***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[storm2006]

do better b.

That wasn't even a joke. You don't really add anything to this thread other than derailment when you keep back pedaling and moving goal posts and random movie/comic book clips. When you get into arguments, you post articles and videos that you didn't even watch and usually contradict your point. The only way that behavior can really be justified is if you're doing it for "libbie tears" and disruption to otherwise productive and intelligent discussion.

 

[Belgium]

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/robert-e-lee-opposed-confederate-monuments/

Robert E. Lee opposed Confederate monuments
At the center of the “Unite the Right” rally that turned deadly in Charlottesville last weekend was a protest of the city’s plan to remove a statue of Robert E. Lee. White supremacists, neo-Nazis and others have made monuments to the Confederate commanding general a flashpoint — at times marching to keep them standing.

But Lee himself never wanted such monuments built.

“I think it wiser,” the retired military leader wrote about a proposed Gettysburg memorial in 1869, “…not to keep open the sores of war but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered.”

Lee died in 1870, just five years after the Civil War ended, contributing to his rise as a romantic symbol of the “lost cause” for some white southerners.

But while he was alive, Lee stressed his belief that the country should move past the war. He swore allegiance to the Union and publicly decried southern separatism, whether militant or symbolic.

“It’s often forgotten that Lee himself, after the Civil War, opposed monuments, specifically Confederate war monuments,” said Jonathan Horn, the author of the Lee biography, “The Man Who Would Not Be Washington.”

In his writings, Lee cited multiple reasons for opposing such monuments, questioning the cost of a potential Stonewall Jackson monument, for example. But underlying it all was one rationale: That the war had ended, and the South needed to move on and avoid more upheaval.

“As regards the erection of such a monument as is contemplated,” Lee wrote of an 1866 proposal, “my conviction is, that however grateful it would be to the feelings of the South, the attempt in the present condition of the Country, would have the effect of ******ing, instead of accelerating its accomplishment; [and] of continuing, if not adding to, the difficulties under which the Southern people labour.”

The retired Confederate leader, a West Point graduate, was influenced by his knowledge of history.

“Lee believed countries that erased visible signs of civil war recovered from conflicts quicker,” Horn said. “He was worried that by keeping these symbols alive, it would keep the divisions alive.”

Lee himself was conflicted about the core issues of his day. He was a slave owner who some say was cruel and a general who fought to preserve the institution. But he personally described slavery as a “moral and political evil” that should end. Before the war, Lee opposed secession, but once his native Virginia voted to leave the Union he declared he was honor-bound to fight for the Confederacy.

Academics and writers vigorously debate his sentiments and strengths, but historians seem to agree on Lee’s views about memorials.

“He said he was not interested in any monuments to him or – as I recollect – to the Confederacy,” explained James Cobb, history professor emeritus at the University of Georgia, who has written about Lee’s rise as an icon.

“I don’t think that means he would have felt good about the people who fought for the Confederacy being completely forgotten,” Cobb added. “But he didn’t want a cult of personality for the South.”

Lee advocated protection of just one form of memorial: headstones in cemeteries.

“All I think that can now be done,” he wrote in 1866, “is … to protect the graves [and] mark the last resting places of those who have fallen…”

Would Lee have opposed his own monument today? Horn leaned toward yes, though he noted that it’s impossible to compare Lee’s views in the 1860s with the situation today.

“You think he’d come down in the camp that would say ‘remove the monuments,’” Horn posited. “But you have to ask why [he would remove them]. He might just want to hide the history, to move on, rather than face these issues.”

 

[whywesteppin]

look at this racist and threat to our democracy and Constitution DODGE this CHALLENGING question:

QUESTION: Was it terrorism?

Piece of **** president: Well, I think the driver of the car is a disgrace to himself, his family and his country. And that is -- you can call it terrorism. You can call it murder. You can call it whatever you want. I would just call it as the fastest one to come up with a good verdict. That's what I'd call it. Because there is a question. Is it murder? Is it terrorism? And then you get into legal semantics.

smh wow

 

[ninjahood]

If you're trying to make a slippery slope argument about statues then you're really missing the point.

Trump effectively shut da reporter up with da George Washington comparison so that slippery slope argument hold alot of weight and is introspective on just how you deal with America's past without resorting to recontextualizing or just flat out erasing it.

 

[RIP sleazyy]

I'm like 99.8% sure your average confederate flag waver does not know that

 

[ninjahood]

Because there is a question. Is it murder? Is it terrorism? And then you get into legal semantics.

u forgot that part.

 

[MVP]

I'm like 99.8% sure your average confederate flag waver does not know that

They know, they just don't care. That's the whole purpose of their clown activity they want to go back to the old days where they had minorities under heel and were able to get away with this type of overt racism and even push it further.

 

[whywesteppin]

WOW AND SMH indeed, comrade. Such libellous innuendo. Libbies truly have NO shame when it comes to conjecture.

indeed. all this conjecture and innuendo from Obummer and his disciples is ruining our great country!

first they tear down the statue of Lee. what's to stop them from tearing down the statue of Lincoln, the man who single-handedly took this country to war and destroyed the god-fearing South? we still don't have our jobs back. Lincoln did worse than have slaves. he took away their great jobs on the plantations and left them JOBLESS. it's not until donald came along that they may finally get their jobs back and then racism will completely go away AUTOMATICALLY!

