The Official NBA Collective Bargaining Thread vol Phased in Hard Cap

Bill Simmons responds to the idiots:

Last thing: In Wednesday's column, I finished a prolonged section about the NBA's big-picture economic problems (not the straight economic issues they're arguing about right now, but the deeper issues, namely, how they're going to reshape this league economically now that consumer behavior is working against them) by bringing up every big-picture issue that transcends this lockout and wondering, "Where's the big-picture leadership here? What's the right number of franchises? Where should those franchises play? What's worse, losing three franchises or losing an entire season of basketball? What's really important here? I don't trust the players' side to make the right choices, because they are saddled with limited intellectual capital. (Sorry, it's true.) The owners' side can't say the same; they should be ashamed. Same for the agents. And collectively, they should all be mortified that a 16-hour negotiating session, this late in the game, was cause for any celebration or optimism."

Look, I know how it works in the Twitter era: It's easy to tweet "Simmons thinks the NBA players have 'limited intellectual capital,'" have others retweet this, and eventually, you end up with (a) an actual NBA player (in this case, Anthony Tolliver) wondering, "Bill Simmons said that the @NBPA & NBA players have 'limited intellectual capital' …wow! Does he think that we cant read between the lines?", (b) some "scholar" playing the race card (just painful to read — I can't even link to it, I won't do that to you), and (c) a business blogger named Mary Adams lecturing me (did she even check to see what the context was?) about my ignorance with the phrase "intellectual capital."

So I'm ignorant because I don't think NBA players will be the ones creating a new economic model for the NBA? What are their qualifications to do such a thing? If they're so financially savvy, why do they need agents to negotiate their deals? Why have we made such a big fuss these past 10 years over how many athletes (not just NBA players) are going broke? Why should we expect them to have an advantage negotiating against a bunch of billionaires who have law degrees and MBAs and make big-picture deals all the time? As my friend Whitlock wrote earlier this week, "Stern has been balling in the basketball boardroom for three decades. The players look as out of place barging into meetings and negotiating with Stern and his lawyers as Stern and his lawyers would challenging Fisher, Wade, Garnett and Pierce on the court."

From day one, the players have approached this lockout like it's a competition — they don't want to be beaten, they're not rolling over, they're staying strong and all that macho *!+%@*%%. It's all small-picture stuff. When's the last time you heard someone from the players' side say, "Maybe the owners are right, maybe we should work with them to create a better system?" Where are the Bill Russells, the Bill Bradleys, the Oscar Robertsons, the Phil Jacksons, the Bob Cousys and Tommy Heinsohns — thoughtful stars pushing for real change instead of just pretending to be tough at a meeting? Where are the guys who stood up before the 1964 All-Star Game in Boston and basically said, "The current system is broken and needs to change NOW, or we're not playing?" Where is this generation's Larry Fleisher, a brilliant legal mind who can successfully look out for the players while also helping to shape the league's bigger picture? Seriously, where is he?

If we're relying on someone to create a new economic model to save the league, don't expect it to be the players; it's outside their means. That's what I wrote. I would have written the same thing about NHL players, NFL players or MLB players, and by the way, I wrote the same thing four years ago about the Writers Guild when they were dumb enough to give away four-plus months of paychecks because they were so obsessed with guaranteeing themselves a piece of Internet revenue going forward … only Internet revenue hadn't even come close to fully forming into anything yet. (That's why I compared the NBA players to the Hollywood writers over and over again these past few months.) If you remember, the larger point of Wednesday's column was this: The two sides should split the difference on every issue, come to a two-year détente, start playing basketball again, then spend those next two years building a better economic model that puts everyone in a better place … and if they don't, many fans will move on, and some of them might not come back.

If the players want to create that model, God bless 'em. I haven't seen any inkling from them these past few months that they're thinking that way — they're all about protecting their BRI, midlevel exception and contract lengths. Again, small-picture stuff. (It's unclear if they even realize that, by missing two months of paychecks, it's impossible for them to get that money back no matter what the deal is. And they're definitely being manipulated by agents with two sets of agendas — the ones who want salaries for stars to keep rising, and the ones who want to protect the salaries of the middle-class guys. There is no common ground. You can't have both. If we're cutting player revenue, one of those two groups will suffer.) Even during the most spirited round of talks between owners and players this week, by all accounts, it was the owners (Mark Cuban, James Dolan, Jerry Buss and Micky Arison, all of whom Billy Hunter mentioned positively in his press conference yesterday) coming up with ambitious ideas to blow things up and take the league in a different direction (including one owner who basically wanted to abolish the salary cap entirely) as well as Paul Allen and some of the small market owners who reportedly undermined that momentum before it had a chance to flourish.

