me different from anyone else? Go in more detail with privileged and sheltered.

The fact that you can make a callous statement such as lower income people "slacked their whole life". You don't know their life or their situation.

plus most wealthy people are born into it. that's a myth that every rich person worked hard. wealth gets handed down from generation to generation. one example, a bunch of wealthy slave owners used their money to invest in other fields once slavery became illegal. did those people necessarily work hard? no. they had money to invest and they handed it down

what about someone who creates their own business and it becomes a fortune 500 company. okay yes, that man worked very hard. but theres a great chance that his grandson won't have a hard day of work for his entire life because he was born into the wealth. .

Looking at people's individual situations there is a very small percent of which someone has worked hard their whole life and is still poor.
America is a working country, you go to school, you do well, you get a job to pay for college like im doing right now, if you work hard in college and do your work you will not be living on the streets.

This doesnt pertain to only people who are loaded millionaires, this has to do with the middle class too.

If your living on the streets you messed up somehwere, either that or you didnt take the iniative to do anything at a young age.

 

[superantigen]

In all seriousness, every time I read stuff to the tune of "I worked hard to get to where I am..." I laugh a bit inside; especially considering there's a thread somewhere on page 1-4 where individuals have admitted to cheating in school to get the grades they would have otherwise not have received...

"Worked hard..."...y'all kill me sometimes...

...

 

 

[mondaynightraw]

Originally Posted by Jehlers02

Originally Posted by DubA169

Originally Posted by DAYTONA 5000

Originally Posted by Jehlers02

Originally Posted by HAM CITY

Originally Posted by Jehlers02

We will be so F'd if this passes, idk if some of you guys realize that "Free" health care isn't really free since we must pay for it with taxes. The expenses for health care would have to be paid for with higher taxes or spending cuts in other areas such as defense, education, etc. And if they tax the rich more and the poor less? Thats just 100% communist bull. The people who are getting payed that much worked for it, why does the money come out of their pocket to help the poor when they slacked their whole life. I'm not biased in anyway, i'm an 18 year old going off to college next year and my motivation to do well is to make money, i'll be damned if i work hard get a good job just to give all my money away. If im gonna do that why should i work hard?

Universal Health Care is a terrible idea.

The mindset of a privileged and sheltered individual. 

Please tell me how so, what makes me different from anyone else? Go in more detail with privileged and sheltered.

The fact that you can make a callous statement such as lower income people "slacked their whole life". You don't know their life or their situation.

plus most wealthy people are born into it. that's a myth that every rich person worked hard. wealth gets handed down from generation to generation. one example, a bunch of wealthy slave owners used their money to invest in other fields once slavery became illegal. did those people necessarily work hard? no. they had money to invest and they handed it down

what about someone who creates their own business and it becomes a fortune 500 company. okay yes, that man worked very hard. but theres a great chance that his grandson won't have a hard day of work for his entire life because he was born into the wealth. .

America is a working country, you go to school, you do well, you get a job to pay for college like im doing right now, if you work hard in college and do your work you will not be living on the streets.

word? it's that simple?

SHUT YOUR ### UP

 

[kicktionair]

Originally Posted by mondaynightraw

Originally Posted by Jehlers02

Originally Posted by DubA169

Originally Posted by DAYTONA 5000

Originally Posted by Jehlers02

Originally Posted by HAM CITY

Originally Posted by Jehlers02

We will be so F'd if this passes, idk if some of you guys realize that "Free" health care isn't really free since we must pay for it with taxes. The expenses for health care would have to be paid for with higher taxes or spending cuts in other areas such as defense, education, etc. And if they tax the rich more and the poor less? Thats just 100% communist bull. The people who are getting payed that much worked for it, why does the money come out of their pocket to help the poor when they slacked their whole life. I'm not biased in anyway, i'm an 18 year old going off to college next year and my motivation to do well is to make money, i'll be damned if i work hard get a good job just to give all my money away. If im gonna do that why should i work hard?

Universal Health Care is a terrible idea.

The mindset of a privileged and sheltered individual. 

Please tell me how so, what makes me different from anyone else? Go in more detail with privileged and sheltered.

The fact that you can make a callous statement such as lower income people "slacked their whole life". You don't know their life or their situation.

plus most wealthy people are born into it. that's a myth that every rich person worked hard. wealth gets handed down from generation to generation. one example, a bunch of wealthy slave owners used their money to invest in other fields once slavery became illegal. did those people necessarily work hard? no. they had money to invest and they handed it down

what about someone who creates their own business and it becomes a fortune 500 company. okay yes, that man worked very hard. but theres a great chance that his grandson won't have a hard day of work for his entire life because he was born into the wealth. .

America is a working country, you go to school, you do well, you get a job to pay for college like im doing right now, if you work hard in college and do your work you will not be living on the streets.

word? it's that simple?

SHUT YOUR ### UP

Wait until dude grows past his teenage years and life rams it from behind hard

just because you "think" your working hard and all that does not mean it comes simple to the rest of America. Are you paying for college out of your OWN pocket? Living expenses and all that?

Jehlers02 you are a lame

 

[agentarenas]

Originally Posted by Jehlers02

Originally Posted by DubA169

Originally Posted by DAYTONA 5000

Originally Posted by Jehlers02

Originally Posted by HAM CITY

Originally Posted by Jehlers02

We will be so F'd if this passes, idk if some of you guys realize that "Free" health care isn't really free since we must pay for it with taxes. The expenses for health care would have to be paid for with higher taxes or spending cuts in other areas such as defense, education, etc. And if they tax the rich more and the poor less? Thats just 100% communist bull. The people who are getting payed that much worked for it, why does the money come out of their pocket to help the poor when they slacked their whole life. I'm not biased in anyway, i'm an 18 year old going off to college next year and my motivation to do well is to make money, i'll be damned if i work hard get a good job just to give all my money away. If im gonna do that why should i work hard?

