Jay-z wouldn't have had a career if Biggie and Pac didn't die - snoop

[antidope]

I had this conversation with my friends last night and I came to the conclusion that if for some odd reason Jay-Z would have faded into obscurity if Big and Pac were still alive like people are suggesting then I can accept the ways things really played out. Before people fly off the handle, no I am not saying that I am fine with the fact that they died, cause I'm not, pointless deaths are not ok, I would have much preferred if they stayed alive and faded into irrelevance thus opening up the lane for Jay, but if this was really the only reason that it happened, and the only reason why he vaulted into stardom and thus made more music then what can I say? I wouldn't want Jay-Z to not have an avenue to make more music in order to keep two others around, one of which I only casually listened to and another I don't listen to at all cause I don't think hes good at all.

Regardless of all the other nonsense being spewed in this thread...

This man literally just stated that he would gladly sacrifice the lives of two human beings in order for Jay-Z to have had a career beyond Reasonable Doubt. Bro, I really think you need to reevaluate your life right now...

Nowhere in my post did I say that, NOWHERE, I didnt even imply it. In fact I posted a disclaimer in my post to PREVENT someone from assuming such. How does "Before people fly off the handle, no I am not saying that I am fine with the fact that they died, cause I'm not, pointless deaths are not ok, I would have much preferred if they stayed alive and faded into irrelevance thus opening up the lane for Jay "not do that? Dont put words in my mouth man, especially regarding something as serious as life and death. Point out the lines that made you come to such a conclusion, because I do not see them, it alarms me that you're saying this because that is exactly what I tried to avoid people from thinking. I gave my honest opinion of the matter same as everyone else.

In case I need to be more clear "No I would not gladly sacrifice the lives of anyone to further Jay-Zs career, or to benefit Jay-Z in any way shape or form" That is not what I said, what I DID SAY was that if it was in fact the case that the deaths of those two individuals was the dominating factor in Jay-Zs success( Which I dont even agree with, but its the topic of conversation and apparently the prevailing opinion in this thread) then what can I say? No? One guy directly contributes to my life being that hes makes the music that I listen to the most, while the other two dont do that. What I did say is that I accepted the end result of the situation, if in fact the situation that is being presented is in fact true (again I dont think it is in the slightest, was just going along with the thread topic)

I dont want to raise some crazy hypothetical about someones life, but I'm sure you see what I'm getting at. This whole thread is based off hearsay, and I simply made a comment regarding it. No ones happy about anyone dying, nor would they give up someones life to propel someone elses. I didnt say it then, not saying it now, nor will I ever say it.

 

[ninjahood]

So Impact, Popularity & sales is enough for X to be the undisputed KONY but the same criteria doesn't apply for jay a few years later.

Stillmatic was a great album, blueprint was the bigger album (It changed the ENTIRE landscape of rap for the next few years)
Nas singles weren't as big as Jay's singles
Nas wasn't anywhere near as big as jay as far as popularity goes. I mean the ***** brought out Michael Jackson at summer jam while Nas was busy trying to literally Lynch a Jay-Z figure.

'everybody loopin up soul, its like they tryna make the bp2 before hov' ..

jay had THE WHOLE GAME buying just blaze and kanye 'soul' beats like hotcakes!!  evern YOUR fav rapper followed suit!!

'yall just kids, see what i just did, took a couple bars off let just live'- beautiful verse over an even more beautiful beat that jay z obviously couldnt have influenced...lol..

umm ghostface killah aint stop making soul beats since ironman in 96

 

[ninjahood]

So due to the overwhelming OPINIONS of cats saying Jay wasn't even in the running of KONY during DMX time i decided hey lets bring out the #'s

DMX (1998-2000)
12 Million Sold
1 Top 20 Single
Jay-Z (1998-2000)
11 Million Sold
1 #1 he was featured on
3 Top 20 Hits of his own
the Biggest single on the RUFF RYDERS compilation..... but X was CLEARLY the bigger of the 2.

It's Dark & Hell Is Hot - 3x Platinum

(All These #'s are top 100 not just Rap/hip-hop)

Get At Me Dog - #39
Hows It Going Down - #70
RR Anthem - #99


Hard Knock Life 5x Platinum
Received A Grammy for the album (In Which he Boycotted because they DIDNT include X)
The Streets Is Watching Movie is Certified Platinum as of 1998
Was Featured on Hearbraker with Mariah which was the #1 Sing in the country

Can I Getta - #19
Hard Knock Life #15
***** What ***** Who - #88


Flesh Of My Flesh Blood Of My Blood 4x Platinum

Only Official Single was Slippin considering it was still being carried by the singles of the first album.

