***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[freeze]

 

[Deleted member 42060]

GOP plagued with ‘cancer’ of dishonesty, says party maverick Adam Kinzinger

The Republican Party suffers from a “cancer” of lies, Illinois Republican Rep. Adam Kinzinger said Sunday, offering an explanation of his decision not to run for re-election to Congress…

www.nydailynews.com

 

[RustyShackleford]

I don’t think I’ve been in here for like a year

You stay arguing with dudes in here day in and day out, week in and week out, year in and year out. But when it comes to me it’s just too much to deal with? I guess everyone else just stops with you after a couple responses?

It’s all good regardless, but all that talk about bad faith, strawmen, entitlement, etc. is nonsense.

And when you were here before you did the same ****. And the times both that, the same ****

I think I have been pretty fair with you, in the past and today.

I said "dudes like Red" so I clearly was not just talking about you.

I don't a **** about your views on how I spend my time on NT. Like none

Famb, when it comes to dealing with dudes that constantly strawman me, I have engaged with you more than most.

Having to constant answer for **** I didn't say is nonsense to me

I quote examples of you doing it. People can judge for themselves

You can chop it up with deuce king if you need a liberal to argue with

 

[-Red-]

To, -Red- Methodical Management RustyShackleford mplsdunk @aepps20

The lack of trust within America’s broader left coalition is lamentable (and lest I be accused of hypocrisy, I’ll own up to being one of the worst offenders).

Just because someone emphasizes common interest, especially common interests as workers, that span racial lines, does not automatically make them a secret NazBol or an anti CRT school board meeting attendee.

And just because someone emphasizes the role of white supremacy in making America a significantly more hostile place for workers, doesn’t always mean that they are rainbow capitalist stooges. (To be clear, that’s not a criticism of -Red-, that’s a criticism of myself).

I understand why the mistrust exists since all sorts of bad faith actors dominate our political media. But, IMO, everyone in this discussion cares about racial and economic justice.

Can we all agree upon that?

We gonna have disagreements and debates. It’s a politics thread. Folks have strong sentiments and investments in these issues, me no less than anyone else. Cool, let’s hash it out. We may not come to consensus, but the dialogue is engaging and enlightening. I’m all for it.

 

[Methodical Management]

A dismissive comment about school board meetings is responded to in kind…

A dismissive comment about systemic racism and “reverse racism” rhetoric was responded to in kind.

Just because someone emphasizes common interest, especially common interests as workers, that span racial lines, does not automatically make them a secret NazBol or an anti CRT school board meeting attendee.

Ignoring and/or inverting power hierarchies to create false equivalences between anti-racists and noose-toting GOP members while lobbing out the label "race reductionist" does a lot of heavy lifting there.


Ironically, had he decided to apply his substitution test to his own argument, he might have realized how flawed it is.

For example: a true "race reductionist" would be urging members of the working class to conciliate with the 1% to join hands in effort to fight the ultimate root source of all inequality, racism.
Sound familiar?

"You and others can talk about and treat people from "different classes" as though they live in completely separate worlds and have mutually exclusive experiences and interests if you want. But if you care about progressive politics, even if only to the extent that it would benefit poor and working-class Black folks, that is a counterproductive strategy.

I don't think painting rich folks as irredeemably greedy is less insulting than saying that there's another way that they might look at things that lead them to some different conclusions. But maybe I'm alone in that thinking."


If there was a similar attempt to subordinate class considerations beneath racial inequality, then you could "both sides" this issue.


"Last place aversion" is an intersectional issue, not limited to race or class, and it's arrant nonsense to act like it has nothing to do with embracing structural inequality or its constituent notions of superiority. If someone sides against, say, marriage equality, it's hard to take the argument that this alignment has nothing to do with heterosexism and is really about "liberals throwing trade workers under the bus," particularly when the GOP stance towards organized labor is "and our bus has spiked tires."

I don't know why we ought to accept such threadbare rationalizations and coddle those who cast their lot with the tiki torch crowd, ostensibly for the "greater good."
Whose greater good?

I don't think painting folks as irredeemable racists is less insulting than saying that there's another way that they might look at things that lead them to some different conclusions. But maybe I'm alone in that thinking.

"Please identify any other books or content in your District ... that might make students feel discomfort, guilt, anguish, or any other form of psychological distress because of their race or sex or convey that a student, by virtue of their race or sex, is inherently racist, sexist, or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously."



Same energy.

Hell I will avoid this thread and posts in it more so class first takes can flourish

Not in my backyard.

 

[-Red-]

And when you were here before you did the same ****. And the times both that, the same ****

I think I have been pretty fair with you, in the past and today.

I said "dudes like Red" so I clearly was not just talking about you.

I don't a **** about your views on how I spend my time on NT. Like none

Famb, when it comes to dealing with dudes that constantly strawman me, I have engaged with you more than most.

Having to constant answer for **** I never said is nonsense to me

I quote examples of you doing it. People can judge for themselves

You can chop it up with deuce king if you need a liberal to argue with

You’re gonna do what you’re gonna do. Your complaints were way overblown then and they are now IMO, but you’re entitled to your sentiments.

