***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[dwalk31]

Not gonna link his tweet but ALL IS WELL?! Yeah just on the brink of war, base got blown up. All good though. Clown.

Seems obviously in reference to US casualties

 

[whywesteppin]

Good points.

Today's relatively soft attack and then threats of destroying entire cities (if only rumors) are a) to placate their base and save face in the short-term (until they make their real move) and b) to try to bait Trump into a terrible move. Otherwise, they'll just wait and then strike when there's a good opportunity.

Meanwhile, Putin is enjoying all of this.

 

[gry60]

 

[frink85]

Good points.

Today's relatively soft attack and then threats of destroying entire cities (if only rumors) are a) to placate their base and save face in the short-term (until they make their real move) and b) to try to bait Trump into a terrible move. Otherwise, they'll just wait and then strike when there's a good opportunity.

Meanwhile, Putin is enjoying all of this.

Iran playing chess while trump playing go fish

 

[IATT]

 

[IATT]

All

is

well.....

 

[WASPS ANDD ASPS]

Wow!

 

[frink85]

What a jackass. Also scared to say anything ASAP, gotta have the writers come in and pull overtime.

 

[lovehateself]

I usually go to bed ASAP when I know I ****ed up too

 

[aepps20]

Very proud of our PRESIDENT ELECT tonight. USA, USA, USSSSA

 

[debso]

I dont think he got scared. I honestly think they're preparing for war and talking strategy, who infiltrated, prepping cities, talking the economy and election, etc.

I dont think trump is stupid. Everything he does is calculated but not to social norms.

They wanted this.

 

[frink85]

I dont think he got scared. I honestly think they're preparing for war and talking strategy, who infiltrated, prepping cities, talking the economy and election, etc.

I dont think trump is stupid. Everything he does is calculated but not to social norms.

They wanted this.

on a night like this when a major attack goes down it would make sense to address the American people and reassure them/calm them down. Maddow made a point that both bush and Obama has dealt with this before

 

[RustyShackleford]

I dunno about rent free. But they definitely got a rent control unit.

A number of whites, in the 60's and 70's and 80's, literally and figuratively abandoned and then burned down the semblance of a decent, civil society that they had built after WWII, rather than share it with black people. There's no doubt about that.

At the same time, we are not forever caught in an inescapable curse that was cast in 1964. There have been at least three moments since that year that the prospect of a multiracial workers coalition looked possible and it was the Professional-Managerial class wing of the part that defeated it. In 1988, in 2009 and now, we have the urban professional faction of the attacking Jesse Jackson, the post 2008 mandate for socialism and now Bernie 2020 (who is leading with non white voters, it is just a plurality but he's leading. This is not 2016 where his base was almost all white).

Of Course, the Party elders now and back then would say that they share the same goals as Jackson or sanders or Obama's campaign promises in 2008. The problem is that we live in a super majority white, center-right country and we just can't fly too close to the sun. They'd argue that it'd be better to get half of what we want rather than nothing. Ok sure, let's say that's true at the national level. What about in virtually every major city and in some States who whites aren't a majority and the GOP is not a serious threat?

One would expect the Democratic Party and its elected officials to be further left in those places but they end up being hostile to workers, especially the poorest workers and especially to unhoused people. To get them to even moderate their ruthless towards the unhoused, for instance, you have to do a ton of direct action and sometimes you have to beat them in city council races and district attorney races. I don't expect any incumbent politician to just give up but after seeing enough elections where real estate interests spend lots of money to stop left wing, pro homeless candidates, it is hard to think of the Democratic Party as one big happy family of progressives with the same policy goals. When you got advocates for the housing secure and the housing insecure on the one side and you've got landlords and real estate developers, there is intractable conflict there.

So when I see a national politician in the Democratic Party not serve the homeless and instead serve real estate interests, I have to ask myself if they are doing this to appeal to suburban moderates or is this politicians doing what they wanted to do all along, which is serving their class interests and/or the class interests of their donors.




In this scenario, we'd have proportional, national voting for an American Parliament. Since the GOP has lost most popular votes this century, they would not be able to get 50% outright. Therefore, the left and center parties would be in the driver's seat to form a government. The GOP's path would involve getting close to 50% and grafting on one or more of the most centrist parties. Now in a situation where we have multiple, indentitarian, rent seeking PMC parties, the GOP would obviously reach out to the white PMC Party or they'd reach out to the women's PMC Party (which we know in this counter factual, would be mostly a white women's Party). I doubt that the hypothetical black PMC Party would be offered nor would it accept a offer to form a government that would be centered on the GOP and fascism.

The reason why I'm so down on the PMC is related to my experiences in a blue part of the country and, as I mentioned above, the discourse and rhetoric about homeless people in particular. The sight of or even the mere mention of unhoused people turn plenty of well educated, woke urban professionals into tea party style monsters. I think of how they act now and imagine the barbarism when we hit a major recession and of course, the coming effects and displacement of climate change.

-Jesse Jackson did face pushback from centrist in the party because of his economics, he did have a multiracial coalition too, but when the voting started, this is where it ended up...

Spoiler: 1988 Primary Map

It is hard for me to believe that Jesse Jackson being a black man running on reparations, didn't have a hand to play in his eventual lost when his wins mainly came from areas African Americans put him over the top. A ton of white people chose not to vote for Jackson because of his race, not his politics.

And may we remember that 1988 ended up being the Willie Horton election. And Willie Horton was first mentioned by Gore during the primary. So was at play heavy in 1988.