Life & Times Of S.Carter Vol 3. – 3X Platinum

J**** My ***** - #28 (AKA OFFICIALLY the biggest song off of the Ruff Ryders compilation)
Girl’s Best friend - # 52 (This was also featured on yet another Compilation)
Put Your Hands Up - # 62
Big Pimpin - # 18

Then There Was X – 5x Platinum

Whats My Name - #66
Party Up - #21
What These ******* Want - #49

The Dynasty – 2 million

I Just Wanna Love Ya - #1 in hiphop/R&B (I can’t find the top 100 position for this but i'm pretty sure it was top 20 if not top 10 this is prolly one of jays biggest hits)
Change The Game - #86
Guilty Until Proven Innocent - #82

Nostalgia often clouds judgement... ya'll might wanna chill on that

umm you ARE aware that flesh of my flesh, blood of my blood came out da same year as it dark and hell is out right? why would you

compare it to life & times of shawn carter?

1998 was DMX's year BAR NONE..he STILL owns da record for having 2 #1 selling albums da same year, and both of them

***** were fire...jay-z wasn't touching duke AT ALL..

and you're list already shows DMX was da bigger artist sales wise, when ALBUMS MATTERED, not just singles.

 

[ninjahood]

I'm no mathematician, but isn't 12 million > than 11 million?

So DMX sold more albums with less Hot 100 singles, less radio play.....but he wasn't a bigger artist?

Interesting.....

 

[ninjahood]

That would be cool if you didn't state this earlier.
All of these dropped in 98, where unlike today's music singles weren't disposable and people got to embrace the music before being bombarded by a million other things. Don't act like your naive and try to say his second album did those numbers based off one single fam... Don't play that way

So you mean to tell me that six Massive singles (by your definition) all dropping in the same year as flesh of my flesh didn't propel that album but instead it was the one single that didn't chart that gave it that buzz

.

and quite frankly if we only bringing up the first two albums.... Jay outsold X 9 mil to 7 mil while x was in his prime........

The only reason X got the higher #'s throughout those years was because Jay dropped Dynasty (Which was supposed to be a ****** Compilation) and X scored BY FAR his biggest hit with that wackass "Party Up" & "What these chicks want" feat. Sisqo

Again, trying too hard. What you quoted me saying was in a discussion about IDAHIH vs. REASONABLE DOUBT. The singles off of those 2 albums only.

You're a lame for taking my words so out of context. Especially since you went all the way back to copy them.

So yes, all those X singles were big, sure.

But YOU broke down the #s. You broke down the stats. I didn't include a single Hot100 number in my post. You did that.

You look at all the singles Jay had vs. the singles X had in albums released from 98-00 and all of Jay's singles charted higher if you put it all together. That's per YOUR post.

But X sold more records.

So you literally built a case that wound up refuting your argument and you still want to go back and forth about it?

You literally broke down the metrics. Your post started with DMX-12 Million and Jay-Z-11 Million.

You failed.

I never said anything about what propelled FLESH. I just know there was only 1 single from it and Jay had mad singles off of his album and they were all over the radio. But X sold more. You can spin that however you like. I'm just using the stats/info you were gracious enough to provide for me.

And this whole "only reason" things is lame as well. Dynasty had one of Jay's biggest singles. There's more than one reason why X got higher #'s and one of those reasons was that he was the bigger artist at the time.

 

[ninjahood]

It's Dark and Hell is Hot is the debut album of American rapper DMX, released May 12, 1998 on Ruff Ryders Entertainment and Def Jam Recordings.[sup][1][/sup] The album featured four singles with music videos,

Vol. 2... Hard Knock Life is the third studio album by American rapper Jay-Z, released on September 29, 1998, on Roc-A-Fella Records in the United States

Flesh of My Flesh, Blood of My Blood is the second album released in December 15, 1998 by rapper DMX.[sup][5][/sup] It entered the charts at number one (and stayed there for 3 consecutive weeks) with an impressive 670,000 units shipped in the first week.[sup][8][/sup] The album eventually went 3x Platinum in the US.[sup][9][/sup] DMX released his debut album It's Dark and Hell Is Hot in 1998 as well. He is the second rapper to have two albums released in the same calendar year to debut at number one on Billboard's Top 200, the first being Tupac Shakur with his albums, All Eyez on Me(February 1996) and The Don Killuminati: The 7 Day Theory(November 1996).

putting da album release dates into contexts says alot...i mean who da hell in their right mind would say 1998 was ANYBODY'S year

except DMX?

jay-z stans.

