Israel declares War - Destruction of Gaza / Growing conflict in Middle East

[gry60]

As expected, Israel overreacted:

Reuters has a quick snap that there has already been diplomatic reaction to Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s words describing Hamas as a liberation group rather than a terrorist organisation. Italy’s deputy prime minister Matteo Salvini has described the words as “disgusting” and said he will suggest that Italy summons the Turkish ambassador to lodge a protest.

The Hamas attack on southern Israel on 7 October left over 1,400 Israelis dead – chiefly civilians – and Hamas fighters took at least 222 hostages back into Gaza with them. Described as a pogrom by the UK’s prime minister, the targets for the Hamas rampage included a music festival, and led to scenes described by first responders as a massacre.

Israel says it has refused visa to UN official to 'teach them a lesson'​

Israel says it has refused a visa to UN humanitarian affairs chief Martin Griffiths as a result of comments at the UN by secretary-general António Guterres.

Israeli media reports that Israel’s ambassador to the UN Gilad Erdan said on army radio:

Due to his remarks we will refuse to issue visas to UN representatives. We have already refused a visa for under-secretary-general for humanitarian affairs Martin Griffiths. The time has come to teach them a lesson.

Israel has called on UN secretary general Guterres to resign after he said that the“appalling attacks” by Hamas against Israel on 7 October cannot justify the “collective punishment of the Palestinian people”, and spoke of “the clear violations of international humanitarian law that we are witnessing in Gaza.”

Justin Welby accused of ârelegatingâ plight of Palestinian Christians

Anglicans in West Bank say they are ‘utterly perplexed’ by archbishop of Canterbury’s statements on Israel-Hamas war

www.theguardian.com

The letter also said: “We are utterly perplexed by the public statements coming out from your office on the current situation in Palestine. It has become clear to us that our voices as Palestinian Anglicans are not being heard in Canterbury and our interests are being relegated …


“We are afraid that domestic British ecumenical and political considerations are more relevant in your decision-making process than the accurate recognition and implementation of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people in general, and of the Anglican Palestinian community in particular …

“Our position unequivocally opposes all attacks against civilians regardless of national, ethnic or religious identity and calls for the full implementation of international humanitarian law.

“What we would expect from our church is to fully condemn the systematic denial of our rights and calls to annihilate our people, especially as these are being publicly expressed by the current fascist Israeli government, rather than attempting to create a balance between the oppressed and the oppressor.”

 

[TSCQ]

 

[heelsandeers]

Israelis all come back to Europe and get some town / city in Germany as their place to be. No longer an independent country but exist within Germany. This is reparations for what happened in the past.

Should’ve been Europe to start. Though can see why Germany would have given Jews pause at the time. Places like Australia, Madagascar, Crimea, etc were also considered early on

 

[osh kosh bosh]

How about this. I mean Israel is legit only the size of New Jersey and total population is only 9M people (of which 2M are Palestinians).

Here’s my solution:
-Give Palestine back to the Palestinians
-As part of this Palestinians have real elections and elect someone to lead this new Palestine
-Israelis all come back to Europe and get some town / city in Germany as their place to be. No longer an independent country but exist within Germany. This is reparations for what happened in the past.
-All the refugees like Syrians etc in Europe get sent into this New Palestine (big friction point for EU countries currently).

Lots of global resources given to help both of these succeed and have infrastructure.


Done.

lolwut?

unless you are gunna go to war with nuclear armed isreal none of that is going to happen, they aren't leaving.

Americans really want to believe they have more control over this then they do.
Isreal is the strongest military force in that region they literally don't have to do anything America or really anyone says.

 

[ahat]

Should’ve been Europe to start. Though can see why Germany would have given Jews pause at the time. Places like Australia, Madagascar, Crimea, etc were also considered early on

A lot of them went to Argentina initially

 

[ballinsam23]

Yea, this guy is an idiot. Even biblically there were people there (Canaanites) when Jews left Egypt. Eventually won over through wars.

The actual modern-day "settlers" though, that's only made this conflict worse. I would understand if you want to build houses on empty land, there's plenty of unused empty land in Israel, but forcefully removing people from their own houses for transplants from the US/ South America/Europe. Nah.

 

[ballinsam23]

Also this is what I meant when I said this is more of a Gaza and West Bank problem.

The Palestinians outside of those two areas coexist normally and are viewed as regular citizens. Its time like these where the discrimination is out of hand though.

The war has forced Israel’s Arab citizens to explain that no, they are not Hamas

‘From friend to enemy’: Palestinians in Israel suspended from jobs over war

Palestinians in Israel are facing a backlash at work and places of study after the Hamas attack on October 7.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[moderndarwin]

lolwut?

unless you are gunna go to war with nuclear armed isreal none of that is going to happen, they aren't leaving.

Americans really want to believe they have more control over this then they do.
Isreal is the strongest military force in that region they literally don't have to do anything America or really anyone says.

we’re just chatting on a message board lol obviously this is a thought exercise and millions of people aren’t going to be moving around…

 

[gry60]

Americans really want to believe they have more control over this then they do.