Universal Health Care is a terrible idea.

The mindset of a privileged and sheltered individual. 

Please tell me how so, what makes me different from anyone else? Go in more detail with privileged and sheltered.

The fact that you can make a callous statement such as lower income people "slacked their whole life". You don't know their life or their situation.

plus most wealthy people are born into it. that's a myth that every rich person worked hard. wealth gets handed down from generation to generation. one example, a bunch of wealthy slave owners used their money to invest in other fields once slavery became illegal. did those people necessarily work hard? no. they had money to invest and they handed it down

what about someone who creates their own business and it becomes a fortune 500 company. okay yes, that man worked very hard. but theres a great chance that his grandson won't have a hard day of work for his entire life because he was born into the wealth. .

Looking at people's individual situations there is a very small percent of which someone has worked hard their whole life and is still poor.
America is a working country, you go to school, you do well, you get a job to pay for college like im doing right now, if you work hard in college and do your work you will not be living on the streets.

This doesnt pertain to only people who are loaded millionaires, this has to do with the middle class too.

If your living on the streets you messed up somehwere, either that or you didnt take the iniative to do anything at a young age.

Wrong. Your response itself shows how you think, and that says enough. Your mentality wont allow you to relate to the "slackers" you criticize. We've established that people born into wealth have it easier than everyone else, right? Theres many types of wealth. Wealth is defined as "an abundance or profusion of anything; plentiful amount". Material wealth isn't all that matters. It just happens to be the type of wealth thats most directly correlated to a comfortable, "successful" lifestyle within society. Look at it this way. You're born into a broken family, without enough money to live comfortably. Ok, thats one type of wealth thats missing, makes sense. Someone born into a bad area, without a strong family support system is "poor" in a totally different way. They dont have moral or mental wealth. You think of college as something that isnt an option right? Its just a rung up the ladder of so called success. That was a mindset instilled into you by either your parents or your environment. You were WEALTHY in that regard. You had a positive influence pushed upon you your entire childhood. Many people don't grow up in that sort of situation. People don't know better because they have no reason to.  Intellectual wealth can come from our parents, our school systems, our teachers. Mental wealth can come from the resources within our neighborhoods or our connections. Material wealth isn't the only thing that influences how we grow up.

 

[bittersweet]

Originally Posted by HAM CITY

Originally Posted by Jehlers02

We will be so F'd if this passes, idk if some of you guys realize that "Free" health care isn't really free since we must pay for it with taxes. The expenses for health care would have to be paid for with higher taxes or spending cuts in other areas such as defense, education, etc. And if they tax the rich more and the poor less? Thats just 100% communist bull. The people who are getting payed that much worked for it, why does the money come out of their pocket to help the poor when they slacked their whole life. I'm not biased in anyway, i'm an 18 year old going off to college next year and my motivation to do well is to make money, i'll be damned if i work hard get a good job just to give all my money away. If im gonna do that why should i work hard?

Universal Health Care is a terrible idea.

The mindset of a privileged and sheltered individual. 

It's pretty sad too.

Jehlers, what if RIGHT NOW, you got into a life-threatening car accident? And you didn't have any way to pay for it?

RIGHT NOW, they wanted you to pay $7000 out of pocket before they perform surgery on you.

You can really sit here and say that's right/ethical? That selfish people that "work for things", can't shell out an extra couple dollars that they use to get extra whipped cream on their Starbucks Latte's to help someone's LIFE?

That's sad if you think that's OKAY, and I'm glad I don't think that way.

 

[callhimar]

Well, I'm glad to see that this turned out to be a really productive thread with a lot of facts being presented. Oh wait...


I cannot stand the argument about government not being able to run anything effectively. It's simply ridiculous. Do you have clean water coming out of your shower and faucets at home? Who controls that and makes sure its clean? Oh, the government.

Did you go to school for free up until college? (I agree that city and state colleges should be free as well, in time.) Who pays for these things? The government.

Is our military not the most advanced and effective in the world? Who runs it?

Who gives out financial aid to low income families who want to send their children to college?

Federal funds pay for 80% of the basic science research in thiscountry, through laboratory facilities in universities and ingovernment agencies such as the National Institutes for Health. Forthis reason, the government deserves a great deal of credit for theimportant scientific and technological breakthroughs produced by theseefforts. In just one area – biomedical science – basic research hasprovided the foundation to develop new diagnostic technologies, such asnuclear magnetic resonance machines, and new treatments for cancer,diabetes, and many other diseases. It is revealing that nearly half ofthe most important medical treatments in the field ofcardiovascular-pulmonary medicine have their origins in basic researchattempting to unravel the mysteries of the lungs, heart, and muscles –work done by scientists not working in this specific disease area.
I could keep going but I don't want to waste anymore time on this ridiculous argument.

Also, there is a GREAT DEAL of heresy and propaganda being spewed in this thread quite frankly. I can't understand why people are fighting AGAINST a persons right to health care. It's absolutely mind boggling. Maybe if we didn't spend billions on defense and wars that never needed to be fought in the first place we'd actually be able to provide care to all Americans, and possibly free education through college. However our priorities are a bit out of line, but that isn't to say that the government won't be able to run health care, because again this is a MAJOR problem in America. It cannot be allowed to fail.