We have heard little (if any) of that brainstorming coming from the players or Hunter. They're all about "holding the line" and "not bending" and "staying at 53" … meanwhile, they keep forgetting that they have no leverage whatsoever, nor can they take a hint that they're dealing with a bunch of ruthless rich dudes who will absolutely murder the 2011-12 season to get what they want. (The owners lied this whole time. They WANT to miss games. They always did. That was always the plan. The one time they nearly broke and caved the most — two weeks ago — the players blew that window with their ill-fated "we're gonna have KG, Paul and Kobe handle this" plan.) It's no different than the writers holding tough against Hollywood in 2008. And, eventually, losing. Those writers lacked the same intellectual capital to shape their business in a big-picture way that the NBA players lack right now, or that the NHL players will lack next year when they get locked out. Of course, here's how Mary Adams described the intellectual capital of players:

"Players bring all four kinds of knowledge to the table: their own knowledge and experience; their fans and relationships with teams; their contributions to playbooks and team operations plus their contributions on media like Twitter; their packaging as players and media figures."

Um, what does that have to do with creating a new economic model for the NBA again? Mary keeps going: "You could do the same analysis of owners and agents. In fact, when you look at things this way, you'll see that each group brings different pieces of the whole to the table. The reason that the players, agents and owners are all at the table together is that they need each other. And they do bring different knowledge to the table."

Totally agree. But how do those skills lead to players being the ones who actually create a better economic model? Allow me to twist Mary's words around and read between the lines like she did: "If these sides stop fighting over small-picture stuff and concentrate instead on blowing up the system and creating a better one, the players have to chip in by giving their input on fans, teams, playbooks, social media and brand packaging." You know, because the immortal "Let us play!" social media campaign was such a roaring success.

I stand by what I wrote on Wednesday: If there's legitimate big-picture progress to be made — sweeping, change-the-way-NBA-business-is-done stuff — it's going to come from the owners and agents, as well as David Stern and Billy Hunter. Yes, the four parties who put us in this mess in the first place.

(In other words, we're screwed.)
 
Bill Simmons responds to the idiots:

Last thing: In Wednesday's column, I finished a prolonged section about the NBA's big-picture economic problems (not the straight economic issues they're arguing about right now, but the deeper issues, namely, how they're going to reshape this league economically now that consumer behavior is working against them) by bringing up every big-picture issue that transcends this lockout and wondering, "Where's the big-picture leadership here? What's the right number of franchises? Where should those franchises play? What's worse, losing three franchises or losing an entire season of basketball? What's really important here? I don't trust the players' side to make the right choices, because they are saddled with limited intellectual capital. (Sorry, it's true.) The owners' side can't say the same; they should be ashamed. Same for the agents. And collectively, they should all be mortified that a 16-hour negotiating session, this late in the game, was cause for any celebration or optimism."

Look, I know how it works in the Twitter era: It's easy to tweet "Simmons thinks the NBA players have 'limited intellectual capital,'" have others retweet this, and eventually, you end up with (a) an actual NBA player (in this case, Anthony Tolliver) wondering, "Bill Simmons said that the @NBPA & NBA players have 'limited intellectual capital' …wow! Does he think that we cant read between the lines?", (b) some "scholar" playing the race card (just painful to read — I can't even link to it, I won't do that to you), and (c) a business blogger named Mary Adams lecturing me (did she even check to see what the context was?) about my ignorance with the phrase "intellectual capital."

So I'm ignorant because I don't think NBA players will be the ones creating a new economic model for the NBA? What are their qualifications to do such a thing? If they're so financially savvy, why do they need agents to negotiate their deals? Why have we made such a big fuss these past 10 years over how many athletes (not just NBA players) are going broke? Why should we expect them to have an advantage negotiating against a bunch of billionaires who have law degrees and MBAs and make big-picture deals all the time? As my friend Whitlock wrote earlier this week, "Stern has been balling in the basketball boardroom for three decades. The players look as out of place barging into meetings and negotiating with Stern and his lawyers as Stern and his lawyers would challenging Fisher, Wade, Garnett and Pierce on the court."

From day one, the players have approached this lockout like it's a competition — they don't want to be beaten, they're not rolling over, they're staying strong and all that macho *!+%@*%%. It's all small-picture stuff. When's the last time you heard someone from the players' side say, "Maybe the owners are right, maybe we should work with them to create a better system?" Where are the Bill Russells, the Bill Bradleys, the Oscar Robertsons, the Phil Jacksons, the Bob Cousys and Tommy Heinsohns — thoughtful stars pushing for real change instead of just pretending to be tough at a meeting? Where are the guys who stood up before the 1964 All-Star Game in Boston and basically said, "The current system is broken and needs to change NOW, or we're not playing?" Where is this generation's Larry Fleisher, a brilliant legal mind who can successfully look out for the players while also helping to shape the league's bigger picture? Seriously, where is he?

If we're relying on someone to create a new economic model to save the league, don't expect it to be the players; it's outside their means. That's what I wrote. I would have written the same thing about NHL players, NFL players or MLB players, and by the way, I wrote the same thing four years ago about the Writers Guild when they were dumb enough to give away four-plus months of paychecks because they were so obsessed with guaranteeing themselves a piece of Internet revenue going forward … only Internet revenue hadn't even come close to fully forming into anything yet. (That's why I compared the NBA players to the Hollywood writers over and over again these past few months.) If you remember, the larger point of Wednesday's column was this: The two sides should split the difference on every issue, come to a two-year détente, start playing basketball again, then spend those next two years building a better economic model that puts everyone in a better place … and if they don't, many fans will move on, and some of them might not come back.

