Do people really believe in Angels?

[brainwashed21]

exactly.. in your mind.. its all a mind state.. we see wat we want. you a smart dude but u cant understand wat u cant see! if u came nd told my mom god doesnt exist, even tho in her world its worked, id punch you in the face.. like i said its all a mindstate. if plutos a planet or not, what does it matter? i cant see it or feel it... what exactly did we learn from it? nothing.. your left as cold nd hopeless as the planet.. water on mars? cool.. but so what? is that making my life better? more positive? come on man.. and by all means i support science, learning.. but it doesnt all have a relevance to my mind state or principles.. understand that!

 

[Master Zik]

You can't say I'm limited in my thinking because you choose to give a word several definitions whether they fit or not. In fact you come off quite lazy to do that instead of using the appropriate word for what you mean and what you're trying to express. It seems you're the one limited in that regard.

Regardless of that what you say of hope and humanity is only your subjective opinion so far from the facts of history and philosophy over time that it couldn't be father from the truth.

You know what? All that really matters is that the statement I made, was understood by the person I directed it to. So perhaps if I need to address you any further, I'll simply reference Dr. Seuss on your behalf.

Have a great one.

Weakly veiled insults and condescending doesn't keep you from being wrong. With all these tangent responses you can not or haven't even bothered to attempt to extrapolate your senseless opinion. That's what I know.

The way you calling it the more you hate me the more you hate yourself and your GOD. According to what you belief w/e I label myself is irrelevant, right? or are your beliefs clearly arbitrary and random that could easily be different?
Son you talking about initiations? Initiation was before birth. You not even adhering to what you believe in. False prophet type of ******.

what the **** are you talking about?

first of all I don't hate you, I don't even know you. Second of all.....everybody has a soul and is part and parcel of GOD is the point that I made. that even goes for the devil and all of his **** *** followers who attack righteousness and deny the creator of all there is.

...but of course like a fool your going to try and unilaterally apply this knowledge to your self without really being in understanding or knowledge

you've been arguing against the almighty in all of these types of threads....now you wanna try and turn the tables like your slick....

sit your *** down.

Your fear is embarrassing.

Whether it's hate or your unprovoked insults, you need to do some self-reflection. Your on logic doesn't even jive with the crap you're trying to direct towards me and others. That's not turning the tables, that's the truth.

Do the math son.

 

[brainwashed21]

intuition.. thats a beginning in itself.. can science deny it started from that?

 

[futuremd]

exactly.. in your mind.. its all a mind state.. we see wat we want. you a smart dude but u cant understand wat u cant see!

Ironically, its you claiming to do so when you propose things you can't support.

 if u came nd told my mom god doesnt exist, even tho in her world its worked, id punch you in the face..

So?

Does that mean anything to me?

That your mother can't be bothered to assess the reality of her life? 

Granted, I probably wouldn't get around to doing so, but your actions would be completely irrational. 

like i said its all a mindstate. if plutos a planet or not, what does it matter? i cant see it or feel it... what exactly did we learn from it?

Yeah. 

Learning about space is useless, right? I guess we've gotten NOTHING from there. 

 nothing.. your left as cold nd hopeless as the planet.. water on mars? cool.. but so what?

Resources son.

Resources.

But yeah.

Learning about other planets? Useless. Nevermind all the technology we invented just to get there. 

 is that making my life better? more positive? come on man.. and by all means i support science, learning.. but it doesnt all have a relevance to my mind state or principles.. understand that!

You support learning and science...just not...learning and science. 

 

[futuremd]

intuition.. thats a beginning in itself.. can science deny it started from that?

deny what started from what? 

Phrase this question better. 

 

[brainwashed21]

irrational maybe... but why does only your reality count? a life based on fact nd proof is a boring life

 

[Master Zik]

irrational maybe... but why does only your reality count? a life based on fact nd proof is a boring life

This is not true. If you live your life based off of facts and proof and have a boring life you're just a boring person.

 

[brainwashed21]

bro ill be dead before something done in space makes anything better.. yea we might learn but it wont benefit me until all your test nd theorys work themselves out  lol.. i support learning without the restrictions of just one view point. can science prove intuition?

 

[brainwashed21]

masterzik your right.. but if i need proof and facts for every little thing, i feel like im really lookin past what life is really about..