 

[mplsdunk]

I don’t have problems with anyone in here. rexanglorum

thread is more mature than any type of convo you’d have in person. Even with all the #coal and pedo jokes.

 

[IATT]

 

[RustyShackleford]

You’re gonna do what you’re gonna do. Your complaints were way overblown then and they are now IMO, but you’re entitled to your sentiments.

Well good for you that you won't have to hear them again

 

[RustyShackleford]

I'm excited to see how much morally bankrupt buffoonery dude is gonna engage in to get the nomination or VP pick

It is gonna be a master class in biscuitry

 

[Nike Jordan]

 

[RustyShackleford]

Why Never Trumpers Should Bet on DeSantis Now

The Florida governor is flawed, but within normal parameters. The former president poses a unique threat.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[rexanglorum]

Methodical Management Race and class dynamics are different. You're usually the first person to caution against using race and class analysis interchangeably.

White people and black people can, theoretically at least, live together with true peace, with true justice. Obviously, American and World History has shown white people failing miserably in actually making that a reality but it's possible to have a world of racial identities and peaceful coexistance (and eventually the sociological eradication of race as a concept would eventually follow, ideally).

By contrast, the proletariat and bourgeoisie literally cannot both exist and there also be a peaceful and just world. Either the two classes will fight or, the bourgeoisie will unleash part of the working class onto the other along lines of race, gender, nationality, religion etc.

So, IMO, you can't substitute race for class analysis even in service of making a point. IMO, race can be wound down as a sociological distinction, class cannot.


Now, I agree with you (and everyone else in this discussion) that every worker whose lot in life as been diminished by the machinations of capital, should choose the leftmost political option available to them. That fact that white workers have, far more often than any other racial category of workers, gravitated to culture war and therefore white supremacy and patriarchy in response to diminished material comfort and security, is tragic and it literally imperils every other worker and eventually life on this planet. I don't think anyone is happy to see downwardly mobile whites embracing reactionary politics.

The crux of this disagreement seems to be how much of this is material and how much of it is moral. IMO, it's like -Red- said, like violent crime. We don't want it but we can better defeat it by understanding its material role rather than throwing up our hands and saying that its due to bad morals. This doesn't mean that material explanations of bad behavior (and in this specific case of whites supporting the GOP, downright violent and genocidal behavior) are excuses for that behavior.

 

[RustyShackleford]

 

[RustyShackleford]

With all the talk of unions and the voting trends of white folk, I wonder where police unions fit in

But I'm sure the existence of a powerful union that protects the economic interest of police officers would also lead to class unity with minority groups and increase the Dems vote share among its members

Surely

 

[IATT]

 

[IATT]

 

[Methodical Management]

Before I launch off on a rant that few will read and fewer will read in good faith, I want to post this right up front because it is hilarious:

Mastodon issues 30-day ultimatum to Trump's social network over misuse of its code | TechCrunch

Former President Trump's new social network might be in hot water before it even launches. Mastodon, a free social media framework, alleges that Truth

techcrunch.com

Methodical Management Race and class dynamics are different. You're usually the first person to caution against using race and class analysis interchangeably.

White people and black people can, theoretically at least, live together with true peace, with true justice. Obviously, American and World History has shown white people failing miserably in actually making that a reality but it's possible to have a world of racial identities and peaceful coexistance (and eventually the sociological eradication of race as a concept would eventually follow, ideally).

By contrast, the proletariat and bourgeoisie literally cannot both exist and there also be a peaceful and just world. Either the two classes will fight or, the bourgeoisie will unleash part of the working class onto the other along lines of race, gender, nationality, religion etc.

So, IMO, you can't substitute race for class analysis even in service of making a point. IMO, race can be wound down as a sociological distinction, class cannot.


Now, I agree with you (and everyone else in this discussion) that every worker whose lot in life as been diminished by the machinations of capital, should choose the leftmost political option available to them. That fact that white workers have, far more often than any other racial category of workers, gravitated to culture war and therefore white supremacy and patriarchy in response to diminished material comfort and security, is tragic and it literally imperils every other worker and eventually life on this planet. I don't think anyone is happy to see downwardly mobile whites embracing reactionary politics.

The crux of this disagreement seems to be how much of this is material and how much of it is moral. IMO, it's like -Red- said, like violent crime. We don't want it but we can better defeat it by understanding its material role rather than throwing up our hands and saying that its due to bad morals. This doesn't mean that material explanations of bad behavior (and in this specific case of whites supporting the GOP, downright violent and genocidal behavior) are excuses for that behavior.

Your impulse to play peacemaker is well-intended, but you're both-siding this.

Red tried to shoe polish Rusty's position into "Many black people have adapted to evolving social and economic realities and have achieved great success, so I'm not gonna make excuses for the ones that went the opposite way," then attempted to distort my response into, "painting folks as irredeemable racists." Attempting to establish an equivalence between this and what Rusty and I have actually said is to accept a biased, distorted framing.

Methodical Management Methodical Management Race and class dynamics are different. You're usually the first person to caution against using race and class analysis interchangeably.