 

[PRIME]

This thread is horrible

****** really in here saying Jay was bigger than Pac and Big?

****

I'm a Jay fan... But ****... Some of ya'll tripping.

Jay ain't officially take over the game until the Blueprint fam. Hard Knock Life was the beginning, but he wasn't solidified "TOP DOG" yet. He still had competition.

Jay ain't have the game in a headlock until Ye and Just laced him and the ROC went on its dynasty era mode.

Some of ya'll are trying to rewrite history just cause Jay your favorite rapper.

Stan status.

 

[-Red-]

I had this conversation with my friends last night and I came to the conclusion that if for some odd reason Jay-Z would have faded into obscurity if Big and Pac were still alive like people are suggesting then I can accept the ways things really played out. Before people fly off the handle, no I am not saying that I am fine with the fact that they died, cause I'm not, pointless deaths are not ok, I would have much preferred if they stayed alive and faded into irrelevance thus opening up the lane for Jay, but if this was really the only reason that it happened, and the only reason why he vaulted into stardom and thus made more music then what can I say? I wouldn't want Jay-Z to not have an avenue to make more music in order to keep two others around, one of which I only casually listened to and another I don't listen to at all cause I don't think hes good at all.

Regardless of all the other nonsense being spewed in this thread...

This man literally just stated that he would gladly sacrifice the lives of two human beings in order for Jay-Z to have had a career beyond Reasonable Doubt. Bro, I really think you need to reevaluate your life right now...

Nowhere in my post did I say that, NOWHERE, I didnt even imply it. In fact I posted a disclaimer in my post to PREVENT someone from assuming such. How does "Before people fly off the handle, no I am not saying that I am fine with the fact that they died, cause I'm not, pointless deaths are not ok, I would have much preferred if they stayed alive and faded into irrelevance thus opening up the lane for Jay "
not do that? Dont put words in my mouth man, especially regarding something as serious as life and death. Point out the lines that made you come to such a conclusion, because I do not see them, it alarms me that you're saying this because that is exactly what I tried to avoid people from thinking. I gave my honest opinion of the matter same as everyone else.


In case I need to be more clear "No I would not gladly sacrifice the lives of anyone to further Jay-Zs career, or to benefit Jay-Z in any way shape or form" That is not what I said, what I DID SAY was that if it was in fact the case that the deaths of those two individuals was the dominating factor in Jay-Zs success( Which I dont even agree with, but its the topic of conversation and apparently the prevailing opinion in this thread) then what can I say? No? One guy directly contributes to my life being that hes makes the music that I listen to the most, while the other two dont do that. What I did say is that I accepted the end result of the situation, if in fact the situation that is being presented is in fact true (again I dont think it is in the slightest, was just going along with the thread topic)

I dont want to raise some crazy hypothetical about someones life, but I'm sure you see what I'm getting at. This whole thread is based off hearsay, and I simply made a comment regarding it. No ones happy about anyone dying, nor would they give up someones life to propel someone elses. I didnt say it then, not saying it now, nor will I ever say it.

You can't give a "disclaimer" and then directly contradict that disclaimer. Which is what you did. Period. No one had to "put words in your mouth." Anyone with any semblance of reading comprehension can clearly see your deplorable position...

 

[antidope]

Where is the contradiction? I'm honestly not seeing it, and if there is one I would love to clear it up. I tried to do that in my reply to you but apparently I did not.

 

[510thanos]

There it is.

 i call a spade a spade

mase kinda like jarule in the sense that we all knew he was hot , we just wasn't taking

him too seriously ...right off the bat with holla holla he just looked goofy

horrible comparison. Ja Rule was doin Pac mixed wit some sing songy type ish an his flow was meh...the gimmicks why cats aint take him srsly

Mase was doin him. only similarity would be mainstream/pop soundin records but Mase was actually spittin. nobody questioned his pen game

 

[illphillip]

"I wouldn't want Jay-Z to not have an avenue to make more music in order to keep two others around, one of which I only casually listened to and another I don't listen to at all cause I don't think hes good at all."

I don't know what "contradiction" is being discussed. But I do know I was disgusted when I read that.

 

[antidope]

"I wouldn't want Jay-Z to not have an avenue to make more music in order to keep two others around, one of which I only casually listened to and another I don't listen to at all cause I don't think hes good at all."

I don't know what "contradiction" is being discussed. But I do know I was disgusted when I read that.

