Let's face it, Jay-Z is the bar in which we compare rappers to because he is the best. PERIOD

[ninjahood]

 

[Master Zik]

What he's saying are two different things you're completely missing though

No I get what he's saying but his original statement is flawed because I know that he personally feels that Nas is a better rapper than Jay and that's fine cause it's his opinion of course but with that being said Jay has sold more records than Nas, so where does that leave his point of Em selling more records than Jay thus being better than Jay COMBINED with him saying Nas is more lyrical than Jay.  Had ninjahood just stuck with saying Nas is more lyrical than Jay as his argument, then maybe he could draw up an argument or discussion from that, but when he threw in the point of Em selling more records than Jay, ninjahood managed to shot himself and his thesis in the foot. 

I don't know what's so hard to understand. Those two statements do not address or contradict this question your asking. He said two things, that Jay isn't a better rapper than Nas and hasn't sold more than Em. So if this was a thread about Em he'd just say Em is not a better rapper than Nas. The two requirements ninjahood basically brought up in order to be the best rapper or at least what most ppl commonly bring up to say somebody is the best rapper Jay-Z does not meet. However, both Em and Nas would meet one of them. Nas being a better rapper than Jay has nothing to do with Em selling more than Jay.


He didn't shoot his thesis in the foot though. He's simply saying in order to be considered the best rapper you'd have to be the best lyrically or at least sell the most records. They're two different arguments, two different statements that preemptively counteract two different topics.

The final verdict of proving which rapper sold the most records is a factual statement and outcome, trying to prove who is the most lyrical rapper is still an opinionated statement whether it's given by me, ninjahood, you, or anyone else for the matter.  Record sales is somewhat apart of the equation but it's not the end all be all, especially in rap.

I know that. One was his opinion the other was fact. That's not really changing anything I said. For ninjahood he simply stated two things they're not tied together.

This guy really just said that 50 Cent and JAY-Z are on equal footing. A guy who can't get a release date and every time he drops material it gets negative reviews. Ok Ninjahood


@Master Zik that's a valid opinion and I can respect it. Agree to disagree

Okay I just seen that. I don't agree with that at all.


I will say as far as music, similar to Curtis I'm feeling Jay's music less and less the past few albums. That's the only thing almost the same. Curtis seems way more washed up and it's bad given that with his start and huge initial impact he shouldn't even be on "equal footing" with Jay if he was keeping a consistent quality output.

by stating this, you are agreeing with me, because of da trajectory 50 cent's career has taken when you stretch his decade out and compare it to jay-z's 96-2013

career they're both on da same footing. 50 cent out da gate was superman compared to jay-z..by da time 2013 50 is no longer invincible, but jay-z

was never as hotter then 50 cent at any moment in his career.

blueprint 3 with all that stan slurpage ONLY went platinum, and when when i self destruct after being

crucified by 50 cent haters claiming he "fell off" went gold after leaking a month early.

i mean please NT, educate me. what can jay-z do NOW that 50 cent CANT do in 2013? they're virtual equals.

hell if you look at that list again, jay-z had to bow down to DMX from 1998-2000, he had da crown.

Only partially in that given Curtis' start he should've had much more time in between his decline. Jay been on since what early 90s? Officially got on and known mid/late 90s. He's had a 10+ year run during a time he was like 10 years older than everybody else. It's more okay that he's declined and is making disposable albums compared to Curtis who got on in what '03? Bumrushed through the door with his crew with his best album, best mixtapes, and highest selling 2nd album in like a 6 year span, and then after that everything sucked.

To me that's more a slight on Curtis than Jay.

Yes Curtis was Supes right out the gate and that can only be compared to a few but technically Jay only got bigger after biding his time for DMX's downfall. Quality wise you can say his peak was Blueprint or sales I'd believe that's Black Album. Now Curtis was literally hot when he started but now is literally garbage. To me I don't care if he went gold on his last album or w/e, the quality is gone. Son is in the lab steady trying to recreate an In Da Club, burnt so many bridges a "diss" track garners no hype. Musically speaking, Curtis is way more washed up.

