***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[IATT]

 

[IATT]

 

[IATT]

 

[Based Jesus]

Surefire way to get back the tiktok vote?

 

[osh kosh bosh]

I think Joe has to get out in front of this and clearly articulate what his policy is. It is a delicate dance but right now others are framing what his policy is based on comments that he’s made. I understand why he publicly supported and continues to support Bibi. However, you and I know that he is pushing Bibi behind the scenes to not go full out and he's trying to limit the death. More work behind the scenes is being done but if Joe doesn't talk about it people think he doesn't care. A vast majority of Muslim Americans in Michigan will vote for Joe but if clarifying what his policy actually is and the behind the scenes work he is doing will help even one voter vote then it is worth it.

Joe and Dems in general don't strut their stuff enough and not so humble brag about the good they do for Americans. When you sit back the bad guys frame everything against you.

Yeah but, I feel like he literally did this.

imo I think people are just stating their own personal policy preferences on Isreal-palestine,
and pretending that it's just good politics.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Like if I was king of America id prob, stop with aid to Israel and sanction them for the West Bank settlements.

but im not going to sit here and tell you, "oh Joe Biden needs to adopt my policy preference or he's gunna lose Michigan."

 

[aepps20]

Yeah but, I feel like he literally did this.

imo I think people are just stating their own personal policy preferences on Isreal-palestine,
and pretending that it's just good politics.

I’m glad he did this. Messaging has been really poor on this front

 

[aepps20]

 

[gry60]

The implication was that Joe Bidens policy in Israel will lose him Arab Americans and thus will lose him Michigan.

The implication was that there's a risk of that happening.

The White House did reach out to Arab Americans early during the crisis, but the public message out of these meetings was tone deaf. There have been articles published about Muslim government workers feeling left out of the conversation, to the point where folks resigned due to the early position of the State department and the WH.

And we're talking about entire family lineages being eradicated by the Israeli response. That has to leave a bad taste in the mouth of many of these folks, who, prior to October 7th, heavily supported Joe and Democrats.

There's plenty of time for Trump to outdo the debacle that was the early position of the US, but we can't pretend that the US putting pressure on Israel after they've killed ten times as many Palestinians as they lost will reflect well on Biden among Arab-Americans.

 

[gry60]

That interaction showed me that we have to appeal to everyone in our base and give them hope.

This is the part that is not captured by numbers.

A lot of Palestinian Americans lost entire families here. and they're being treated like mere numbers. If you're not affected by this conflict like they are, you can't expect them to judge Joe and Don by the same parameters you use.

I think that if the Biden administration had shown the Arab American community a similar level of compassion he's shown to the Jewish American community, a lot more of them would've reacted differently to the WH official position, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[dragicon]

I feel like one of my friends spammed my email as a prank, and now I get these ads for trump “gifts” sent to me all the time. I found this one hilarious though… it says never surrender often on the “mugshot trading card”…. Then on the back it says he surrendered.

 

[Sharpshoeter13]

Lmao Nimrata thinks she’s slick. Good for the kid for being honest.

 

[rexanglorum]

I think that the White House is simply unable to comprehend how much the Israel-Gaza conflict is a political litmus test for large swaths of Democratic voters, especially those who are young, poorer, and shut out politically and economically.

It is seen as a test of how our politicians think of relations between the powerful and powerless.

Democratic politicians are seen as talking a good game on social justice within domestic politics (and they sometimes do deliver) but only because domestic policy is at least partially guided by some degree of popular will.

Foreign policy is seen as far more removed from popular input and foreign policy is where we can really see a politicians true values.

The Democratic President has seemingly revealed that an elite minority that hoards everything and denies everything to the masses and upholds this system through intense violence, surveillance, and the threat of further privations, are not only legally in the right but the rapacious settlers and hoarders are somehow the victims or at least the primary victims of the efforts by the dispossessed to survive and have a future.

How Democratic politicians behave on this issue is seen as a preview of how they will response here in the US when climate change and the loss of dollar primacy wanes and those two factors make existing conflicts over resources here in the US more pronounced and violent. When you’re worried about US Empire coming home in the near future and by virtue of being marginalized/poor, you’ll get herded into similar food and water and medicine deprived open area prisons, EVEN the prospect of Donald Trump having a second term seems pretty insignificant when you’re thinking about politics at the level of mere survival in the near future.

The Democratic Party is simply not seen as a protector when its most prominent politicians is seen as aiding and abetting a violently, hierarchical, apartheid state.