If the players want to create that model, God bless 'em. I haven't seen any inkling from them these past few months that they're thinking that way — they're all about protecting their BRI, midlevel exception and contract lengths. Again, small-picture stuff. (It's unclear if they even realize that, by missing two months of paychecks, it's impossible for them to get that money back no matter what the deal is. And they're definitely being manipulated by agents with two sets of agendas — the ones who want salaries for stars to keep rising, and the ones who want to protect the salaries of the middle-class guys. There is no common ground. You can't have both. If we're cutting player revenue, one of those two groups will suffer.) Even during the most spirited round of talks between owners and players this week, by all accounts, it was the owners (Mark Cuban, James Dolan, Jerry Buss and Micky Arison, all of whom Billy Hunter mentioned positively in his press conference yesterday) coming up with ambitious ideas to blow things up and take the league in a different direction (including one owner who basically wanted to abolish the salary cap entirely) as well as Paul Allen and some of the small market owners who reportedly undermined that momentum before it had a chance to flourish.

We have heard little (if any) of that brainstorming coming from the players or Hunter. They're all about "holding the line" and "not bending" and "staying at 53" … meanwhile, they keep forgetting that they have no leverage whatsoever, nor can they take a hint that they're dealing with a bunch of ruthless rich dudes who will absolutely murder the 2011-12 season to get what they want. (The owners lied this whole time. They WANT to miss games. They always did. That was always the plan. The one time they nearly broke and caved the most — two weeks ago — the players blew that window with their ill-fated "we're gonna have KG, Paul and Kobe handle this" plan.) It's no different than the writers holding tough against Hollywood in 2008. And, eventually, losing. Those writers lacked the same intellectual capital to shape their business in a big-picture way that the NBA players lack right now, or that the NHL players will lack next year when they get locked out. Of course, here's how Mary Adams described the intellectual capital of players:

"Players bring all four kinds of knowledge to the table: their own knowledge and experience; their fans and relationships with teams; their contributions to playbooks and team operations plus their contributions on media like Twitter; their packaging as players and media figures."

Um, what does that have to do with creating a new economic model for the NBA again? Mary keeps going: "You could do the same analysis of owners and agents. In fact, when you look at things this way, you'll see that each group brings different pieces of the whole to the table. The reason that the players, agents and owners are all at the table together is that they need each other. And they do bring different knowledge to the table."

Totally agree. But how do those skills lead to players being the ones who actually create a better economic model? Allow me to twist Mary's words around and read between the lines like she did: "If these sides stop fighting over small-picture stuff and concentrate instead on blowing up the system and creating a better one, the players have to chip in by giving their input on fans, teams, playbooks, social media and brand packaging." You know, because the immortal "Let us play!" social media campaign was such a roaring success.

I stand by what I wrote on Wednesday: If there's legitimate big-picture progress to be made — sweeping, change-the-way-NBA-business-is-done stuff — it's going to come from the owners and agents, as well as David Stern and Billy Hunter. Yes, the four parties who put us in this mess in the first place.

(In other words, we're screwed.)
 
Originally Posted by Bigmike23

i really want to hear mark cubans point of view on all this. proably the most Pro Player owner there is in the NBA
@AlexKennedyNBA The same source said that several owners from larger markets, specifically James Dolan and Mark Cuban, seem ready to make a deal.
Cuban has reportedly loss $150 million since his acquisition of the Mavs, but then again what's $150 million to a billionaire? Especially one as passionate about winning as him.
 
Originally Posted by Bigmike23

i really want to hear mark cubans point of view on all this. proably the most Pro Player owner there is in the NBA
@AlexKennedyNBA The same source said that several owners from larger markets, specifically James Dolan and Mark Cuban, seem ready to make a deal.
Cuban has reportedly loss $150 million since his acquisition of the Mavs, but then again what's $150 million to a billionaire? Especially one as passionate about winning as him.
 
Originally Posted by Cyber Smoke

Originally Posted by Beware The Underdog

Originally Posted by CoupeIt88

RIP NBA SEASON 11-12















Another year LeBron doesn't win a ring 
laugh.gif
I wouldn't be 
laugh.gif
 if I was a knicks fan. Y'all finally on the come up and lose out on a year.

  

Not really , i'll lose out on a season to rest up stat and melo after injuries and open the season with CP3 and a totally revamped Garden
pimp.gif
Exactly, we weren't winning the championship this season anyways. We'll come back next season stronger than ever with CP3. It's going to be so lovely
 
Originally Posted by Cyber Smoke

Originally Posted by Beware The Underdog

Originally Posted by CoupeIt88

RIP NBA SEASON 11-12















Another year LeBron doesn't win a ring 
laugh.gif
I wouldn't be 
laugh.gif
 if I was a knicks fan. Y'all finally on the come up and lose out on a year.