 

[miamiboy]

Max B > Jay-Z, that is all ima say,

 

[smangalang]

Jay-z has YET to make a album better then it was written or illmatic, hell Lost tapes is better then 99% of hova's discography and those were discarded Tracks

from da butchered I am... second disc.

his classic reasonable doubt is a canal street bootleg of only built for cuban linx, from da concept to da raps.

try again OP.

I ran outta rep but you're dropping science.

In regards to Blue Print any album where a rapper says "He packs heat like the oven door" automatically has a 4 mic ceiling.

 

[deuce king]

My man said "50 and Jay are on equal footing"......LOL. Bless your heart ninjahood, you tried champ......to no avail but you tried.

 

[va757va]

Reasonable Doubt was "poppin'". Yes. "Ain't No", "Dead Presidents", "Can't Knock..." were well known singles. But "Ain't No" had been rocking for a while off Nutty Professor.

But in no way, shape or form was it the classic or as highly regarded as people make it out to be TODAY.

Looking back on Jay's career, it obviously represents a milestone as it was his first album. I think that is why people appreciate it NOW.

 

neither was illmatic....illmatic came in the year 1994, got outsold by plenty of other ny rappers (no comp on the left coast)...came out in 1994 didnt go platinum until 2000.....the album yall running to is in the same boat as rd...imagine that...

blueprint >>>> ANYTHING else nas dropped by a long shot...miss me wit the story telling or this or that....

after illmatic nas had the longest run of mediocre albums ANY mainstream rapper ever seen...

it was written = ehhhh...

i am = 

nastradaumous = 

one was ehhhh, the other was illmatic...thats a one hot album...well..yall know the rest...

stillmatic and god son was solid....untitled, life is good, hip hop is dead = 'i copped ya ish, now i break weed up on it'

and lets not bring up eminem...cause if it wasnt for him aligning himself with dre, and him being white...he would still be 2nd tier..lol...

lol@somebody saying jay lined up wit ja rule and the dips to stay hot...first time i ever heard ja rule was on a jay z song..its well known jay and gotti been cool since before murder inc...and jay z put the diplomats on...dont believe me??? THE DIPS HIGHEST SELLING ALBUM WAS ON JAY Z LABEL!! its not a coincidence..

lol...that was easy

 

[va757va]

My man said "50 and Jay are on equal footing"......LOL. Bless your heart ninjahood, you tried champ......to no avail but you tried.

theyre moving the goal poasts...

first its jay z isnt as good a rapper as nas...then its eminem outsold him..then its 50 is bigger internationally...then it was if big was alive jay would be 2nd tier..lol...its this or that..whatever argument fits their current agenda, they plug it in..its never the same...

the onlly constant is jay z vs _______.  and jay holds his own against WHOMEVER your putting up there...so whats that tell you???

dude need to leave it alone, dont throw rocks at the throne...

 

[mastamind033]

^^Illmatic wasn't considered a classic or highly regarded when it dropped? You Jay fans still find ways to amaze me at times

And IWW is only ehhh? What Jay album btw RD and BP are good as IWW?

 

[antidope]

Reasonable Doubt was "poppin'". Yes. "Ain't No", "Dead Presidents", "Can't Knock..." were well known singles. But "Ain't No" had been rocking for a while off Nutty Professor.

But in no way, shape or form was it the classic or as highly regarded as people make it out to be TODAY.


Looking back on Jay's career, it obviously represents a milestone as it was his first album. I think that is why people appreciate it NOW.


 

neither was illmatic....illmatic came in the year 1994, got outsold by plenty of other ny rappers (no comp on the left coast)...came out in 1994 didnt go platinum until 2000.....the album yall running to is in the same boat as rd...imagine that...


blueprint >>>> ANYTHING else nas dropped by a long shot...miss me wit the story telling or this or that....



after illmatic nas had the longest run of mediocre albums ANY mainstream rapper ever seen...

it was written = ehhhh...

i am = 

nastradaumous = 

one was ehhhh, the other was illmatic...thats a one hot album...well..yall know the rest...