I don’t 100% agree with the above analysis but I think it’s not helpful to tell those people that the alternative to this is simply Donald Trump. Donald Trump is a threat to our future but that’s not a compelling argument for those who believe that neither major Party can provide a safe and stable future.

 

[dacomeup]

Yea, it completely strips the nuance from the conversation when you say “I don’t think Arab Americans are irrational”. There are tons of people who are just fed up, and seeing the violence funded and emboldened by the Democratic Party establishment, the unwavering loyalty to AIPAC — whether you think it’s rational or not it’s a realistic outcome where Arab Americans in swing states don’t come out to vote.

 

[rexanglorum]

It may just be wishful thinking but I do think Trump will be defeated probably more soundly than many of us would guess. The lesser evils argument will largely overcome the very real concerns around many Democratic politicians’ approach to Palestine.

It’ll also be helped by the fact that Trump is going to go out of his way to be visibly, loudly, way worse than Biden on this issue.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

The implication was that there's a risk of that happening.

I think you are dramatically overstating the risk, to buttress the case for your own policy preferences.

The White House did reach out to Arab Americans early during the crisis, but the public message out of these meetings was tone deaf. There have been articles published about Muslim government workers feeling left out of the conversation, to the point where folks resigned due to the early position of the State department and the WH.

So because Muslim white house staffers, and elite group a highly informed people felt left out, it means Biden could lose Michigan?

yah im still skeptical.

And we're talking about entire family lineages being eradicated by the Israeli response. That has to leave a bad taste in the mouth of many of these folks, who, prior to October 7th, heavily supported Joe and Democrats.

again this sounds like you want a different policy. and its not about politics or messaging.

There's plenty of time for Trump to outdo the debacle that was the early position of the US, but we can't pretend that the US putting pressure on Israel after they've killed ten times as many Palestinians as they lost will reflect well on Biden among Arab-Americans.

again maybe you have a lower opinion of Arab Americans than I do.
but I just don't think they are that dumb.

If you are a single issue "be nice to arabs and Palestinian voter" you should vote for Biden 100 times our of 100.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Yea, it completely strips the nuance from the conversation when you say “I don’t think Arab Americans are irrational”. There are tons of people who are just fed up, and seeing the violence funded and emboldened by the Democratic Party establishment, the unwavering loyalty to AIPAC — whether you think it’s rational or not it’s a realistic outcome where Arab Americans in swing states don’t come out to vote.

"here are tons of people who are just fed up, and seeing the violence funded and emboldened by the Democratic Party" so the...they wil...vote for...Donald Trump??

that doesn't sound implausible to you?


also define "tons", I think foreign policy is generally the least salient issue for voters.
I don't actually think there are "tons" of Foreign policy voters out there.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Kinda feels like the criticisms of Biden are jumping back and forth between a policy discussion and a political strategy one.

Muslim Americans in swing states might cost Biden the election, it could. But with 11 months to go until the election, I just don't think anyone can confidently make that argument just yet.

Plus, it would have to be a salient issue at election time for that it happen.

To be honest, if we are talking about turnout, voters flipping on the margin, and frustrations in the Democratic coalition possibly sinking Biden. I am far more concerned about black voters.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

I think that the White House is simply unable to comprehend how much the Israel-Gaza conflict is a political litmus test for large swaths of Democratic voters, especially those who are young, poorer, and shut out politically and economically.

It is seen as a test of how our politicians think of relations between the powerful and powerless.

yah im sorry i think you constructing a made up reality where your policy preferences are also politically advantageous.

like would you bet? what do you define as a "large swaths"
you think in the next elections exit polls there will be 20%+ "large swaths" of democratic voters who will list isreal-palestine as there top reason for voting?

Democratic politicians are seen as talking a good game on social justice within domestic politics (and they sometimes do deliver) but only because domestic policy is at least partially guided by some degree of popular will.

Foreign policy is seen as far more removed from popular input and foreign policy is where we can really see a politicians true values.

The Democratic President has seemingly revealed that an elite minority that hoards everything and denies everything to the masses and upholds this system through intense violence, surveillance, and the threat of further privations, are not only legally in the right but the rapacious settlers and hoarders are somehow the victims or at least the primary victims of the efforts by the dispossessed to survive and have a future.

How Democratic politicians behave on this issue is seen as a preview of how they will response here in the US when climate change and the loss of dollar primacy wanes and those two factors make existing conflicts over resources here in the US more pronounced and violent. When you’re worried about US Empire coming home in the near future and by virtue of being marginalized/poor, you’ll get herded into similar food and water and medicine deprived open area prisons, EVEN the prospect of Donald Trump having a second term seems pretty insignificant when you’re thinking about politics at the level of mere survival in the near future.

