***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[layziegunts]

Im a 38 yo black who is an immigrant in NYC, for the life of me I cannot understand conservatives in America. I just cant, like how is all of this possible? Its all lies, ********, Maga and Donald Trump.

I have a few peers that say they are voting for Trump in 2024 and have they not seen enough to know thats a BAD IDEA?

 

[Platinum State]

Im gonna be sick if Trump wins somehow. Only reason he won in 2016 was because Hillary is so hated. If anyone else ran for the dems I bet he would've never became president
I guess people vote for him because he speaks his mind and choose to believe his lies. He's basically their idol and what they wish they could be.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

This country is disgusting with how it treats women. Whitmer would have a lower chance than Hillary. What she is doing in Michigan is ELITE but this country’s disdain for women (white women would probably vote for the Republican) will make it a hard trek.

Yah I don't agree. Hillary Clinton had pretty distinct weaknesses as a politician that were unrelated to being a woman.

I don't see why Whitmer would be able to win a competitive swing state like Michigan, have less baggage than Hillary and somehow have a lower chance than Hilary?

That seems crazy.

I don't think Americas disdain for women is strong enough where it can't be overcome by a really good politician.

And you have to be one to win the presidency anyways.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Im guessing Andy Breasher gunna run for president.

but if he didn't could he win the senate a la Joe Manchin?


with Roe V. Wade over with, the salience of the courts I think has dramatically lowered for conservative voters.
a moderate governor with a strong personal brand could maybe pull it off?

Most likely, in 99% of possible scenarios, no.

He would lose.

Lose by a decent margin

 

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[elpablo21]

Is that supposed to be a bad thing?

 

[aepps20]

Yah I don't agree. Hillary Clinton had pretty distinct weaknesses as a politician that were unrelated to being a woman.

I don't see why Whitmer would be able to win a competitive swing state like Michigan, have less baggage than Hillary and somehow have a lower chance than Hilary?

That seems crazy.

I don't think Americas disdain for women is strong enough where it can't be overcome by a really good politician.

And you have to be one to win the presidency anyways.

What were those weaknesses? Prior to both Presidential runs she was extremely popular so could you lay out what those weaknesses were that only became a problem when she ran for president?

I would agree if Hillary wasn’t a popular Senator and at one point in time had the highest approval rating of anyone in Obama’s administration during his presidency. When she left as SOS she had a 69% approval rating. I think the narrative on Hillary that she wasn't a really good politician is unfair. She was very good at all levels of politics. She could do it all and would've been the most qualified President of all time. Hillary is similar to Nancy in her effectiveness and how they get dragged now and hated on now but will be looked at favorably by history. Both her and Nancy got less popular the more the Republicans got on them. Strong and intelligent women in politics scare people especially when they are in powerful positions. Look at what they're doing with Kamala? Kamala is being treated just like Hillary. TBH I think it will take a once in a generation candidate like we had with Obama to break the glass ceiling. Could Witmer be that? She could be but I don't know.

Don't you find it weird that Hillary didn't become mainstream super unpopular until she ran for the second time and the Republicans ran that Benghazi hit job on her, Putin's disinformation band started playing and Comey screwed it up? My point is that when the Republican machine gets going your unfavorables go up. I can only imagine the Congressional hearings into the weaponization of government on Whitmer. They might interview her would be kidnappers and cast them as the victim.

Women in American politics are held to a different standard. Witmer's blended family, how she handled her state during COVID, and the kidnap attempt will all be weaponized against her. Look at what is happening to Joe and this Hunter Biden nonsense. You layer in mysogony, the increase in political polarization and lower approvals than Hillary had as a Senator, it is not a stretch to see Witmer having a harder time than Hillary.

 

[Fozz]

Loved reading all the election results this morning.

All quiet on the MAGA front on my end today lololol.

 

[elpablo21]

 

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[Fozz]

A night full of L's and they continue to waste more time. Unbelievable.

 

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[osh kosh bosh]

What were those weaknesses? Prior to both Presidential runs she was extremely popular so could you lay out what those weaknesses were that only became a problem when she ran for president?

The like 30 years of the "evil corrupt Clinton family" narrative fox news and the entire right media ecosystem had been tirelessly broadcasting....