Fair enough, but I did state that I didnt want their deaths to be the contributing factor to that. Them fading into irellevance would have been preferred. No ones happy over anyone dying nor would anyone willingly give up anothers life for Jay-Z.

If someone came to you and said "Your favorite artist can no longer make music, because these two guys will be doing so instead" How would you react? I doubt you'd have a positive reaction to that. It was never about them dying, it was a general hypothetical that could be applied to any other artist, the two artists in question just so happened to die(again no ones cool with them dying, at least I'm not)

 

[illphillip]

I don't have that level of attachment to my "favorite artist" that I think I'd even care that much.

I never looked at it as Jay wouldn't have been able to make music, but that he wouldn't have been as large or had the "career" he's had.

Especially since Jay had a a good thing going before BIG and Pac died.

 

[illphillip]

 i call a spade a spade


horrible comparison. Ja Rule was doin Pac mixed wit some sing songy type ish an his flow was meh...the gimmicks why cats aint take him srsly

Mase was doin him. only similarity would be mainstream/pop soundin records but Mase was actually spittin. nobody questioned his pen game

The crazy thing is Ja was running with X and Jay at one point when they were supposed to do that Murder Inc. project and they did that infamous XXL front and back cover.

When Ja dropped "Holla Holla", he wasn't really on that sing song steez. And he was that new dude with the hot record. CLEARLY following in DMXs footsteps.

It's funny that we're arguing about this because this is what Jay has done for a lot of his run.

Align himself with the hot dude/chick/crew etc and often look outside of his own crew.

BIG
X/Ruff Ryders
EM on Blueprint
Ski/Preme to Just/Kanye to Neptunes/Timbo as producers. Even had Puff and his crew on American Gangster.
Signing Nas after the beef (great press/publicity move when they were on stage together). Puff and Nas in the "Roc Boys" video.
Kanye on WTT (remember, he didn't believe in Kanye at first and now they tight)
Beyonce
Coldplay
Justin Timberlake

It's part of his genius though and I think a BIG key to his longevity.

 

[antidope]

I don't have that level of attachment to my "favorite artist" that I think I'd even care that much.

I never looked at it as Jay wouldn't have been able to make music, but that he wouldn't have been as large or had the "career" he's had.

Especially since Jay had a a good thing going before BIG and Pac died.

I guess I'm in the minority because I do. Shrugs

Neither did I but it was the argument that was being presented at the beginning of the thread. Or maybe I misinterpreted something.

 

[510thanos]

The crazy thing is Ja was running with X and Jay at one point when they were supposed to do that Murder Inc. project and they did that infamous XXL front and back cover.

When Ja dropped "Holla Holla", he wasn't really on that sing song steez. And he was that new dude with the hot record. CLEARLY following in DMXs footsteps.

It's funny that we're arguing about this because this is what Jay has done for a lot of his run.

Align himself with the hot dude/chick/crew etc and often look outside of his own crew.

BIG
X/Ruff Ryders
EM on Blueprint
Ski/Preme to Just/Kanye to Neptunes/Timbo as producers. Even had Puff and his crew on American Gangster.
Signing Nas after the beef (great press/publicity move when they were on stage together). Puff and Nas in the "Roc Boys" video.
Kanye on WTT (remember, he didn't believe in Kanye at first and now they tight)
Beyonce

Coldplay

Justin Timberlake

It's part of his genius though and I think a BIG key to his longevity.

u forgot Jaz-O he gave him his first look and Foxy who was the only reason "aint no ni**a" was a hit even if jay did write it.

i think the Beyonce thing was the biggest move tho. he pulled out every gimmick possible rappin over a dead legend song, puttin the pop princess on it and talkin about they boyfriend /girlfriend relationship. He was like #1 on the charts or bust this time

 

[killa07]

u forgot Jaz-O he gave him his first look and Foxy who was the only reason "aint no ni**a" was a hit even if jay did write it.

i think the Beyonce thing was the biggest move tho. he pulled out every gimmick possible rappin over a dead legend song, puttin the pop princess on it and talkin about they boyfriend /girlfriend relationship. He was like #1 on the charts or bust this time

You know what I liked jaz o verse better then hovs verse on n*gga what and on bring it on from rd
Now that I think of it jayz stays getting killed on his own records lol

 

[illphillip]

I didn't include Jaz because he wasn't really THAT dude and they came up together. It's not like Jaz was on some RunDMC, Beasties, Eric B+Ra, Kane, BDP level at the time.

Jaz also produced "Ain't No Ni**a".

I can't really call it with Fox. I feel like they helped each other really. That was her first look. Jay did his thing on that record.