The Democratic Party is simply not seen as a protector when its most prominent politicians is seen as aiding and abetting a violently, hierarchical, apartheid state.

are we talkin about america?? can you show me some polling data that shows, Climate Change are foreign policy are huge drivers of election outcomes or presidential approval?
Im just having are hard time believing any of this.

 

[rexanglorum]

Kinda feels like the criticisms of Biden are jumping back and forth between a policy discussion and a political strategy one.

Muslim Americans in swing states might cost Biden the election, it could. But with 11 months to go until the election, I just don't think anyone can confidently make that argument just yet.

To be honest, if we are talking about turnout, voters flipping on the margin, and frustrations in the Democratic coalition possible sinking Biden. I am far more concerned about black voters.

Really? What are the major factors causing Biden problems with black voters?

I’d guess problems with generally entropy associated with incumbency, younger voting feeling cynical/unmotivated, and Trump’s ability to appeal to alienated young men. But none of those are unique to black voters.

What’s Biden potential problem with Black voter turnout specifically?

 

[rexanglorum]

yah im sorry i think you constructing a made up reality where your policy preferences are also politically advantageous.

like would you bet? what do you define as a "large swaths"
you think in the next elections exit polls there will be 20%+ "large swaths" of democratic voters who will list isreal-palestine as there top reason for voting?




are we talkin about america?? can you show me some polling data that shows, Climate Change are foreign policy are huge drivers of election outcomes or presidential approval?
Im just having are hard time believing any of this.

I thought I went far enough to emphasize that this is a perspective and not the perspective nor the 100% objective reality.

There’s large swaths of the Democratic Coalition, I do not understand well and avoid giving detailed analysis on.

I do, however, feel that I understand younger and/or activist voters fairly well and their critiques, from the left, of American and Democratic Party politics.

Edit: Biden’s handling of this situation acts as confirmation of the worse suspicions about him. Suspicions he had been quelling very well via a suite of progressive domestic policies prior to October 7th.

 

[dacomeup]

"here are tons of people who are just fed up, and seeing the violence funded and emboldened by the Democratic Party" so the...they wil...vote for...Donald Trump??

that doesn't sound implausible to you?


also define "tons", I think foreign policy is generally the least salient issue for voters.
I don't actually think there are "tons" of Foreign policy voters out there.

You see the last sentence where I specifically said “where Arab Americans in swing states don’t come out to vote”?

And when I say tons, I’m not specifically talking about as relates to foreign policy. The average voter isn’t super informed — people feel like the economy under Biden has been worse than Trump, Biden’s age is an issue, he didn’t deliver on student loans. These are real things that large swaths of voters feel like regardless of what the actual facts are.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

I thought I went far enough to emphasize that this is a perspective and not the perspective nor the 100% objective reality.

There’s large swaths of the Democratic Coalition, I do not understand well and avoid giving detailed analysis on.

I do, however, feel that I understand younger and/or activist voters fairly well and their critiques, from the left, of American and Democratic Party politics.

okay fair enough.

if i had to bet, im betting the younger activist class will all come home come election time.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

You see the last sentence where I specifically said “where Arab Americans in swing states don’t come out to vote”?

again stay home, vote for Donald trump, its the same thing.
I think most people are smart enough to realize that, especially in a swing state.


in a heated close campaign. and Isreal-Palestine is the most important issue to you.
Trump is on the campaign trail islamophobia on max, and they gunna just say, ah no difference between Trump and Biden imma stay home.

it doesn't seem implausible to you? especially as we get more and more distance from the start of this conflict?

 

[dacomeup]

again stay home, vote for Donald trump, its the same thing.
I think most people are smart enough to realize that, especially in a swing state.


in a heated close campaign. and Isreal-Palestine is the most important issue to you.
Trump is on the campaign trail islamophobia on max, and they gunna just say, ah no difference between Trump and Biden imma stay home.

it doesn't seem implausible to you? especially as we get more and more distance from the start of this conflict?

I don’t think people are saying there’s no difference. We literally saw people sit out, vote third party etc in 2016 and you’re acting like this is such an implausible outcome. Yes, I think it’s plausible that people sit out. Yes, I think it’s possible that saying “oh Trump is worse” isn’t enough to swing the election towards Biden in some battleground states. Especially if you’re in Michigan where there’s hostility towards a Rep who looks like you like Rashida Talib, and the establishment is making no effort to stand up for her.

Like RustyShackleford said, it’s a long way to go until November 2024. But you acting like this outcome just isn’t plausible doesn’t make sense to me.