 

[rillo561]

Lee is/was a traitor by today standards, he was on the losing end of a war.....about civil rights. How the hell can you compare the two? Is that what Fox news is focusing on here?

 

[monstar]

Trump effectively shut da reporter up with da George Washington comparison so that slippery slope argument hold alot of weight and is introspective on just how you deal with America's past without resorting to recontextualizing or just flat out erasing it.

I think the point your missing along with Trump is what these figures represent in the times of today. No one is going to say the Confederacy was the right ideology to follow, and is it a problem to realize that a mistake has been made by keeping statues up that represent hate and the ideas of a minority that exist today?

I cant compare Robert E Lee to George Washington, because at the same time didnt he also allow for African Americans to fight alongside him during the Colonial War? Did Lee do that? Thats just one example

If we tell the whole story I am pretty sure you can come to the conclusion that America during the Revolutionary War is different from the era of the civil war

and Lee is not the same person that Washington was

 

[whywesteppin]

u forgot that part.

but you realize how intellectually dishonest and dodgy of an answer it was? they weren't asking him how he would prosecute this in court.

nevermind, of course you don't, or won't.

 

[harlemtothebronx]

u forgot that part.

 

[ninjahood]

I'm like 99.8% sure your average confederate flag waver does not know that

that's about a topical superficial a argument as "99.98% of Jordan buyers don't even know how many rings Jordan won".

people from da south like that flag because it gives a certain segment of a region a avatar to cheer around.

when i was a kid da Dukes of Hazzard wasn't watched by only "inbred hick racist Nazi sympathizers"

so we all know they're a portion of people who liked that flag for innocuous regional pride.

I think in 2017 though alot of that naive affinity for da Confederate flag is pretty much a dying number. its been repolarized to like 100000% percent

 

[whywesteppin]

let's be honest here.

people aren't upset that these statues are being taken down because they deeply care for history and Lee.

the only reason they care is because this is their way of taking a stand for the racism and bigotry of their culture without actually having to lynch someone.

end of story. let's cut the ********.

 

[RIP sleazyy]

you're so on point, Donald Trump basically plagiarized you this afternoon.

Wild part is if you're familiar with antifa you already know this stuff. Problem is a lot of people are just hearing about them for the first time over the last few days and some of the media is romanticizing what they're about.

When BLM protesters were on TV during the Ferguson riots talking about "masked white guys who came there to cause destruction and confusion" that's exactly who they were talking about.

They came in, caused destruction, and literally rolled out when the chaos they started got the already itchy fingered and brutal police that were there more riled up than they were.

 

[ninjahood]

but you realize how intellectually dishonest and dodgy of an answer it was? they weren't asking him how he would

Trump is either a dumb *** or a genius...you can't play both sides

 

[RustyShackleford]

The Confederate flag is not only offensive because the South fought to keep slavery, hence making it a racist symbol, it is offensive because they committed treason.

They tried to break up the Union. Those generals should have been put on trial, sentence, Reconstruction should have been never abandoned, and the Confederacy should have be to America what the Nazis are to Germany. An black mark on the countries history.

Instead they are thought of as victims to many, and their legacy is celebrated

It is a ******* embarrassment to this country, on many levels, that this goes on.

 

[RIP sleazyy]

that's about a topical superficial a argument as "99.98% of Jordan buyers don't even know how many rings Jordan won".

Nah man. I'm convinced they do not know lol

 

[ninjahood]

Wild part is if you're familiar with antifa you already know this stuff. Problem is a lot of people are just hearing about them for the first time over the last few days and some of the media is romanticizing what they're about.

When BLM protesters were on TV during the Ferguson riots talking about "masked white guys who came there to cause destruction and confusion" that's exactly who they were talking about.

They came in, caused destruction, and literally rolled out when the chaos they started got the already itchy fingered and brutal police that were there more riled up than they were.

bingo.

folks better get to know all shady players in this community organization game from all da sides of da spectrum.

 

[elpablo21]

 

[ninjahood]

Instead they are thought of as victims to many, and their legacy is celebrated

because them wanting to leave da union and rebel is in a bizzaro way da way da United States was born, so people romanticize da under dog story...why you think Met fans exist?

 

[whywesteppin]

Trump is either a dumb *** or a genius...you can't play both sides

he's a dumb ***.

anyone who follows politics knows what the question was asking. they wanted to know if he will call it terrorism the same way any politically-motivated murder/attack by a Muslim or minority is automatically labeled terrorism.

trump dodged the question because he didn't want to call a white guy a terrorist. he was speaking to the racists in his clan. maybe you think that's genius.

most of us call it cowardice.

 

[everysingletime]

Trump is so transparent about his avoidance of the word terrorism when white ppl are involved and most of the right do not see it or they choose not to see it

You already know if it was someone brown driving that car he'd be tweeting about shutting down borders to drive down terrorism

 

[ninjahood]

anyone who follows politics knows what the question was asking.

anyone who follows politics from both sides understood how da reporter asked da question to frame da conversation a certain way and Trump wasn't playing ball.

u literally have exact footage from da event framing it to spin either da left or right wing narratives.

 

[iamdef]

The Confederate flag is not only offensive because the South fought to keep slavery, hence making it a racist symbol, it is offensive because they committed treason.

Idk why the defense of the "Rebel Flag" has to go past this point