Apartheid South Africa was a nuclear state under international sanctions because of their treatment of Black South Africans. That was with the US calling the ANC a terrorist organization too. Being a regional power alone isn't a guarantor of unlimited freedom to violate the rights of less powerful neighbors.

The only reason Israel isn't treated as a pariah state is because they have the unconditional backing of the US. Other Western countries don't want to depart from the official US position, so they march to that beat and disavow calls for ceasefire that originate from within their respective political scenes.

Where Israel really benefits from this arrangement is at the UN (the little kid talking **** to everybody because big bro got the largest Navy ever), but I'm convinced that this is damaging some of the long-term goals of US foreign policy, mainly avoiding nuclear proliferation.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Apartheid South Africa was a nuclear state under international sanctions because of their treatment of Black South Africans. That was with the US calling the ANC a terrorist organization too. Being a regional power alone isn't a guarantor of unlimited freedom to violate the rights of less powerful neighbors.

The only reason Israel isn't treated as a pariah state is because they have the unconditional backing of the US. Other Western countries don't want to depart from the official US position, so they march to that beat and disavow calls for ceasefire that originate from within their respective political scenes.

Where Israel really benefits from this arrangement is at the UN (the little kid talking **** to everybody because big bro got the largest Navy ever), but I'm convinced that this is damaging some of the long-term goals of US foreign policy, mainly avoiding nuclear proliferation.

I don't find these comparisons to South Africa even slightly compelling. Whites were like 20% of the population, the sustainability of that was always much more precarious.
and I find it highly suspect the idea that all these western countries only support Isreal because of the US position.
plenty of Jewish pro Isreal minorities in western countries, that have influence in government and not to mention the historical connection western countries have to the plight of jewish people.
plus support for isreal polls pretty well, so I don't belive for a sec it's just US influence that maintains Isreali support.

but even ignoring all these things.

They aren't leaving, if you want them to leave, someone will have to go remove them and nobody wants to do that.
Plenty of just as abusive regimes continue on, plenty of countries with violent boarder conflicts exist and continue to persist.

plus the idea that US turning Isreal into a pariah state would lead to less bloodshed.
I think there is just as much if not a greater chance it goes in the opposite direction.

If Isreal truly finds itself as a pariah state, why wouldn't it just totally turn away from liberalism and peace and go full final solution?


The future is hard to predict but fundamentally, Isreal is in the drivers seat.
They don't have to listen to anyone if they don't want to.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Should’ve been Europe to start. Though can see why Germany would have given Jews pause at the time. Places like Australia, Madagascar, Crimea, etc were also considered early on

yah we all know large jewish minorities setting up shop in europe has always turned out great.

 

[heelsandeers]

yah we all know large jewish minorities setting up shop in europe has always turned out great.

My post specifically acknowledges that

Maintaining the status quo with Jewish neighborhoods throughout Europe and elsewhere remaining as is were one of three schools of thought amongst Jewish leaders post WW2

 

[DLF]

Artists4Ceasefire

www.artists4ceasefire.org

Brave artists.

 

[smedroc]

Iran is getting their wish.

Attacks are increasing on US bases in that region by Iran backed groups.

This will only escalate into a larger war.

Getting their wish??

 

[DLF]

 

[tkthafm]

Wow. Whole family of one of aljazeera’s most well known/senior Gaza reporters was just killed in a Israeli bombing while he was live on air, wife and 3 kids including his baby. Aljazeera is broadcasting the heartbreaking videos of him viewing their dead bodies at the hospital right now to millions of viewers worldwide. Expect the situation to get even worse now. Blowback coming for sure.

 

[DLF]

I have Come to believe the Israelis are pretty much randomly selecting sites to bomb. I don’t think there’s any intelligence anywhere. Just pick a few for the day and strike. Tweet out “we killed a few more Hamas…sorry civilians”

World watches. Nothing happens.

Even if they open southern border and push all 1.8 remaining million people south and completely take over Gaza and make it Israel…I wouldn’t put it past them to bomb the refugee camp in Egypt that will inevitably get set up. “Oh there were some terrorists there. Sorry”

I’d be interested to see the humanitarian aid that would pour in to help those in an Egyptian refugee camp of Gaza citizens. I imagine it would be monumental. So sad

 

[fargin]

Never a fan of the term crisis actor.

 

[heelsandeers]

Wow. Whole family of one of aljazeera’s most well known/senior Gaza reporters was just killed in a Israeli bombing while he was live on air, wife and 3 kids including his baby. Aljazeera is broadcasting the heartbreaking videos of him viewing their dead bodies at the hospital right now to millions of viewers worldwide. Expect the situation to get even worse now. Blowback coming for sure.

Just heartbreaking

 

[me love nutella]

Never a fan of the term crisis actor.

Are you posting this here as a joke? I follow one of the guys on Instagram, and it is not the same person in each video.

People are wild with their conspiracy theories.