stillmatic and god son was solid....untitled, life is good, hip hop is dead = 'i copped ya ish, now i break weed up on it'



and lets not bring up eminem...cause if it wasnt for him aligning himself with dre, and him being white...he would still be 2nd tier..lol...




lol@somebody saying jay lined up wit ja rule and the dips to stay hot...first time i ever heard ja rule was on a jay z song..its well known jay and gotti been cool since before murder inc...and jay z put the diplomats on...dont believe me??? THE DIPS HIGHEST SELLING ALBUM WAS ON JAY Z LABEL!! its not a coincidence..



lol...that was easy

My man said "50 and Jay are on equal footing"......LOL. Bless your heart ninjahood, you tried champ......to no avail but you tried.

theyre moving the goal poasts...

first its jay z isnt as good a rapper as nas...then its eminem outsold him..then its 50 is bigger internationally...then it was if big was alive jay would be 2nd tier..lol...its this or that..whatever argument fits their current agenda, they plug it in..its never the same...

the onlly constant is jay z vs _______.  and jay holds his own against WHOMEVER your putting up there...so whats that tell you???





dude need to leave it alone, dont throw rocks at the throne...

View media item 259092

 

[shorty doo wop]

^^Illmatic wasn't considered a classic or highly regarded when it dropped? You Jay fans still find ways to amaze me at times

And IWW is only ehhh? What Jay album btw RD and BP are good as IWW?

Illmatic got five mics from the source when they barely ever gave that rating out

Just cause it didnt sell that great doesnt change anything about how great the album is

 

[airthompson]

I won't compared a rappers career to Jay-Z because in terms of character and ethics Jay-Z is a successful bloodsucker, and will do anything to stay relevant. Burn bridges, keep his own down, keep the best producers in his backpocket etc. That is the name of the game, and Jay-Z played it well. And the best of rappers today won't be able to achieve that longevity because the new generation of rap audiences are too fickle, and are ready to give the new hot thing the torch quickly, and label the last guy as yesterday's garbage.

Yes Jay has a great discography, lyrically nice, etc. But would his music had withstood the latest transition the game took without Kanye being his crutch to the new generation? Not really. Jay-Z is a little outta touch now IMO. His flow is either dumbed down too much for his new audience and his voice dnt sound the same. He's one of my fav rappers, but I'd always say Nas is better.

 

[illphillip]

neither was illmatic....illmatic came in the year 1994, got outsold by plenty of other ny rappers (no comp on the left coast)...came out in 1994 didnt go platinum until 2000.....the album yall running to is in the same boat as rd...imagine that...


blueprint >>>> ANYTHING else nas dropped by a long shot...miss me wit the story telling or this or that....



after illmatic nas had the longest run of mediocre albums ANY mainstream rapper ever seen...

it was written = ehhhh...

Here's how I know you're on your groupie ****. Because you replied to me....not to say that what I said was incorrect, but to go on a tangent that is insanely inaccurate.

And you're the guy claiming other people are "moving the goalpost". Laughable. And I'm laughing at anyone applauding you too. My guess is that dude is no older than 20, so what would he know about '94-'96?

Illmatic was instantly a classic when it dropped. Every song off that album was on Hot97 before it even dropped. Got 5 mics in the Source, which at the time was THE stamp of approval. "Halftime" was already huge off the Zebrahead SNDTK. "It Ain't Hard To Tell", "The World Is Yours", "Memory Lane", "One Love", "NY State Of Mind".

That album was inescapable. RD, not as much.

Sales? Really. OK. RD didn't move major units at the time either. That is a weak comparison. It may have not gone platinum until 2000. How long did it take to go Gold oh wise one?

You clearly have absolutely ZERO idea what you're talking about. So do yourself a favor and don't speak on it. You can't **** on "It Was Written" and meanwhile ninja just posted it getting the same rating as RD, higher billing, and Nas was on the cover.

If you weren't there, you wouldn't know. And since you weren't there, whatever attempt you're making to put these things in a historical context is severely off base.

Where you from? Virginia? C'mon son.....