  

Not really , i'll lose out on a season to rest up stat and melo after injuries and open the season with CP3 and a totally revamped Garden
pimp.gif
Exactly, we weren't winning the championship this season anyways. We'll come back next season stronger than ever with CP3. It's going to be so lovely
 
"We have heard little (if any) of that brainstorming coming from the players or Hunter. They're all about "holding the line" and "not bending" and "staying at 53" … meanwhile, they keep forgetting that they have no leverage whatsoever, nor can they take a hint that they're dealing with a bunch of ruthless rich dudes who will absolutely murder the 2011-12 season to get what they want.".

*cuerockhandclapgif*

Gimme your best rebuttal CP, I know you got SOMETHING to say about this since it's pretty much what I've been saying throughout this thread.
 
"We have heard little (if any) of that brainstorming coming from the players or Hunter. They're all about "holding the line" and "not bending" and "staying at 53" … meanwhile, they keep forgetting that they have no leverage whatsoever, nor can they take a hint that they're dealing with a bunch of ruthless rich dudes who will absolutely murder the 2011-12 season to get what they want.".

*cuerockhandclapgif*

Gimme your best rebuttal CP, I know you got SOMETHING to say about this since it's pretty much what I've been saying throughout this thread.
 
It isn't just about the players being dumb. The fact is there is this idol worship with the owners. That they are just soooo smart. They have such an intricate knowledge of the cba. It's kind of funny.

Why is simmons so sure that these owners who handed out ******ed contracts and ran their businesses into the ground have the mental capacity to successfully design a new system?

Why?

Because a few struck it big in real estate? Because a few were born into wealth? That article he wrote isn't very good. I just disagree with him plain and simple. He can word his little mental capacity comment however he wants
 
It isn't just about the players being dumb. The fact is there is this idol worship with the owners. That they are just soooo smart. They have such an intricate knowledge of the cba. It's kind of funny.

Why is simmons so sure that these owners who handed out ******ed contracts and ran their businesses into the ground have the mental capacity to successfully design a new system?

Why?

Because a few struck it big in real estate? Because a few were born into wealth? That article he wrote isn't very good. I just disagree with him plain and simple. He can word his little mental capacity comment however he wants
 
Who gives a @#$% if the players have no leverage, when have I ever said they did? What you just quoted backs ME up. Those bunch of ahole owners WANT to ruin the game, all they care about is their wallets. At least some of the players wants to play to win. Most do want money, of course. And Stern, the overseer of the game, he gets in bed with the owners and says @#$% the game, @#$% the players, and #$%& the fans. And you back them, why, because the players don't have leverage? Kinda warped @#$% is that? This was supposed to be a NEGOTIATION, but only the players are giving anything, the owners have given nothing, just wasted time, games, and money. Yeah, back them tho, they have leverage, and are "smart". I'm so glad you're proud of the ruthless rich dudes who are going to murder the season, congrats dude.
 
Who gives a @#$% if the players have no leverage, when have I ever said they did? What you just quoted backs ME up. Those bunch of ahole owners WANT to ruin the game, all they care about is their wallets. At least some of the players wants to play to win. Most do want money, of course. And Stern, the overseer of the game, he gets in bed with the owners and says @#$% the game, @#$% the players, and #$%& the fans. And you back them, why, because the players don't have leverage? Kinda warped @#$% is that? This was supposed to be a NEGOTIATION, but only the players are giving anything, the owners have given nothing, just wasted time, games, and money. Yeah, back them tho, they have leverage, and are "smart". I'm so glad you're proud of the ruthless rich dudes who are going to murder the season, congrats dude.
 
Bill Simmons can eat a...

The problem with his latest piece is that most of the things that he's chastising the players about (being stubborn, lacking the "intellectual capacity" to create a new economic model, etc) you can argue that the owners are guilty of the same damn thing...so what's the difference here? Why is he so PRO owner and ANTI player? He got all butt-hurt when someone suggested race, but that's just a natural defense mechanism there. The way I see it, Simmons is just like David Stern, and some of the owners, apparently don't think very highly of the players outside of their ability on the basketball court. The attitude is that these guys should play ball and be happy that they're able to make millions disgusts me, because it's almost like those who share that attitude don't look at these guys like they're real people but rather just objects of entertainment.

/rant
laugh.gif
 
Bill Simmons can eat a...

The problem with his latest piece is that most of the things that he's chastising the players about (being stubborn, lacking the "intellectual capacity" to create a new economic model, etc) you can argue that the owners are guilty of the same damn thing...so what's the difference here? Why is he so PRO owner and ANTI player? He got all butt-hurt when someone suggested race, but that's just a natural defense mechanism there. The way I see it, Simmons is just like David Stern, and some of the owners, apparently don't think very highly of the players outside of their ability on the basketball court. The attitude is that these guys should play ball and be happy that they're able to make millions disgusts me, because it's almost like those who share that attitude don't look at these guys like they're real people but rather just objects of entertainment.