 

[gry60]

I find it highly suspect the idea that all these western countries only support Isreal because of the US position.
plenty of Jewish pro Isreal minorities in western countries, that have influence in government and not to mention the historical connection western countries have to the plight of jewish people.
plus support for isreal polls pretty well, so I don't belive for a sec it's just US influence that maintains Isreali support.

I didn't say that support for Israel doesn't poll well; what I'm pointing at is how the foreign policy position of those countries doesn't reflect the nuance that exists internally when it comes to Israel/Palestine debate. I suspect that most people do not agree with the manner in which Israel is responding and see the double standard with which Israel is being treated, but speaking up about that is not welcome, at least officially.

They aren't leaving, if you want them to leave, someone will have to go remove them and nobody wants to do that.

I am not talking about making Israel leave.

Plenty of just as abusive regimes continue on, plenty of countries with violent boarder conflicts exist and continue to persist.

And the US can invade their countries and take their leaders to the ICC for trial, even though they're not a member of it.

plus the idea that US turning Isreal into a pariah state would lead to less bloodshed.
I think there is just as much if not a greater chance it goes in the opposite direction.

There's a huge difference between what the US is doing (have at it, Bibi) and international sanctions. At the moment, there is no real incentive to force Israel to exercise restraint towards Gazans, and much of the world doesn't think that defending one's territory justifies indiscriminate killing of civilian and total siege tactics. There's no confusion about the intent of such actions, but no country is powerful enough to turn their opinion of Israel into actual opposition. This put more responsibility on the US to rein Israel in.

If Isreal truly finds itself as a pariah state, why wouldn't it just totally turn away from liberalism and peace and go full final solution?

There are factors that make Israeli liberalism (if this is understood to mean western values of representation, human rights, democracy, etc...) tenuous at best:
- the need to maintain an ethnic Jewish majority (which makes a single state solution a non-starter and brings into question the status of non-Jewish Israelis)
- the need to define the state as religiously Jewish (which implies potential suppression of non-jewish religious identities and the potential insertion of Jewish religion into the legal system)

The recent move to weaken the supreme court is a manifestation of these factors; it also suggests that this turn has already happened.

There just isn't an official acknowledgement that Israel's goal may not just be mere protection from their neighbors, but colonization of historic Palestine. It could be that Western diplomats know it, but Palestinians losing the rest of their land doesn't weigh much compared to whatever is gained from unconditionally supportnig Israel.

 

[IATT]

 

[IATT]

 

[me love nutella]

I have Come to believe the Israelis are pretty much randomly selecting sites to bomb. I don’t think there’s any intelligence anywhere. Just pick a few for the day and strike. Tweet out “we killed a few more Hamas…sorry civilians”

World watches. Nothing happens.

Even if they open southern border and push all 1.8 remaining million people south and completely take over Gaza and make it Israel…I wouldn’t put it past them to bomb the refugee camp in Egypt that will inevitably get set up. “Oh there were some terrorists there. Sorry”

I’d be interested to see the humanitarian aid that would pour in to help those in an Egyptian refugee camp of Gaza citizens. I imagine it would be monumental. So sad

There are many reasons why Israel are carpet bombing Gaza. It's a numbers game. Right now in historic Palestine, the population is nearly half Jews and half Palestinians. They're literally starving Palestinians to death, removing all basic necessities as well as healthcare and letting diseases and infections run rampant to kill them off slowly, making them homeless and without families left alive, on top of wiping out whole families and bloodlines. It's a genocide to exterminate as many possible to continue making Gazans feel more worth death than alive.

This is also a tactic hoping the population turns on Hamas, but it's backfiring. Israel dropped leaflets the other day telling Gazans they'll get rewards for coming forward on Hamas. Gazans ripped them up and just said they'll continue to fight as long as they need to.

Gazans have a stereotype of being stubborn and hard headed, but who can blame them, they're treated like caged animals. Also, you can't defeat their psyche when they're willing to die for their land and people and you're considered a martyr even if you're just killed instantly without fighting. It's the highest esteem given to you to be remembered by. All the kilked civilians are always labeled as martyrs. They see their life as nothing because they're treated with no dignity, value and as disposable living the horrors and experiencing incomprehensible suffering. So, they're waiting for the afterlife where they believe they'll be rewarded and live a much better life. You can't beat down a population with those core beliefs in a war.

Bibi keeps threatening with a ground invasion, and seriously at this point sounds like he's bluffing. He knows a ground invasion will finish him as PM.

 

[ballinsam23]

The ground invasion will lead to higher death tolls of the IDF. They know they’re walking into a trap with these tunnels, would take a large amount of strategic preparation so probably one reason it’s taking so long.

The Palestinian people would not give up Hamas even if they wanted to, that’s a death sentence to their families. The captured Hamas soldiers are already talking anyway.

Bibi knows he finished regardless after this is over. His main backing was that he kept Israel “safe” during his tenure, but that proved to be wrong.

ALOT of Israelis do not like this current government. People turned against him even more after the whole judiciary saga. Plenty still don’t like him and his people, there are videos like this all over YouTube, WhatsApp, TikTok