Congress clears historic health care bill...

[callhimar]

Originally Posted by Burns1923

It's called caring enough about your fellow man and the culture of our country to give a little bit back to make things better for the future and present. draining self-sufficient Americans of their rightful earnings. 

Let me ask: If you perpertually do for someone, what impetus will they ever have to do for themselves?

Very easy to dine on someone else's dime.

We have two very different views of "do." I view education and health care as a right. It is something that no person should be denied. We are not talking about welfare, which is another issue although not that different.

 

[superantigen]

Originally Posted by UTVOL23

Originally Posted by SuperAntigen

Originally Posted by UTVOL23

I paid for my college by working since I was 15. I had to borrow money for medical school over 250K in fact.

So considering you didn't have 250K to begin with, and had to "burrow" that money--could it be said that you received a hand-out of 250K to finance your education correct?

Or maybe I should phrase it this way: you received a lending hand/help before you could get to where you are today?

I wonder what your life would be like if that rich guy who financed your education had decided NOT to help you/invest 250K in you.


...

Are you kidding me? How was that a hand out? I am adding on thousands and thousands of dollars in interest a month yeah that really sounds like a helping hand. Be real. That is not a helping hand it is just impossible to pay 69K for one year of school unless you borrow the money. I am getting nothing handed to me. I have to pay ALL of it back plus by the time I will get done paying it back I only borrowed 250K but will have paid at least 500K back due to interest.

Many of these loans are unsecured debt. They are being taken out from banks not some rich guy who decided to help me out.

And I suppose you think that banks are autonomous entities that just arose out of thin air correct. Add to that the fact that when they came out of thin air, they were already loaded with all the money they would ever need--some of which was the very capital that was loaned to you...right?...

You may choose not to look at it as such, but the fact is the loans you took out = financial [color= rgb(255, 0, 0)]AID[/color].

And that AID came from somewhere and out of someones pocket/hand--hence you receiving a "lending hand". Now while you were charged interest, it doesn't change the fact that YOU RECEIVED HELP in getting where you are today, professionally speaking, via financial [color= rgb(255, 0, 0)]AID[/color].

...

 

[All Ready]

We recently had a meeting at my job saying that they are trying to even out insurance across every company

If your company wants to keep better benefits, the company will be taxed a larger percentage of money

I highly doubt most companies will choose to get taxed more to satisfy workers

That is def terrible because the ONLY reason I'm still at my current job is because of the excellent benefits

 

[Johnny_Cakes]

Originally Posted by Burns1923

Government cannot mandate that citizens purchase anything.

Except car insurance, right?

 

[billy hoyle]

i now nothing about this but what does it mean to the people? free health insurance? someone explain to me please! THANKS

 

[wawaweewa]

Originally Posted by SuperAntigen

Originally Posted by UTVOL23

Originally Posted by SuperAntigen

Originally Posted by UTVOL23

I paid for my college by working since I was 15. I had to borrow money for medical school over 250K in fact.

So considering you didn't have 250K to begin with, and had to "burrow" that money--could it be said that you received a hand-out of 250K to finance your education correct?

Or maybe I should phrase it this way: you received a lending hand/help before you could get to where you are today?

I wonder what your life would be like if that rich guy who financed your education had decided NOT to help you/invest 250K in you.


...

Are you kidding me? How was that a hand out? I am adding on thousands and thousands of dollars in interest a month yeah that really sounds like a helping hand. Be real. That is not a helping hand it is just impossible to pay 69K for one year of school unless you borrow the money. I am getting nothing handed to me. I have to pay ALL of it back plus by the time I will get done paying it back I only borrowed 250K but will have paid at least 500K back due to interest.

Many of these loans are unsecured debt. They are being taken out from banks not some rich guy who decided to help me out.

And I suppose you think that banks are autonomous entities that just arose out of thin air correct. Add to that the fact that when they came out of thin air, they were already loaded with all the money they would ever need--some of which was the very capital that was loaned to you...right?...

You may choose not to look at it as such, but the fact is the loans you took out = financial [color= rgb(255, 0, 0)]AID[/color].

And that AID came from somewhere and out of someones pocket/hand--hence you receiving a "lending hand". Now while you were charged interest, it doesn't change the fact that YOU RECEIVED HELP in getting where you are today, professionally speaking, via financial [color= rgb(255, 0, 0)]AID[/color].

...

So you deposit your capital at a bank in order to help that bank out?
You are given a loan not because the lender wants to aid you. You are given the loan because the lender sees a personal benefit from providing access to that capital to you.

 

[burns1923]

Originally Posted by CallHimAR

Originally Posted by Burns1923

It's called caring enough about your fellow man and the culture of our country to give a little bit back to make things better for the future and present. draining self-sufficient Americans of their rightful earnings. 

Let me ask: If you perpertually do for someone, what impetus will they ever have to do for themselves?

Very easy to dine on someone else's dime.

We have two very different views of "do." I view education and health care as a right. It is something that no person should be denied. We are not talking about welfare, which is another issue although not that different.