/rant
laugh.gif
 
CP1708 wrote:
Who gives a @#$% if the players have no leverage, when have I ever said they did? What you just quoted backs ME up. Those bunch of ahole owners WANT to ruin the game, all they care about is their wallets. At least some of the players wants to play to win. Most do want money, of course. And Stern, the overseer of the game, he gets in bed with the owners and says @#$% the game, @#$% the players, and #$%& the fans. And you back them, why, because the players don't have leverage? Kinda warped @#$% is that? This was supposed to be a NEGOTIATION, but only the players are giving anything, the owners have given nothing, just wasted time, games, and money. Yeah, back them tho, they have leverage, and are "smart". I'm so glad you're proud of the ruthless rich dudes who are going to murder the season, congrats dude.

Bill Simmons can eat a...

The problem with his latest piece is that most of the things that he's chastising the players about (being stubborn, lacking the "intellectual capacity" to create a new economic model, etc) you can argue that the owners are guilty of the same damn thing...so what's the difference here? Why is he so PRO owner and ANTI player? He got all butt-hurt when someone suggested race, but that's just a natural defense mechanism there. The way I see it, Simmons is just like David Stern, and some of the owners, apparently don't think very highly of the players outside of their ability on the basketball court. The attitude is that these guys should play ball and be happy that they're able to make millions disgusts me, because it's almost like those who share that attitude don't look at these guys like they're real people but rather just objects of entertainment.


It doesn't help when the 2 player success story that you can point to in the modern NBA is either a gambler, flander, paid too much for his team and hasn't made a noteworthy dime outside of the marketing of himself or his "brand". Or who has HIV, and regardless of what he has done since is still looked at as a guy who cheated on his wife to the point of catching HIV. For me, They dont respect Jordan, how are they gone respect Lebron?
 
CP1708 wrote:
Who gives a @#$% if the players have no leverage, when have I ever said they did? What you just quoted backs ME up. Those bunch of ahole owners WANT to ruin the game, all they care about is their wallets. At least some of the players wants to play to win. Most do want money, of course. And Stern, the overseer of the game, he gets in bed with the owners and says @#$% the game, @#$% the players, and #$%& the fans. And you back them, why, because the players don't have leverage? Kinda warped @#$% is that? This was supposed to be a NEGOTIATION, but only the players are giving anything, the owners have given nothing, just wasted time, games, and money. Yeah, back them tho, they have leverage, and are "smart". I'm so glad you're proud of the ruthless rich dudes who are going to murder the season, congrats dude.

Bill Simmons can eat a...

The problem with his latest piece is that most of the things that he's chastising the players about (being stubborn, lacking the "intellectual capacity" to create a new economic model, etc) you can argue that the owners are guilty of the same damn thing...so what's the difference here? Why is he so PRO owner and ANTI player? He got all butt-hurt when someone suggested race, but that's just a natural defense mechanism there. The way I see it, Simmons is just like David Stern, and some of the owners, apparently don't think very highly of the players outside of their ability on the basketball court. The attitude is that these guys should play ball and be happy that they're able to make millions disgusts me, because it's almost like those who share that attitude don't look at these guys like they're real people but rather just objects of entertainment.


It doesn't help when the 2 player success story that you can point to in the modern NBA is either a gambler, flander, paid too much for his team and hasn't made a noteworthy dime outside of the marketing of himself or his "brand". Or who has HIV, and regardless of what he has done since is still looked at as a guy who cheated on his wife to the point of catching HIV. For me, They dont respect Jordan, how are they gone respect Lebron?
 
Does anyone know what happens with the draft if the whole season is wiped out?

Still curious about that.
 
Does anyone know what happens with the draft if the whole season is wiped out?

Still curious about that.
 
grittyman20 wrote:
Dude I'm not even trying to clown you but I have no idea what you're trying to say here
That's fair...
Neither side has been particularly creative in any of their proposals. But my thought was that even if a guy had a creative proposal the owners wouldn't respect it. Once again on the mantra that even the guys who are insured long term success screw it up in one way or another. The sad part is the guys who are doing the majority of the negotiating graduated college, and or have proven that they are intelligent people.  We hear bits and pieces of Michael's and Magic's business sense, and they are smart business wise, but their propensity for scandal make them either bit owners, or non owners. We all knew Buss wouldn't sell to Magic, and while I don't think between those 2 personally there was any issue with the idea, the league did not want Magic to own. You can say that with the Lakers , that is a property that will generate a crap load of money over the next 20 years for the Buss family, but Magic wanted to buy Detroit, and wasnt allowed to get serious.

I like Bill simmons can come up with as many creative proposals as I want, it doesnt mean they will be taken seriously. Bill is one of those guys who is an egomaniac, creative intelligent ( most of the time) but an egomaniac. He honestly thinks he could run the league better than Stern, and isnt shy about saying it in a passive way. There are a lot of people who think that they could run the league better than Stern. But this article is coming from a place disapointment. I think a lot of the people buying into the owners bs are people who are pissed that a player feels doesnt want to have the profits split 46-54 owners side. They look at the situation as being simplistic, get paid millions, continue to get paid millions. They love the entertainment aspect, but dont like the business aspect, nor the fact that people getting paid millions dont want to take a pay cut. These people are the same ones who want to chastise millionare CEO's getting paid millions while forgeting that live is a game, and these people played better than them. A lot of the time they have no clue about the organizational issues, no clue about the actual money these well paid CEO's decisions can and have generated and are pissed about money.