 

[smangalang]

Well see theres this thing call "tests"

And when you make a claim, we can "test" what you assert to see if its true.

I find it funny that you all can look a physics book as just "someones ideas" and not realize that you can "test" whats actually present there.

But yeah. How dare those damn dirty scientists try to compile a book of provable, and verifiable observations about the natural world. I KNOW MORE THAN THEM! 

I encourage everyone to "find their way"...but making vapid assertions isn't the way to go about it.

We all can learn from each other...but if what you put forth isn't supported by any sort of new discovery that you claim to have made...then we're back to square one.

If you care so much about asserting something new that people haven't discovered, you should actually care to validate your claim. 

Thats not entirely true either. Most of the most GROUNDBREAKING revelations were done before most people are 30 only because thats when you're you're smartest and sharpest. Of course many discoveries have been made by individuals much older, since then, who are largely limited by the rush to accumulate the necessary credentials first and then going forth to make discoveries.

Personal preference?

The ratio and distribution of certain tastebud receptors present in your unique genetics?

Thats not what I ever said.

If you can't explain something, it doesn't mean its wrong. It means that you haven't proven your statement. You could be very well right about something, but until you prove it, you can't take it as a given and then go forth to make additional claims.

This is necessary so that we confirm things that are ACTUALLY true and we reduce the number of false-positives we observe in our collective desire to learn more about reality. 

Innerstanding? Is that an attempt at being deep or just making up words? 

Either way, drop the schtick. We get it. You're "enlightened"

Except you're not.

See, part of the problem here is that you think its reasonable to assert things as universally valid without being responsible for gathering the necessary evidence to actually SUPPORT what you're saying. 

It is not acceptable to merely conjure up an idea, no matter how good your intentions or how much you believe it, and assert it as fact, without going through the process of actually supporting and substantiating what you're saying.

If you fell down the stairs and say "god was punishing you," then you're going to have to do a better job of explaining why it was the Abrahamic God enacting punishment on you instead of a more reasonable and more importantly PROVABLE combination of neuromuscular uncoordination and gravity. 

You seem to have vendetta against religion. Were you "tampered" with? Is this really you putty?

 

[Jordan8]

"FutureMD" insinuates a goal not yet accomplished. An occupation with a date that doesn't exist yet.

Since the date doesn't exist yet you have no proof you will be in the medical field even tomorrow.

As someone who loves to point out the need of proof of the existence of something. I just find it ironic you chose a name with the word 'future' in it.

I'm just saying even you have put faith or belief in something.

 

[futuremd]

masterzik your right.. but if i need proof and facts for every little thing, i feel like im really lookin past what life is really about..

Well if you can't prove anything, what do you actually know?

bro ill be dead before something done in space makes anything better.. yea we might learn but it wont benefit me until all your test nd theorys work themselves out  lol.. i support learning without the restrictions of just one view point. can science prove intuition?

What does this have to do with anything?

 

[futuremd]

"FutureMD" insinuates a goal not yet accomplished. An occupation with a date that doesn't exist yet.

Since the date doesn't exist yet you have no proof you will be in the medical field even tomorrow.

As someone who loves to point out the need of proof of the existence of something. I just find it ironic you chose a name with the word 'future' in it.

I'm just saying even you have put faith or belief in something.

There is a difference between setting a goal for yourself and PROCLAIMING THAT YOU KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN WHEN YOU DIE OR THAT THERE IS THE ABRAHAMIC GOD OUT THERE WANTING TO MAKE SURE YOU FIND YOUR KEYS OR HELP YOU IN A JOB INTERVIEW.

I accept (minimally) that I very well may not become an MD (I'm accepting donations for my secondaries if anyone wants to contribute 

). Thats not an absolute claim.

However, theists DO NOT understand this nuance and they DO NOT tenure their claims on the basis of making absolute claims.

If you assert that a god exists, YOU MUST PROVE IT.

PERIOD.

If you assert that a soul exists, YOU MUST PROVE IT.

PERIOD.

If you assert that angels exist, YOU MUST PROVE IT.

PERIOD.

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. Always.

You don't say "prove me wrong." That can never be. You can't prove the negative of a deductive claim. You have to always prove that you're RIGHT. You can't ever prove something wrong, all you can do is prove something towards another conclusion. 