Multiple books, documentaries, endless hours of prime time television reinforcing this idea.

And then the mainstream media essentially endorsing a weak version of this narrative with the coverage of the email server debacle.

And the general anti establishment/incombent turn of key swing states.

I think any person man or woman with the last name Clinton is going to have a tough time remaining popular in the face of all that.
I just don't see being a woman as the primary factor.


And I def don't think we should assume Gretchen Whitmer would do worse.

Don't you find it weird that Hillary didn't become mainstream super unpopular until she ran for the second time and the Republicans ran that Benghazi hit job on her, Putin's disinformation band started playing and Comey screwed it up? My point is that when the Republican machine gets going your unfavorables go up. I can only imagine the Congressional hearings into the weaponization of government on Whitmer. They might interview her would be kidnappers and cast them as the victim.

You can do the same thing about men;

"Don't you find it weird Mitt Romney was a super popular centrist governor untill he ran for president against Barack Obama?"

"The liberal mainstream media machine tarred him as a mysoginist, and made it seem like he hated regular Americans" ect ect...

Being a woman has unique challenges but I don't see any reason to think it's some decisive factor that can't be overcome by a talented politician.

Which you have to be to become president.

Man or woman your opponents will run unfair attacks to make you look as bad as possible. It can be overcome if you are a good enough politician.

Women in American politics are held to a different standard. Witmer's blended family, how she handled her state during COVID, and the kidnap attempt will all be weaponized against her. Look at what is happening to Joe and this Hunter Biden nonsense. You layer in mysogony, the increase in political polarization and lower approvals than Hillary had as a Senator, it is not a stretch to see Witmer having a harder time than Hillary.

And somehow she's remained popular in a swing state. Something Hilary never had to do.

Laura Kelly is a democrat is the 16th most popular Govener in Kansas. Janet Mills is popular in Maine.

again of course there is sexism, of course women face some unique challenges but I think it's a bit doomerist to assume that Whitmer would do worse than Clinton simply because she's a woman.

 

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[RustyShackleford]

Hillary Clinton popular when she let the Secretary of State position.

It's time for the media to admit that Hillary Clinton is popular

Vox is a general interest news site for the 21st century. Its mission: to help everyone understand our complicated world, so that we can all help shape it. In text, video and audio, our reporters explain politics, policy, world affairs, technology, culture, science, the climate crisis, money...

www.vox.com

Even after Benghazi and the initial news of the email server, she looked to be in good position.

It was the Presidential media cycle that dragged her down. From the right, far left, and mainstream media.

People acting like it was a known thing beforehand that Clinton would be so unpopular come election day are being dishonest.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Also, I honestly don't know how Whitmer will perform.

She will have some advantages that Clinton did not have.

But she in weaker in Clinton in other places, that she would need to even get the nomination.

And we don't know what opposition research and time as the frontrunner will do to her favorbility.

Seems to early to call it.

 

[rexanglorum]

The like 30 years of the "evil corrupt Clinton family" narrative fox news and the entire right media ecosystem had been tirelessly broadcasting....

Multiple books, documentaries, endless hours of prime time television reinforcing this idea.

And then the mainstream media essentially endorsing a weak version of this narrative with the coverage of the email server debacle.

And the general anti establishment/incombent turn of key swing states.

I think any person man or woman with the last name Clinton is going to have a tough time remaining popular in the face of all that.
I just don't see being a woman as the primary factor.


And I def don't think we should assume Gretchen Whitmer would do worse.




You can do the same thing about men;

"Don't you find it weird Mitt Romney was a super popular centrist governor untill he ran for president against Barack Obama?"

"The liberal mainstream media machine tarred him as a mysoginist, and made it seem like he hated regular Americans" ect ect...

Being a woman has unique challenges but I don't see any reason to think it's some decisive factor that can't be overcome by a talented politician.

Which you have to be to become president.

Man or woman your opponents will run unfair attacks to make you look as bad as possible. It can be overcome if you are a good enough politician.



And somehow she's remained popular in a swing state. Something Hilary never had to do.

Laura Kelly is a democrat is the 16th most popular Govener in Kansas. Janet Mills is popular in Maine.

again of course there is sexism, of course women face some unique challenges but I think it's a bit doomerist to assume that Whitmer would do worse than Clinton simply because she's a woman.