 

[MON5T3R]

neither was illmatic....illmatic came in the year 1994, got outsold by plenty of other ny rappers (no comp on the left coast)...came out in 1994 didnt go platinum until 2000.....the album yall running to is in the same boat as rd...imagine that...


blueprint >>>> ANYTHING else nas dropped by a long shot...miss me wit the story telling or this or that....



after illmatic nas had the longest run of mediocre albums ANY mainstream rapper ever seen...

it was written = ehhhh...

Here's how I know you're on your groupie ****. Because you replied to me....not to say that what I said was incorrect, but to go on a tangent that is insanely inaccurate.

And you're the guy claiming other people are "moving the goalpost". Laughable. And I'm laughing at anyone applauding you too. My guess is that dude is no older than 20, so what would he know about '94-'96?

Illmatic was instantly a classic when it dropped. Every song off that album was on Hot97 before it even dropped. Got 5 mics in the Source, which at the time was THE stamp of approval. "Halftime" was already huge off the Zebrahead SNDTK. "It Ain't Hard To Tell", "The World Is Yours", "Memory Lane", "One Love", "NY State Of Mind".

That album was inescapable. RD, not as much.

Sales? Really. OK. RD didn't move major units at the time either. That is a weak comparison. It may have not gone platinum until 2000. How long did it take to go Gold oh wise one?

You clearly have absolutely ZERO idea what you're talking about. So do yourself a favor and don't speak on it. You can't **** on "It Was Written" and meanwhile ninja just posted it getting the same rating as RD, higher billing, and Nas was on the cover.

If you weren't there, you wouldn't know. And since you weren't there, whatever attempt you're making to put these things in a historical context is severely off base.

Where you from? Virginia? C'mon son.....

That **** that makes your soul burn slow

 

[antidope]

And you're the guy claiming other people are "moving the goalpost". Laughable. And I'm laughing at anyone applauding you too. My guess is that dude is no older than 20, so what would he know about '94-'96?

If you weren't there, you wouldn't know. And since you weren't there, whatever attempt  you're making to put these things in a historical context is severely off base.

I turned 24 last week. 7 when RD dropped, and I was not up on it. 7 year olds usually don't have that kin of access to vulgar lyrics. First JAY-Z album I ever got was Vol 2 on cassette, then Vol 3. Wasn't applauding for the comments about the climate, but more-so his assessment of Nas' albums post illmatic and the "JAY-Z" is a leech comments. I could have been born in 2000 and cosign those statements because all it takes to agree is listening to the music to form that opinion.

On another note, I don't the like the "You're not old enough for this thing" Cause its never ending. 30 years say it to me then 40 year olds say it to you " You were 12 when that dropped what did you really know" and so on and so on and so on. IDK how old you are, but Ninjahood is around 30, someone could easily say that to him. Its been brought out like 6 times in this thread already, and it just seems like grasping at straws to me. Maybe I'm wrong, after all I was 5-7 and not aware, but still, its detracting from the conversation. "You must be this tall to ride this ride" has no place amongst a conversation between adults. Notice how once the conversation started veering in that direction I stopped posting because I know how it would turn out. "You're only 24 be quiet". You guys are entitled to keep it up though, and you will anyways regardless of what I'm saying. I just wanted to respond to this since it was partially directed at me.

 

[ruxxx]

 

[illphillip]

But if we're talking about issues that pertain to a certain time period, how is that not a factor?

How can you talk about how Illmatic or RD was received if you weren't even around to see it first hand?

This has always been my issue with these ridiculous GOAT conversations. Think about what GOAT is.

Greatest of All TIME. By definition, TIME is a factor. And what is age if not a measure of....time? Your time alive.

So how can you speak on it if your time doesn't match with "ALL TIME"? Some things have to be experienced firsthand to be appreciated.

Hip Hop really started to roll in the late 70's.

Some people walking the earth have seen it's entire timeline. But it seems like moreso the people who haven't want to discuss it the most.

Just my opinion.

 

[gllahone84]

Good memories...the Jay and Nas debate at it's peak was better than discussing Big and Pac.

From like 2000 - 2001 you could feel it in the climate of hip hop. 

 

[ruxxx]

Anti the age thing comes in (or should come in) when discussing the impact a particular album/MC had.