 

[longstroke]

Weakly veiled insults and condescending doesn't keep you from being wrong. With all these tangent responses you can not or haven't even bothered to attempt to extrapolate your senseless opinion. That's what I know.
 

Oh, the wonderful things Mr. Brown can do! He can go like a cow. He can go MOO MOO. Mr. Brown can do it. How about you? 

From: Mr Brown can MOO! Can you?

Dr. Seuss

Mr. Brown hopes that you too can moo, Master Zik. Do you understand that?

 

[Master Zik]

masterzik your right.. but if i need proof and facts for every little thing, i feel like im really lookin past what life is really about..

Well the whole facts and proof think is just to substantiate your claim. It's a apart of the process and can just be looked at as something apart of life. A tool in many ways, it's not suppose rule your life.

You also have to be wise in use of it. It shouldn't be an obstacle in your everyday life. It should be for important decisions. I really don't see how it can stop you from being happy or having fun unless believing in extraordinary and supernatural things is something you feel you need to be happy or have fun.

 

[offwhitewhite]

How can consciousness and free will only be a concept of existence when every single human being has it whether they want to or not? You have the same consciousness since you were born till the day you die.
 

That's your soul. 

Also, you said your consciousness is your brain experiencing itself? How is that any different then what I just said that our body and brain are vessels and tools that our souls inhabit. You wouldn't be able to know that you have a brain if you were your brain itself. 

 

[Master Zik]

Weakly veiled insults and condescending doesn't keep you from being wrong. With all these tangent responses you can not or haven't even bothered to attempt to extrapolate your senseless opinion. That's what I know.

 

Oh, the wonderful things Mr. Brown can do! He can go like a cow. He can go MOO MOO. Mr. Brown can do it. How about you? 

From: Mr Brown can MOO! Can you?

Dr. Seuss

Mr. Brown hopes that you too can moo, Master Zik. Do you understand that?

Has nothing to do with humanity's motivation, struggle to survive, or any of your aforementioned claims. Hope isn't keeping humanity in it's current state, Aristotle, Confucius, Kant, Lu Bu, the age of reason, the Renaissance, and several other philosophers and important figures, past world events/periods can all tell you that and are evidence of it. Granted it's important but is not responsible for what you say.

This continued attempt to insult in such a condescending nature just makes you look petty. If your stance has nothing supporting it stop replying I pretty much could already tell given your first response to me. If you can't or don't want to defend your stance that's fine too but either way you'd still be wrong.

How can consciousness and free will only be a concept of existence when every single human being has it whether they want to or not? You have the same consciousness since you were born till the day you die.




That's your soul.


Also, you said your consciousness is your brain experiencing itself? How is that any different then what I just said that our body and brain are vessels and tools that our souls inhabit. You wouldn't be able to know that you have a brain if you were your brain itself.

I'm a bit lost here with your view on this. If you're saying consciousness is the soul why have two words for the same thing in this case? What's so special about the word soul that'd you have to be so attached to that word?

It seems when ppl are using the word soul they're attaching much more to it than what the definition of what consciousness is and that's why one will ask what a soul actually is.

 

[brainwashed21]

Philosophy is nothing more than people speculating from their intuition.... You say science is not a thing but supported by fact. I say screw science being the one that says what's real or not. What's intuition? direct perception of truth, fact, etc., independent of any reasoning process; immediate apprehension. Or the ability to acquire knowledge without inference and/or the use of reason. Now in no way am I saying that this credits religion/angels to be real... But as I said, can science deny beginning from intuiton? The man that made fire.. you don't think that was out of neccessity? He didn't have proof from anywhere to be able to make that.. electricity? You think that man just woke up one day nd made it? He thought about it, he believed it could happen.. they never saw it until they created it.. a person believing in a higher power is wrong because you can't see it? How did people make it through slavery, crossing crounties to the states? Off hope that there would be better days.. a belief nd faith you can't see.. regardless if they believed in god or buddha.. once they overcame that obstacle it became real. I don't understand how you don't see that.. your science is created by philosophy and intuition.. everything has a beginning

 

[offwhitewhite]

I'm a bit lost here with your view on this. If you're saying consciousness is the soul why have two words for the same thing in this case? What's so special about the word soul that'd you have to be so attached to that word?
It seems when ppl are using the word soul they're attaching much more to it than what the definition of what consciousness is and that's why one will ask what a soul actually is.