-Obama did not promise socialism in 2008; he didn't get a mandate to deliver it. Hell, Dems built the House Majority on the back of damn blue dogs. Nearly every Democratic campaign after Obama 2008: 2012 Obama, 2016 Clinton, hell argualbly Biden 2020 is left of 2008 Obama on aggregate. It is just that people saw (rightfully) that Obama as relatively more progressive than the party and the field. Biden is definitely not viewed that way because he is not. Obama promised robust liberal policies. You are right that centrist, especially in the Senate absolutely ****ed over Obama. Much more than people realize.

The first time the Tea Party showed up to Washington wasn't for the stimulus or ACA. It was because Obama was considering either bailing out homeowners or bailing out lenders, and the Tea Party thought it was blasphemy for Obama to bail out all those minorities that had been tricked into those bad mortgages. Through Fox News and Koch Brothers' money that snowballed into a national white nationalism campaign that decimated the Dems in 2010. Leading up to that lost, you had politicians on the left, from Blue Dogs to Sanders himself using this racist movement to attack Obama as either being a) No moderate enough to prevent this backlash or b) Not progressive enough. It was top to bottom sucka **** in the face of white backlash to the first black president by the Dems.

So I really don't think 1998 and 2008 can be analyzed just on economic terms. White identity politics played a role in those events.

-I have no idea why you included the fact he is #1 with non-white voters, is this to say somehow he has formed a multiracial coalition this time, unlike last time? First off, from last time I looked at the numbers, he is slightly ahead of Biden; I believe within the polling error too. Second, there are significant splits in the non-white vote right now. Third, if you are using this logic, then Biden is the candidate of the lower classes because last time I check the NPR Marist Poll, he polls ahead of Bernie with households making less than $50,000 and non-college grads.

Bernie has not improved his standing with non-white voters, so his coalition seems more diverse because he lost white voters to Biden and others. It is wild to me that anyone would try to paint this as a positive. He has not expanded his base with non-white voters, so he gets zero credit from me on this. There are legit reasons to vote for Sanders over others; there are legitimate reasons not to vote for the dude. Not every objection to a Sanders candidacy is the professional class rent-seeking. I find with my taxes getting jacked up to fund a robust progressive policy, and just don't think someone like Bernie is the best person for the job. Many others feel the same; you just tend to ignore this sentiment. Also, I don't see the pushback to Sanders being all the unique from what most Dems get when they go progressive. But I do concede the chicken little act with private interest groups goes a but further with Bernie and Warren at times.

I am just not buying that he is getting screwed over as you insist. Secondly, I am not sympathetic to him and his supporters because you guys engage in all sort of insincere ****ery toward other candidates that it is hard for me to take your objections seriously.

-I will respond to the second part later.

 

[debso]

on a night like this when a major attack goes down it would make sense to address the American people and reassure them/calm them down. Maddow made a point that both bush and Obama has dealt with this before

Hes not them tho. He moves different.
Hes not the type to not say and do something crazy. An angry trump is a scary thought.

 

[obeahmyal7]

RustyShackleford

I hear you on almost all of this. But a question:

On what grounds (evidence, really) can you claim that Sanders "has not expanded his base of non-white voters"? Like, how does one substantiate this declarative and absolutist claim that flattens the particularities of place, region, etc?

 

[boris]

What a jackass. Also scared to say anything ASAP, gotta have the writers come in and pull overtime.

It's much better when this fool doesn't open his mouth, so I'll take it.

 

[rolaholic]

This day has been all sorts of insane man

Really hope it's not a flight 655/MH370 type situation

 

[frink85]

It's much better when this fool doesn't open his mouth, so I'll take it.

Hes not them tho. He moves different.
Hes not the type to not say and do something crazy. An angry trump is a scary thought.

[Zo gif] Touché.

 

[Belgium]

This day has been all sorts of insane man

Really hope it's not a flight 655/MH370 type situation

Given Boeing’s recent 737 troubles, no way I’d get on that plane.

 

[hipstermike]

Serious everyone should fly Airbus if they can

 

[gry60]

 

[rolaholic]

An earthquake just hit them too now apparently,wtf is going on man!?

 

[gry60]

Given Boeing’s recent 737 troubles, no way I’d get on that plane.

The 737 + small airline makes me think the same thing.

It has no redundancy: it takes input from just one AoA sensor at a time. That makes MCAS completely unable to cope with a sensor malfunction. It can't “sanity check” its data against a second sensor or switch to a backup if the original source fails.

The many human errors that brought down the Boeing 737 Max

A damning investigation revealing the many small failures that led to 346 lives being lost.

www.theverge.com

The second AoA sensor (that ensured redundancy) was sold as an option, and only the larger, wealthier airline companies could afford it. It was never caught because Boeing basically inspected their own systems (arrangement with the FAA).

Don't you just love unregulated capitalism?

 

[nawghtyhare]

ukrainian plane crashed iran

 

[RustyShackleford]

RustyShackleford

I hear you on almost all of this. But a question:

On what grounds (evidence, really) can you claim that Sanders "has not expanded his base of non-white voters"? Like, how does one substantiate this declarative and absolutist claim that flattens the particularities of place, region, etc?

http://maristpoll.marist.edu/wp-con...Poll_USA-NOS-and-Tables_1912131159.pdf#page=3

Because he polls around the same or lower with groups as he did in 2016. Rex wanted to point to poll numbers to argue a point about Sanders non-white support, I am pointing out that polls also so him not improved his standing on aggregate.

I am sure he was won over some new non-white voters. But that is not the point I am pushing back against.