You appear to have entirely missed my point in critiquing his substitution strategy by applying it to his own argument.


Similarly, who is “throwing up their hands” or faulting “morals” alone? To the extent that we cannot defeat that which we do not understand, it’s time to stop repeating the mistakes of those who have historically chosen to regard social inequality as primarily, if not exclusively, an economic problem and proponents of an unjust status quo as self-defeating, ignorant dupes who need only be reminded of the boot on their own neck to liberate those who could then assist them in vanquishing their mutual oppressor. Were that the right approach, it probably would’ve worked by now.

Most Americans simultaneously suffer and benefit from different sources of social inequality, which illustrates the interconnectedness of these issues, and a key component of their obduracy.

Either the two classes will fight or, the bourgeoisie will unleash part of the working class onto the other along lines of race, gender, nationality, religion etc.

Careful, this certainly reads as though you think every other form of inequality is but a tendril of the Capitalist leviathan.

While we can agree that exploitation and the hoarding of resources are inherently immoral, I think you’re leaving something out in this analysis.

I need not reiterate my skepticism about cishet White men casting their primary experience with injustice as the “ur-inequality” from which all other injustices are descended.

Proponents of class primacy are hardly alone in their ability to formulate an argument as to the uniqueness of their focal point.

It is possible - though increasingly unlikely - to ascend from one social class to another. Unlike in other societies, though, America’s “one drop rule” seeks to preclude the possibility of transcending or improving one’s racial status, hence the comparison to caste. (And race is not the only difference that has been conceptualized as a natural hierarchy.) Purely from an historical standpoint, men were oppressing women long before they were practicing usury.

It’s one thing to analyze the unique qualities of each form of oppression. It’s quite another to rank them.

No one is denying the significance of class. Centering it serves less to unite than to exclude, by creating a hierarchy of hierarchies.

Your broader point, that no one designated as prey may safely coexist among predators, is not a predicament exclusive to economic class.

White people and black people can, theoretically at least, live together with true peace, with true justice.

It is not that varying racial groups cannot amicably coexist, (though the categories as we know them were created as a boundary for moral/ethical consideration, to delineate between free and unfree, person and non-person, or person and property), it is that it is demonstrably unsafe to live among those who consider you and your kind subhuman. That is, if nothing else, a foundational theme of this continent’s history. There is no “true peace” or “true justice” in such a society - whatever its relative material parity.

So it is not entirely accurate to suggest that class, and only class, is the one difference that can only be cured through its eradication. There are ideological differences that are inherently incompatible with our mutual coexistence as well, and these, too, must be laid low.

While you would rightly reject the farcical notion that inequality persists because we are too vindictive towards the 1%, preventing them for marshaling their considerable resources to ensure our planetary survival (to whatever extent they still remain terrestrially attached) we must likewise dismiss - without compromise - the insulting premise that inequality persists because progressives are not nice enough to White people.

I don’t need tone policing on this issue.

Anger and skepticism in this situation are fully justified, and not a matter of “reverse prejudice.” To hold someone accountable is not to consider them intrinsically “irredeemable.” For whom if not White people does racism serve? Our systems of inequality exist for the sake their beneficiaries. They exist to define and justify subordinate classes. There is, thus, a collective responsibility - and culpability - among those who reap these bloody harvests, even among those who oppose their own unwelcome receipt.

The idea that we can just “buy them off” fundamentally misunderstands the value of these systems to their beneficiaries, and the appeal of the “counter-offer.” As has often been observed: to those accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

As we’ve seen time and time again, you cannot end racism by plying White people with the promise of jobs and infrastructure when White privilege is the nation’s longest running jobs and infrastructure program.


There are those who resent and reject the very premise and project of equality. Two generations ago, they decided that they’d rather close their public schools and fill their public pools than open them up to everyone.

THAT is what we’re up against.

As such, we cannot afford to 1) overstate the quality of life improvement conferred by the material benefits on offer or 2) underestimate the non-monetary value of status - which, not coincidentally, serves as one of the most common uses of wealth, as expressed even while meeting basic subsistence needs.


This is not just a material issue. It is social. It is psychological.

It must be treated as such.

 

[IATT]

 

[IATT]

 

[gry60]

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Why Never Trumpers Should Bet on DeSantis Now

The Florida governor is flawed, but within normal parameters. The former president poses a unique threat.

www.theatlantic.com

one step closer to the Ron and Timmy Scott ticket...

 

[RustyShackleford]

one step closer to the Ron and Timmy Scott ticket...

So now Timmy is the VP choice

I see the bar has already been lowered

But in all honesty, that would probably be the best combo the GOP can run.

DeSantis constantly GOP dog whistling, and Scott offering up bad faith defenses of it.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

So now Timmy is the VP choice

I see the bar has already been lowered

I think i said this back then but being desantis VP would help
he needs to get some of the maga stink on him, but with enough melanin and republican establishment street cred to give him plausible deniability.

 

[T Lo Sweater]

I dont think him or any of these other loonies will face jail time. Color me shocked if they do

#Taleof2Americas