He keeps asking for proof. But where is your proof that we have a conscious? Where is it located? What does good look like? What about evil? 

When I ask him what's a person and individuality? He says that's just how a brain works....

He's saying that our free will and consciousness are just illusions; that everything we do or think is chosen from a list that's limited by our brain's capability. That we are artificial intelligence that our brain created. How does that make any sense?

 

[futuremd]

How can consciousness and free will only be a concept of existence when every single human being has it whether they want to or not? You have the same consciousness since you were born till the day you die.
 

That's your soul. 

Also, you said your consciousness is your brain experiencing itself? How is that any different then what I just said that our body and brain are vessels and tools that our souls inhabit. You wouldn't be able to know that you have a brain if you were your brain itself. 

Yo. 

All you're doing is making up a definition for something that DOES NOT EXIST.

You're saying "well since you are a sentient being you have a soul"

This isn't 18th century philosophy. 

You're not Kant.

You're not Descartes. 

We're not talking about spirits. 

We have something call neuroscience now. This stuff isn't beyond us in the modern world. We've made more advances in the last 100 years than we have in the last 1000 because we don't have to be limited to the nonsense asserted by people who can't be bothered to make reasonable assertions. 

You've done nothing more than saying: A soul is consciousness

Then just call it consciousness. 

What are you talking about? 

Your soul is not a thing. It doesn't exist. Its a term that has no meaning. Its something theologians have twisted into whatever the prevailing understanding of psychology was at the time.

You guys are just moving the goalposts.

As soon as we learn something more about cognition then here you guys come dragging at the rear'... THE SOUL! THE SOUL! DONT YOU SEE! 

Save it.

This is pathetic. You're not talking about anything. 

Vessels for a ...SOUL? 

I'm tired of dealing with this pseudo-poetic corporate buzzword crap about a concept that doesn't even exist. Leave the mystical woo alone. 

You're better than that. 

We might not understand EVERYTHING about the brain, but that DOES NOT give you the leeway to come in here with these half-***** theories about what a "soul" is.

You don't get to steal the work of others on what consciousness and perception is and then proclaim it as "soul"

 

[futuremd]

I'm a bit lost here with your view on this. If you're saying consciousness is the soul why have two words for the same thing in this case? What's so special about the word soul that'd you have to be so attached to that word?
It seems when ppl are using the word soul they're attaching much more to it than what the definition of what consciousness is and that's why one will ask what a soul actually is.

He keeps asking for proof. But where is your proof that we have a conscious? Where is it located? 

Your neocortex. 

We're not the only animals with an ability to reason or with an awareness of who we are.

Your brain has the ability to be aware of being aware. 

I don't understand what you're asking.

What does good look like? What about evil? 

They're subjective notions that societies create to create social lubrication.

When I ask him what's a person and individuality? He says that's just how a brain works....

What is individuality? 

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? 

Its whatever makes you, you.

What are you asking here?

He's saying that our free will and consciousness are just illusions; that everything we do or think is chosen from a list that's limited by our brain's capability. That we are artificial intelligence that our brain created. How does that make any sense?

I didn't say any of this. 

Additionally, you created this narrative about AI and said that I said it. 

 

[offwhitewhite]

Yeah, you're frustrated because you can't pull up any stats to prove me wrong.

I'm not making up a definition. I'm telling you what I think it is. Why are you so mad?

Everything in Science starts as a theory. Just because I can't prove it at the moment doesn't mean I'm wrong. 

It doesn't give you the leeway to come in and tell me I'm wrong.

I'm telling you what I feel and I'm stealing work? Okay. 

Yeah, we're vessels meaning we DICTATE what we do with our body and mind. Your brain and mind don't control you, you control them. 

But if you're content thinking that we're artificial intelligence created by our brain, I'm not mad at you.

You JUST said individuality is what you make it. Who is you? 

 

[KMante]

If an atheist is from Anaheim, and is a fan of the Los Angeles ANGELS of Anaheim, does that mean he believes in Angels??

 

[futuremd]

Philosophy is nothing more than people speculating from their intuition.... 

I agree for the most part.

You say science is not a thing but supported by fact.

Its supported by observable data that supports hypotheses that are asserted.

Science doesn't care about fact. It cares about where the evidence leads. Facts are just buzzwords.

I say screw science being the one that says what's real or not.