I have no sympathy for a person who expresses these type opinions without the facts. It was one thing to be pissed when the CEO's for the Detroit 3 came in asking for bailouts on private jets. In a sense thats fair. ( although they didnt know the cost of the jet fuel, pilots, stewartest services or any thing resembling actual cost)  

With the NBA lockout the facts are displayed. The NBAPA wants to make a deal, they know that if they take 50% for the entire term they are going to be jacked up. So they propose the flex deal 53% in good finanical years, 50% in bad ones. The mediator gets them down to 51/49 they tucked their #**#* between their legs on that one. Owners state that we want to create the system changes, if the money is agreed upon, Players balk at the notion that the Owners can create a system where the players get even less money than what was actually agreed upon. Talks are done.
tired.gif


Bill Simmons comes along with the same information we all have and surmises that the players are DUMB. I dont know about you, but a flex deal with the BRI is innovative to me. Any and all other innovation would be rejected, like stakes in teams for star players. Fans want the NBA players to shorten their contracts. Why? If there was a system in place that paid you what you were worth in a season with a minimum and no cap, the owners would be pissed because its a player league.
Something similar Simmons proposed
[*][*]"3. We define a 'Franchise Player' as someone who's played at least four consecutive years with one team and made three All-Star teams OR two first or second All-NBA teams during that time. Any 'Franchise Player' automatically gets a $17 million cap figure, but can be paid $500,000 per years of service beyond that number without it counting on the cap. For instance, if Dwight Howard wants to sign with the Lakers next summer, they could offer only his franchise cap number ($68 million over four years). Orlando gets the benefit of that $500k bump — eight Howard/Orlando seasons multiplied by $500,000 — so they can offer him a four-year deal worth $87 million.[sup]13[/sup] The longer he stays in Orlando and keeps playing at a 'Franchise' level, the more money Howard can earn. Makes total sense, but that is a notion that is keeping small market teams in the running after terrible move after terrible move. League time is ignored and loyality is getting Dwight Howard an extra 4 million his first year on a new contract.
Not to mention this totally ignores the concept of negotiating a BRI split, and is bribing players to stay in cities they dont want to be in. Lets continue to use Dwight Howard. The max he could get under the last CBA was $17,431,200. Under Simmons proposal hes making 21, 21.5 22, 22.5. With 10.5% raises he is at 19.26, 21.1, 23.5, and 25.9 ( call that last figure 26). Basic math tells you that Bill Simmons just took 2.8 million dollars out of Dwight Howards pocket. And thats supposed to make star players, and the NBA's rank and file happy?

[*][*]"2. Going forward, we define an 'All-Star' as someone who's played four consecutive years with one team and made two All-Star teams OR an All-NBA team during that time. Any 'All-Star' automatically gets a $12 million cap figure, but his original team can pay him up to 25 percent more than the cap figure (max: $60 million for four years). A new team can only pay him that cap figure (max: $48 million for four years). That means Deron Williams would have lost 1.8 million on his extention. and thats player friendly? Guys not getting voted into all star games, and not being media darling's who get put on all NBA teams should not be a penality. Show me someone who has an issue with Deron Williams salary and I will show you a joke. Holding him hostage in Utah would have served no one any good, and telling a player that at minimum if he is a franchise player he stands to lose 2 million dollars for leaving a team serves no one but the owners. And thats what compared to the players is supposed to be "limited intellectual capital" No Bill by phasing in salary reductions over the next 5 years ( longest contract left) the players are protecting themselves. None of your proposals or any proposal I have read addresses that issue. Every proposal I have read or created before this week has taken money out of the star players hands. Sure Westbrook and Rose get to franchise status for their coming contracts , but it makes no sense within the BRI.
The best option is to me as follows.
Arbitration beginning after year 2. Teams cannot just pick up the third and forth year on a guys contract, he is evaluated.
In my scenero Rose is evaluated after year 2. All star appearence voted by coaches = 2.5 million dollar bump ( by fans its a 1.5 million dollar bump., starting PG = 250k million dollar bump, leading scorer, and assist guy .500k bumps each 36+ minutes a game is another 250k. Total pay for his MVP season  9.5 million ( which is still a bargain) going into this season Derrick would once again be arbitration eligible, but could sign long term. his arbitration contract would look like this.
All those same bumps - the the fact he got the fan vote so 4 million in bumps + 3.5 for being MVP, 2 for first team all NBA. That would take him to 15 going into this season. Unlike in Simmons system he would have been rewarded, and its all apart of the cap.
The average arbitration would have judges looking at traditional statistics, minutes played, awards gained, games started( as most teams will sell all of their starters jerseys. With a correspondng bump in pay for that "accomplishment" in addition to licencing fees for the union) advanced statistics, such as per and efficency
Hard cap of 85 million
longest contract 5 years for franchise guys with 10.5 % raises that are perminent on that contract.
guys who arent franchise guys as designated by the teams with a max of 2 per team their max length of contract is 3 years with a max salary of 10 million. if not a franchise player you can only negociate flat deals, no annual raises for the rank and file. After the age of 28 you cannot sign a contract longer than 3 years, although if you still have franchise designation you will get a bump in annual raises to 15%, however if you are still with the same team you start at the second year of the previous 5 year contracts number so no more astrnomical 30 million contracts ( sorry Kobe)
For the record he would have lost 6 million dollars, but vets would be able to have an arbitration session in those 3 year contracts. It would be bumps for the next season and would cap wise be spread over the remaining length of the contract. So Kobe's 2010 season he would have been paid 18 million, but the arbitrator would have taken it up 2-4 million based on the season he had spread out over the final 2 years so he would have his salary increased 1 or 2 million for 2011 and 2012, but after his 15% raises. That option is only available to vets if they are determined by the arbitrators average to have been underpaid by 2+ million for 2 consecutive seasons as compared to the rest of the NBA stars.
All of this still counts against the BRI and salary cap.