I think that those of us who are highly engaged underestimate how a lot of moderate to low engagement voters think.

People like us here, love chasing the high of being proven right. Fact checking websites, shows like John Oliver’s or the “ West Wing,” and “wonk” content is like pornography. “Actually politician y voted for more high speed rail funding than politician x despite what you claimed, checkmate you unlettered moron.” or worse yet, you’re a highly engaged conservative who has become incapable of anything but in-group signaling “the woke Disney, WEF agenda is trying to do our children what they already did to the frogs.” And if you’re on the left “ah, what you fail to realize is that (completely irrelevant abstract) is in contradiction with (another completely irrelevant abstract). “ it’s bewildering to normal people.

Normal people vote based on vibes. Like the highly engaged, a majority of moderate to low info voters have an understanding of broadly what each party represents. So even those groups already sort themselves to a great extent. But some don’t and they vote based on the general vibe of either major party and/or candidate. They are the voters that are up for grabs. And in large part of the country, the local economy is in decline. And while the Trumpist narrative of salt of the earth sons of toil voting for Trump was mostly untrue and is an example of movement conservatism voicing a desire to have every white person without a college degree and/or Capital become a solid rightwing voting bloc. So economics did play a role in Trump beating Clinton but in different ways than the MSM’s simplistic claims that blue collar workers were tricked into thinking that Trump could solve their economic problems.

First, the Clinton name is dirt in much of the country. It’s associated with decline for much of the country outside of major metro areas. Defenders of Clinton pointed out that “she’s not her husband.” Literally and in a policy sense, true, but low to moderately engaged voters did not agree in many cases. They saw either their household or those of their neighbors lose the comfort and, even more importantly, stability and vibrancy of their small towns really started bleeding away in the 90’s and it’s only gotten worse since. So to your point, those who simply vote off of vibes and correlations (rather than causations) basically said no to another Clinton.

Second, racism and xenophobia are staples of American life and are frequently used as blame for very real economic decline. Donald Trump’s most reliable base of support were fairly well off people who lived in generally declining parts of the country. And since they’re petty bourgeoisie, they can’t blame capitalism so they have to make up conspiracy theories based on the idea that elites are trying to turn their kids and grand kids into the other, the elites want to turn your kids gay, trans, and femme all while mongrelizing them racially and culturally.

And if any of the 2016 or 2020 nominees were elected president. They’d face the same problems that Biden is facing. If it were President Bernie Sanders, he’d maybe do a little more than Biden but not enough to fundamentally reverse the declines in life span or the ascent of precarious, low wage employment that is especially prevalent in places that Trump won. I’d be pointing out that President Sanders did x amount of high speed railroad funding and y amount of grants for clean energy and the median voter, if they are being honest, would say that the decline has not been reversed. As a result a President Sanders would have the stink of decline attached to himself when seeking re-election.

When Hillary Clinton ran in 2016, she was running as if she were an incumbent but she didn’t realize that she had picked up her husband’s stink of decline. To be president in the last 30-35 years is to unwittingly become the face of decline for many Americans.

Someone like Whitmer would have a good chance with swing voters because in every State but Michigan, she’s not associated with decline and would be a great candidate even in a country as patriarchal as ours.

 

[Methodical Management]

It’s nice to see that even someone like Ron DeSantis can embrace his true self.



Meatball Ron brings his entire self to work.

Plus several feet more.

I love politics being inserted into stuff that has nothing to do with politics.

yeah dude, the polarization is annoying.

Because you’re black do you enjoy having people whisper in your ear “prices are gonna get worse with Biden” when you check out at Costco? (Has happened to me)

I wasn’t talking that deep dude, politics doesn’t need to be in EVERYTHING. There’s a time and a place.

I don’t like trump for the same reasons you don’t. I don’t like Biden because he’s not far enough left for me.

The option, much less the expectation, to be unbothered by "politics" is really only available to those whose identities are the most normative and least vulnerable in our society.

I hear this all the time in moderation circles: that "politics are divisive" and it's easier/more pragmatic to just prohibit political discussions "for the sake of harmony." This favors what Dr. King refers to as the false peace that is the absence of tension over the true peace which represents the presence of justice.