Good luck with that.

What's intuition? direct perception of truth, fact, etc., independent of any reasoning process; immediate apprehension.

I love how you think you're qualified to merely just sit on the toilet without ANY sort of background on the matter and then reason anything because it makes you feel better instead of actually studying intuition.

Intuition is more than "perception of truth". Thats a meaningless phrase. Its vapid. Empty. 

Intuition often has a lot to do with chemistry (on a basic level) then it does with mere brain function.

Or the ability to acquire knowledge without inference and/or the use of reason.

Thats not intuition any more than it is curiosity. 

Now in no way am I saying that this credits religion/angels to be real... But as I said, can science deny beginning from intuiton?

Your question does NOT make any sense.

You can't assert "beginning from intuition" as the starting point without establishing that it IS the starting point. You need to back that up.

You keep making these leaps and asserting them as givens without even legitimizing them in the first place.

The man that made fire.. you don't think that was out of neccessity?

Necessity? No. Convenience, I think is more likely.

He didn't have proof from anywhere to be able to make that.. electricity? You think that man just woke up one day nd made it? He thought about it, he believed it could happen..

I'm not going to say I know how the "first fire" was made, because I don't know, but I don't see how you think its reasonable to assert that people don't learn how to do things in steps.

Maybe there was some flint that made a spark or a wildfire they observed and used it to create more. I don't know.

But what does this have to do with anything? 

Nothing really happens all at once.

 they never saw it until they created it..

We never saw iphones until we created those either. 

Whats your point?

Baby steps. 

a person believing in a higher power is wrong because you can't see it?

Yes.

If you want something to be true, it doesn't make it true. PERIOD.

Until you can substantiate ANY claim, then it is unsupported. No matter how "obvious" it seems to you. Until you can back it up, then it doesn't matter. 

PERIOD.

 How did people make it through slavery, crossing crounties to the states?

a will to live?

Off hope that there would be better days.. a belief nd faith you can't see.. regardless if they believed in god or buddha..

So? 

It doesn't make it real.

If you pray to a little figure of barbie dolls at night and you get your freedom, it doesn't mean that little doll saved your life.

You're not making a good case here. 

once they overcame that obstacle it became real.

It actually didn't.

God didn't get any more real when they gained their freedom.

Them wanting something to be true, doesn't make it true. 

 I don't understand how you don't see that.. your science is created by philosophy and intuition.. everything has a beginning

Actually, everything doesn't have a beginning. Thats another assertion of yours. Think about that. REALLY think about that before you reply. 

If you KNOW this to be true, then you have to back that up.

 

[Master Zik]

I'm a bit lost here with your view on this. If you're saying consciousness is the soul why have two words for the same thing in this case? What's so special about the word soul that'd you have to be so attached to that word?

It seems when ppl are using the word soul they're attaching much more to it than what the definition of what consciousness is and that's why one will ask what a soul actually is.

He keeps asking for proof. But where is your proof that we have a conscious? Where is it located? What does good look like? What about evil? 


When I ask him what's a person and individuality? He says that's just how a brain works....

He's saying that our free will and consciousness are just illusions; that everything we do or think is chosen from a list that's limited by our brain's capability. That we are artificial intelligence that our brain created. How does that make any sense?

Good and evil are just concepts and can simply be defined as things you do and don't like or things that are in your best interest or not. There's plenty of other ways to simplify and get to the core of those two things. More than one way to look at it. That'd be an issue falling in the realm of philosophy, specifically dealing with philosophy of ethics/morals.

The soul though, not so much. You'd need to at least have a definition of it or an example or are you saying the soul is just a concept that can be simplified down to something else and can be as random and arbitrary as any other act of good or evil? There's proof for consciousness, there are tests to tell if a person has one and/or if it's working correctly. I know it's formed by electrical synapses in the brain though, so it'd be somewhere there.

What you're saying he's saying isn't making sense. How can free will be an illusion and that everything we do is limited by our brain's capability? The capability of the brain is what allows free will to exist. When did he say we are artificial intelligence?

If it's your brain, it's you're doing. You're talking like the brain is separate from yourself. As if it's controlling you and your actions and has it's own agenda. It's really not making any sense and I'm pretty sure I haven't read anyone saying in this thread until your post. It honestly feels like I'm reading science fiction with what you're saying he's saying.