All of that is to say everyone but the Union has the pay structure right. Mid class needs to be bumped down , no more 15pts 3 rebounds and 2 assists getting you 8 million if the owners keep their heads, but no more rookies getting under paid and vets getting overpaid. For most players between 23-28 is where they will make the majority of their money like they should, if your a star at 21 you wont be grosly underpaid like you were. and if your over 28, with the franchise label have the shot to be fairly compensated for a longer than usual prime. Its not perfect, but its closer, it doesn't ignore BRI, and it doesn't overpay middling players.

See Bill I can do it too without an agenda, but fairness.
 
grittyman20 wrote:
Dude I'm not even trying to clown you but I have no idea what you're trying to say here
That's fair...
Neither side has been particularly creative in any of their proposals. But my thought was that even if a guy had a creative proposal the owners wouldn't respect it. Once again on the mantra that even the guys who are insured long term success screw it up in one way or another. The sad part is the guys who are doing the majority of the negotiating graduated college, and or have proven that they are intelligent people.  We hear bits and pieces of Michael's and Magic's business sense, and they are smart business wise, but their propensity for scandal make them either bit owners, or non owners. We all knew Buss wouldn't sell to Magic, and while I don't think between those 2 personally there was any issue with the idea, the league did not want Magic to own. You can say that with the Lakers , that is a property that will generate a crap load of money over the next 20 years for the Buss family, but Magic wanted to buy Detroit, and wasnt allowed to get serious.

I like Bill simmons can come up with as many creative proposals as I want, it doesnt mean they will be taken seriously. Bill is one of those guys who is an egomaniac, creative intelligent ( most of the time) but an egomaniac. He honestly thinks he could run the league better than Stern, and isnt shy about saying it in a passive way. There are a lot of people who think that they could run the league better than Stern. But this article is coming from a place disapointment. I think a lot of the people buying into the owners bs are people who are pissed that a player feels doesnt want to have the profits split 46-54 owners side. They look at the situation as being simplistic, get paid millions, continue to get paid millions. They love the entertainment aspect, but dont like the business aspect, nor the fact that people getting paid millions dont want to take a pay cut. These people are the same ones who want to chastise millionare CEO's getting paid millions while forgeting that live is a game, and these people played better than them. A lot of the time they have no clue about the organizational issues, no clue about the actual money these well paid CEO's decisions can and have generated and are pissed about money.

I have no sympathy for a person who expresses these type opinions without the facts. It was one thing to be pissed when the CEO's for the Detroit 3 came in asking for bailouts on private jets. In a sense thats fair. ( although they didnt know the cost of the jet fuel, pilots, stewartest services or any thing resembling actual cost)  

With the NBA lockout the facts are displayed. The NBAPA wants to make a deal, they know that if they take 50% for the entire term they are going to be jacked up. So they propose the flex deal 53% in good finanical years, 50% in bad ones. The mediator gets them down to 51/49 they tucked their #**#* between their legs on that one. Owners state that we want to create the system changes, if the money is agreed upon, Players balk at the notion that the Owners can create a system where the players get even less money than what was actually agreed upon. Talks are done.
tired.gif