And some people already knew Jay. He was running with Kane, on records with Kane, Big L, Mic Geronimo, Original Flavor and the single "In My Lifetime" and it's flossy *** video made some noise.

 

[deuce king]

Align himself with the hot dude/chick/crew etc and often look outside of his own crew.

From that list provided, it looks like some people wanted to align themselves with Jay, meaning they were the initiators of the process.  As the saying goes, successful people always want to align themselves with successful people.  As far as Beyonce goes, what straight male wouldn't want to align themselves with her one way or another

.

 

[illphillip]

Who would you say the initiators were?

 

[-Red-]

Where is the contradiction? I'm honestly not seeing it, and if there is one I would love to clear it up. I tried to do that in my reply to you but apparently I did not.

I can't believe I'm in the position of trying to explain your own words to you.

First, you state...

if for some odd reason Jay-Z would have faded into obscurity if Big and Pac were still alive like people are suggesting then I can accept the ways things really played out

...clearly indicating that you readily "accept" the a scenario in which BIG and Pac were murdered (which was the way "things really played out") and Jay-Z subsequently had great success RATHER THAN a scenario in which BIG and Pac were not murdered and Jay-Z "fade into obscurity." There is no other way this can be interpreted.

Then you state...

I would have much preferred if they stayed alive and faded into irrelevance thus opening up the lane for Jay, but if this was really the only reason that it happened, and the only reason why he vaulted into stardom and thus made more music then what can I say? I wouldn't want Jay-Z to not have an avenue to make more music in order to keep two others around

...clearly saying that, although you don't simply wish BIG and Pac died for no reason, you wouldn't want them to have lived if it meant Jay-Z would not "have an avenue to make more music." Again, there is no other way this can be interpreted.

 

[deuce king]

Who would you say the initiators were?

X/Ruff Ryders--When I saw the word Ruff Ryders, the fist thing I thought of was the compilation album when Jay had a track on their album.  I'm more inclined to believe the Ruff Ryders, management included reached out and asked Jay to provide a track.  If that's different from what you may know, please let me know.

Kanye on WTT--Kanye asked Jay to do WTT.  So to me that's moreso Kanye being the initiator behind that particular project and Kanye reaching out to Jay.

Justin Timberlake--It's Justin Timberlake's album, so once again I'm inclined to believe that Justin reached out or had Timberland reach out to Jay in order to get him on Suit & Tie. 

 

[OG44NJ]

The fact is that Jay-z has never been the most popular rapper out in any era. People need to understand that. What he does well is market himself. Take the BK Nets for example. He had fans believing his ownership was bigger than what it was. It was less than 1% but people give him a lot of credit. The truth of it is that Bloomberg just needed a face/puppet to transform that Brooklyn area. Jay-z just happened to be the perfect fit. 

 

[illphillip]

X/Ruff Ryders--When I saw the word Ruff Ryders, the fist thing I thought of was the compilation album when Jay had a track on their album.  I'm more inclined to believe the Ruff Ryders, management included reached out and asked Jay to provide a track.  If that's different from what you may know, please let me know.

Kanye on WTT--Kanye asked Jay to do WTT.  So to me that's moreso Kanye being the initiator behind that particular project and Kanye reaching out to Jay.

Justin Timberlake--It's Justin Timberlake's album, so once again I'm inclined to believe that Justin reached out or had Timberland reach out to Jay in order to get him on Suit & Tie. 

Only one I'd really disagree with is X/Ruff Ryders really. I don't know anything persay.

But X popped off something major in 98 and after that, Jay was doing singles on a Ruff Ryders comp and X wound up on "Money, Cash, ****" in 99.

 

[antidope]

I would have much preferred if they stayed alive and faded into irrelevance thus opening up the lane for Jay, but if this was really the only reason that it happened, and the only reason why he vaulted into stardom and thus made more music then what can I say? I wouldn't want Jay-Z to not have an avenue to make more music in order to keep two others around

...clearly saying that, although you don't simply wish BIG and Pac died for no reason, you wouldn't want them to have lived if it meant Jay-Z would not "have an avenue to make more music." Again, there is no other way this can be interpreted.

See this is where the confusion lies. That is not what I meant at all and thats poor word choice on my part. I'm taking the L on this one you were right. Thats a result of me overtyping. I really mean that I just accept the way things played out. Thanks for pointing that out though, seriously. The last thing I would want to do is come off in such a manner, I'm not that kind of person. Again my aplogies to anyone that might have taken that the wrong way or was offended by it.