If you weren't really old enough to be AWARE of it then how could you REALLY speak on it?

It goes beyond just hearing the music and liking it later on down the line.

(I'm NOT attacking you my man)

 

[antidope]

But if we're talking about issues that pertain to a certain time period, how is that not a factor?

How can you talk about how Illmatic or RD was received if you weren't even around to see it first hand?

This has always been my issue with these ridiculous GOAT conversations. Think about what GOAT is.

Greatest of All TIME. By definition, TIME is a factor. And what is age if not a measure of....time? Your time alive.

So how can you speak on it if your time doesn't match with "ALL TIME"? Some things have to be experienced firsthand to be appreciated.

Hip Hop really started to roll in the late 70's.

Some people walking the earth have seen it's entire timeline. But it seems like moreso the people who haven't want to discuss it the most.

Just my opinion.

This is why I dont agree with it. By placing too much importance on the time aspect of it, you effectively remove the people who want to discuss it the most from being participants in the discussions.

Some things do have to be experienced first hand to be appreciated yes, but I dont think music is one of them. Music is timeless, if it wasnt then genres like classical would have been phazed out completely. No one would be able to speak on beethoven because everyone who was around for that is dead. What would happen 50 years from now when basically everyone who was around for the birth of hip hop dies?

This conversation about 94-96 can stand, my opinions about it would mean little to most, and I can accept that. I dont agree with the overall reasoning of it all however.

Anti the age thing comes in (or should come in) when discussing the impact a particular album/MC had.

If you weren't really old enough to be AWARE of it then how could you REALLY speak on it?

It goes beyond just hearing the music and liking it later on down the line.

(I'm NOT attacking you my man)

I know youre not. I'm not saying this doesnt make sense, but where is the line drawn? Ninjahood was 10-12 when these albums dropped, whats stopping someone who was 20 at that time from writing him off. I cant make this about me personally cause I admittedly wasnt listening to rap back then , but theres no concrete age for when you should be allowed to discuss these things.

The thing about this is, that its a history topic, and you can become a historian without actually being there. Reading personal accounts, articles, watching videos etc etc, can give someone an excellent grasp on the climate at that time, which is why I dont think its fair to write VA off even if hes younger than someone like IllPhillip

 

[ruxxx]

I hear you man.

If you say "hey... I LOVE Illmatic!!!!" and you're 15 years old right now then that's dope... BUT... if you're 15 years old right now and attempting to discuss the IMPACT that album had as if you were actually there?

*HustleMan voice*NAH CHIEF!*HustleMan voice*

That's where I was going with my previous comment.

 

[the natural mystic]

But if we're talking about issues that pertain to a certain time period, how is that not a factor?

How can you talk about how Illmatic or RD was received if you weren't even around to see it first hand?

This has always been my issue with these ridiculous GOAT conversations. Think about what GOAT is.

Greatest of All TIME. By definition, TIME is a factor. And what is age if not a measure of....time? Your time alive.

So how can you speak on it if your time doesn't match with "ALL TIME"? Some things have to be experienced firsthand to be appreciated.

Hip Hop really started to roll in the late 70's.

Some people walking the earth have seen it's entire timeline. But it seems like moreso the people who haven't want to discuss it the most.

Just my opinion.

But if we're talking about issues that pertain to a certain time period, how is that not a factor?

How can you talk about how Illmatic or RD was received if you weren't even around to see it first hand?

This has always been my issue with these ridiculous GOAT conversations. Think about what GOAT is.

Greatest of All TIME. By definition, TIME is a factor. And what is age if not a measure of....time? Your time alive.

So how can you speak on it if your time doesn't match with "ALL TIME"? Some things have to be experienced firsthand to be appreciated.

Hip Hop really started to roll in the late 70's.

Some people walking the earth have seen it's entire timeline. But it seems like moreso the people who haven't want to discuss it the most.

Just my opinion.

Truth.

I still believe if Jay never called himself the GOAT then nobody would be calling him that. It was a great marketing ploy tho.