Bill Simmons comes along with the same information we all have and surmises that the players are DUMB. I dont know about you, but a flex deal with the BRI is innovative to me. Any and all other innovation would be rejected, like stakes in teams for star players. Fans want the NBA players to shorten their contracts. Why? If there was a system in place that paid you what you were worth in a season with a minimum and no cap, the owners would be pissed because its a player league.
Something similar Simmons proposed
[*][*]"3. We define a 'Franchise Player' as someone who's played at least four consecutive years with one team and made three All-Star teams OR two first or second All-NBA teams during that time. Any 'Franchise Player' automatically gets a $17 million cap figure, but can be paid $500,000 per years of service beyond that number without it counting on the cap. For instance, if Dwight Howard wants to sign with the Lakers next summer, they could offer only his franchise cap number ($68 million over four years). Orlando gets the benefit of that $500k bump — eight Howard/Orlando seasons multiplied by $500,000 — so they can offer him a four-year deal worth $87 million.[sup]13[/sup] The longer he stays in Orlando and keeps playing at a 'Franchise' level, the more money Howard can earn. Makes total sense, but that is a notion that is keeping small market teams in the running after terrible move after terrible move. League time is ignored and loyality is getting Dwight Howard an extra 4 million his first year on a new contract.
Not to mention this totally ignores the concept of negotiating a BRI split, and is bribing players to stay in cities they dont want to be in. Lets continue to use Dwight Howard. The max he could get under the last CBA was $17,431,200. Under Simmons proposal hes making 21, 21.5 22, 22.5. With 10.5% raises he is at 19.26, 21.1, 23.5, and 25.9 ( call that last figure 26). Basic math tells you that Bill Simmons just took 2.8 million dollars out of Dwight Howards pocket. And thats supposed to make star players, and the NBA's rank and file happy?

[*][*]"2. Going forward, we define an 'All-Star' as someone who's played four consecutive years with one team and made two All-Star teams OR an All-NBA team during that time. Any 'All-Star' automatically gets a $12 million cap figure, but his original team can pay him up to 25 percent more than the cap figure (max: $60 million for four years). A new team can only pay him that cap figure (max: $48 million for four years). That means Deron Williams would have lost 1.8 million on his extention. and thats player friendly? Guys not getting voted into all star games, and not being media darling's who get put on all NBA teams should not be a penality. Show me someone who has an issue with Deron Williams salary and I will show you a joke. Holding him hostage in Utah would have served no one any good, and telling a player that at minimum if he is a franchise player he stands to lose 2 million dollars for leaving a team serves no one but the owners. And thats what compared to the players is supposed to be "limited intellectual capital" No Bill by phasing in salary reductions over the next 5 years ( longest contract left) the players are protecting themselves. None of your proposals or any proposal I have read addresses that issue. Every proposal I have read or created before this week has taken money out of the star players hands. Sure Westbrook and Rose get to franchise status for their coming contracts , but it makes no sense within the BRI.
The best option is to me as follows.
Arbitration beginning after year 2. Teams cannot just pick up the third and forth year on a guys contract, he is evaluated.
In my scenero Rose is evaluated after year 2. All star appearence voted by coaches = 2.5 million dollar bump ( by fans its a 1.5 million dollar bump., starting PG = 250k million dollar bump, leading scorer, and assist guy .500k bumps each 36+ minutes a game is another 250k. Total pay for his MVP season  9.5 million ( which is still a bargain) going into this season Derrick would once again be arbitration eligible, but could sign long term. his arbitration contract would look like this.
All those same bumps - the the fact he got the fan vote so 4 million in bumps + 3.5 for being MVP, 2 for first team all NBA. That would take him to 15 going into this season. Unlike in Simmons system he would have been rewarded, and its all apart of the cap.
The average arbitration would have judges looking at traditional statistics, minutes played, awards gained, games started( as most teams will sell all of their starters jerseys. With a correspondng bump in pay for that "accomplishment" in addition to licencing fees for the union) advanced statistics, such as per and efficency
Hard cap of 85 million
longest contract 5 years for franchise guys with 10.5 % raises that are perminent on that contract.
guys who arent franchise guys as designated by the teams with a max of 2 per team their max length of contract is 3 years with a max salary of 10 million. if not a franchise player you can only negociate flat deals, no annual raises for the rank and file. After the age of 28 you cannot sign a contract longer than 3 years, although if you still have franchise designation you will get a bump in annual raises to 15%, however if you are still with the same team you start at the second year of the previous 5 year contracts number so no more astrnomical 30 million contracts ( sorry Kobe)
For the record he would have lost 6 million dollars, but vets would be able to have an arbitration session in those 3 year contracts. It would be bumps for the next season and would cap wise be spread over the remaining length of the contract. So Kobe's 2010 season he would have been paid 18 million, but the arbitrator would have taken it up 2-4 million based on the season he had spread out over the final 2 years so he would have his salary increased 1 or 2 million for 2011 and 2012, but after his 15% raises. That option is only available to vets if they are determined by the arbitrators average to have been underpaid by 2+ million for 2 consecutive seasons as compared to the rest of the NBA stars.
All of this still counts against the BRI and salary cap.

All of that is to say everyone but the Union has the pay structure right. Mid class needs to be bumped down , no more 15pts 3 rebounds and 2 assists getting you 8 million if the owners keep their heads, but no more rookies getting under paid and vets getting overpaid. For most players between 23-28 is where they will make the majority of their money like they should, if your a star at 21 you wont be grosly underpaid like you were. and if your over 28, with the franchise label have the shot to be fairly compensated for a longer than usual prime. Its not perfect, but its closer, it doesn't ignore BRI, and it doesn't overpay middling players.

See Bill I can do it too without an agenda, but fairness.
 
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