It also demonstrates a heavy status quo bias.


For example: if most of us in this thread were to talk about playing high school basketball, you'd probably say that's not a political topic. Yet, if a trans woman chose to participate by discussing why she can't play high school basketball, suddenly that's political?

If a woman walks into the cafeteria of an all-boys school, the idea that she's introducing sex or gender into that environment is kind of like saying that dropping an object from a height is "creating" gravity. It identifies marginalized/oppressed groups as the source of tension rather than the status quo, within which people feel most "comfortable" and uninhibited among like kinds.

Here's how one of the wealthiest companies in the entire world chose to enact this as policy when moderating its internal Slack channels: https://www.businessinsider.com/app...employee-message-boards-messages-show-2023-11

They treated the ongoing violence/ethnic cleansing in Gaza as the Both Sides Super Bowl and outright barred worker access to Muslim and Jewish channels at a time when many people in those communities needed them most, because they'd gotten "too political"/"divisive."

I and others got it locked because I was talking how to study for a drug test.

For some reason niketalk chose companies over freedom.

The "freedom" to take notes on a criminal conspiracy?

That’s that new Meth approach smh

I guess you can always go back to HT. Oh wait...

 

[aepps20]

The like 30 years of the "evil corrupt Clinton family" narrative fox news and the entire right media ecosystem had been tirelessly broadcasting....

Multiple books, documentaries, endless hours of prime time television reinforcing this idea.

And then the mainstream media essentially endorsing a weak version of this narrative with the coverage of the email server debacle.

And the general anti establishment/incombent turn of key swing states.

I think any person man or woman with the last name Clinton is going to have a tough time remaining popular in the face of all that.
I just don't see being a woman as the primary factor.


And I def don't think we should assume Gretchen Whitmer would do worse.




You can do the same thing about men;

"Don't you find it weird Mitt Romney was a super popular centrist governor untill he ran for president against Barack Obama?"

"The liberal mainstream media machine tarred him as a mysoginist, and made it seem like he hated regular Americans" ect ect...

Being a woman has unique challenges but I don't see any reason to think it's some decisive factor that can't be overcome by a talented politician.

Which you have to be to become president.

Man or woman your opponents will run unfair attacks to make you look as bad as possible. It can be overcome if you are a good enough politician.



And somehow she's remained popular in a swing state. Something Hilary never had to do.

Laura Kelly is a democrat is the 16th most popular Govener in Kansas. Janet Mills is popular in Maine.

again of course there is sexism, of course women face some unique challenges but I think it's a bit doomerist to assume that Whitmer would do worse than Clinton simply because she's a woman.

I don't disagree with some of your points. My point is that I think we need to make the distinction between state favorability and national favorability. State politics are local and you can sometimes overcome your party affiliation and other negatives because people in your state know you and appreciate what you do locally. National politics don't give that benefit of the doubt. You mentioned the 30 year hit job on the Clintons but why was Hillary's approval ratings when she was in government higher than Witmer's are right now? Michigan was a solid blue state for years so the fact it is a swing state is a problem.


I think that mysogony is a huge problem and is a big reason that Trump beat Hillary. Sadly the mysogony is coming from white against themselves. Witmer could overcome it but this country disappoints too often to hope. That being said I hope that I'm wrong.

 

[IATT]

 

[DaKidFromHaiti]

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Hillary Clinton popular when she let the Secretary of State position.

It's time for the media to admit that Hillary Clinton is popular

Vox is a general interest news site for the 21st century. Its mission: to help everyone understand our complicated world, so that we can all help shape it. In text, video and audio, our reporters explain politics, policy, world affairs, technology, culture, science, the climate crisis, money...

www.vox.com

Even after Benghazi and the initial news of the email server, she looked to be in good position.

It was the Presidential media cycle that dragged her down. From the right, far left, and mainstream media.

People acting like it was a known thing beforehand that Clinton would be so unpopular come election day are being dishonest.

To be clear I'm not saying it was obvious at the time.

I'm saying this looking backwards, post mortem.


All I'm saying Clinton is a pretty unique situation and I don't think you can say based on that a popular female Govener will def do worse than her.

I don't know how Whitmer will do but I wouldn't write her off because she's a woman.