IWW=ehhh? IWW, the infamous, OB4QL >>>RD

 

[illphillip]

This is why I dont agree with it. By placing too much importance on the time aspect of it, you effectively remove the people who want to discuss it the most from being participants in the discussions.

Some things do have to be experienced first hand to be appreciated yes, but I dont think music is one of them. Music is timeless, if it wasnt then genres like classical would have been phazed out completely. No one would be able to speak on beethoven because everyone who was around for that is dead. What would happen 50 years from now when basically everyone who was around for the birth of hip hop dies?

Yes, but are we having "Beethoven>Mozart" discussion? No, we're not. The conversations were having aren't about the appreciation of the music. Or it's timelessness.

Music in and of itself will always be appreciated. The smart dudes in here appreciate Jay, appreciate Nas, and aren't so much making it a competition between the 2. I made my comment about RD and ONLY about RD. And here comes someone talking about Illmatic.

Why?

The conversations were having are discussing it's impact UPON release. You're kind of confusing what we're debating here.

And keep in mind, my debate is not the same as everyone else's in here.

You don't think music needs to be experienced firsthand? If you really think people are listening to music in a vacuum, you're fooling yourself.

You don't love Jay-Z JUST for his songs. If you don't want to admit that, fine. This is the point a lot of people have made in here. People view Jay as a larger than life "artist", not just for his music, but also for all of the things happening outside of the music. It's part of the reason why people who admire him, admire him. Because of his "success story".

Beatlemania. Michael Jackson starting riots everywhere he goes. This is part of the experience of music. Not just the songs themselves, no matter how great they be. That song that played when you first made out with the older girl upstairs is more special. The song that played when you first got laid. The soundtrack to your youth.

All of these things play a factor in how you ingest music and honestly, your age, where you were at the time etc. are all factors.

I don't expect you to appreciate Rakim. But "rap historians"....well many of them rank him #1 on their list of Top MCs. Doesn't mean they're right. But they ain't wrong.

 

[Baby Face Nelson]

I know youre not. I'm not saying this doesnt make sense, but where is the line drawn? Ninjahood was 10-12 when these albums dropped, whats stopping someone who was 20 at that time from writing him off. I cant make this about me personally cause I admittedly wasnt listening to rap back then , but theres no concrete age for when you should be allowed to discuss these things.

The thing about this is, that its a history topic, and you can become a historian without actually being there. Reading personal accounts, articles, watching videos etc etc, can give someone an excellent grasp on the climate at that time, which is why I dont think its fair to write VA off even if hes younger than someone like IllP
The reason age gets brought up is because some people were too young to realize the impact some of these albums had on Hip-Hop culture as a whole. When illmatic dropped in 94, all you heard about was how hot Meth's album was or how this Warren G dude from the West is doing crazy numbers, or how BIG is the future. When that Source magazine came out and gave illmatic 5 mics off jump, you knew it was special because at that time only 3 other albums had gotten it before Nas at that time. So I was around and aware when RD dropped and no one was checking for it like that because so many other dope albums were out that same year. I'm not hating I am calling it how I saw it when it was dropped. When I first heard RD, the first thing I recall was I've heard this before, and I've heard it recently. Then it hit me, I've heard it before a year earlier on "The Purple Tape" and the year before that off of Biggie's album. You younger kids hear "I dumbed down for my audience to double my dollars" and think it's genius when in fact it's making the art look back. Do you think KRS-ONE, Rakim, Cannibus, Nas or Eminem would of spit a line like that, but he's suppose to be the greatest? This is a forum and everything from all ages and races have a voice put some of y'all just show your ignorance and age but your baseless comments. I guess it's just a different era, when I was growing up it wasn't about record sales, Youtube views or Twitter followers to determine who was the best rapper, it was about the message and the impact it had. If you weren't there or too young to realize it, your statements don't hold that much weight.

 

[Peep Game]

I was 7 when 'Ready To Die' dropped. Boy that was something having that album then

 

[Bend_The_Knee]

I was 7 when 'Ready To Die' dropped. Boy that was something having that album then

You went from that to buying Paul Wall, MGK & Big Cynthia CDs. The hell happened Peep?