Obviously different.  In my view, education and health care couldn't be further from a "right".  It is not the government's job to create them.  Furthermore, these "rights" must be paid for.  If the have-nots can't/won't, someone must.  This is classic redistribution.  I doubt you'll agree but from my vantage point this is not about health care at all.  It's about instituting a framework by which to demolish and reconstruct American society. 

 

[shaunhillftw49]

Originally Posted by Billy Hoyle

i now nothing about this but what does it mean to the people? free health insurance? someone explain to me please! THANKS

Covered under parents until 26.
Can't be denied for pre-existing condition
Expands medicare (expensive)
Raises taxes.
Mandates the purchasing of health insurance. Likely hurt businesses.
Student loan bill included

 

[oidreez]

Originally Posted by Burns1923

It's called caring enough about your fellow man and the culture of our country to give a little bit back to make things better for the future and present. draining self-sufficient Americans of their rightful earnings. 

Let me ask: If you perpetually do for someone, what impetus will they ever have to do for themselves?

Very easy to dine on someone else's dime.


you must be one of those people who scoff at homeless people...

 

[utvol23]

Right the banks lend the money cause they are going to get a profit in return not because in the kindness of their heart they want to help me succeed.

 

[capricorn1229]

Originally Posted by Burns1923

It's called caring enough about your fellow man and the culture of our country to give a little bit back to make things better for the future and present. draining self-sufficient Americans of their rightful earnings. 

Let me ask: If you perpetually do for someone, what impetus will they ever have to do for themselves?

Very easy to dine on someone else's dime.


You disgust me. 

 I bet you are one of those people that benefit from being in the 'have' sector just by your birth. This scares you. Makes the playing field just that much more closer to being even huh?

 

[callhimar]

Originally Posted by Burns1923

Originally Posted by CallHimAR

Originally Posted by Burns1923

It's called caring enough about your fellow man and the culture of our country to give a little bit back to make things better for the future and present. draining self-sufficient Americans of their rightful earnings. 

Let me ask: If you perpertually do for someone, what impetus will they ever have to do for themselves?

Very easy to dine on someone else's dime.

We have two very different views of "do." I view education and health care as a right. It is something that no person should be denied. We are not talking about welfare, which is another issue although not that different.

Obviously different.  In my view, education and health care couldn't be further from a "right".  It is not the government's job to create them.  Furthermore, these "rights" must be paid for.  If the have-nots can't/won't, someone must.  This is classic redistribution.  I doubt you'll agree but from my vantage point this is not about health care at all.  It's about instituting a framework by which to demolish and reconstruct American society. 

There have been a number of instances throughout American history where progressive thinkers attempted to change America for the good while a number of people who are stuck in their ways tried to block it. I cannot for the life of me understand how you can say higher education and the ability to go to a hospital/doctor and get care no matter what are not rights. It's mind boggling and it scares the hell out of me that we've gotten to a point where looking out for our fellow Americans is frowned upon. Obviously I have no problem with what you call "classic redistribution" because I believe in a mix of Socialism and Capitalism, leaning more toward the godless America destroying Socialist side.

 

[burns1923]

Originally Posted by Th3RealF0lkBlu3s

Originally Posted by Burns1923

Government cannot mandate that citizens purchase anything.

Except car insurance, right?

Ah, I love this rebuttal. 

Nope.  First, no government - state or federal - can mandate that I buy a car.  Even if others do have a car and insurance (where applicable by states rights), I'm not legally responsible for subsidizing those people's car insurance.  In this health care bill, people will necessarily be required to subsidize a service (health care) for others regardless of whether or not I myself take part of that service.  As I previously mentioned, the Constitution forbids a federal mandate for United States citizens to purchase any product or service. 

Second, car insurance is not a federal mandate.  It is still a state issue.  Some states require it, some don't.  If I live in a state that requires it and I don't like it, I'm free to move to a state that doesn't require it.  Also, we don't subsidize each other's car insurance nor are we required by the federal government to do so a la the health care bill.

 

[superantigen]

Originally Posted by wawaweewa

Originally Posted by SuperAntigen

Originally Posted by UTVOL23

Originally Posted by SuperAntigen

Originally Posted by UTVOL23

I paid for my college by working since I was 15. I had to borrow money for medical school over 250K in fact.

So considering you didn't have 250K to begin with, and had to "burrow" that money--could it be said that you received a hand-out of 250K to finance your education correct?

Or maybe I should phrase it this way: you received a lending hand/help before you could get to where you are today?

I wonder what your life would be like if that rich guy who financed your education had decided NOT to help you/invest 250K in you.


...

Are you kidding me? How was that a hand out? I am adding on thousands and thousands of dollars in interest a month yeah that really sounds like a helping hand. Be real. That is not a helping hand it is just impossible to pay 69K for one year of school unless you borrow the money. I am getting nothing handed to me. I have to pay ALL of it back plus by the time I will get done paying it back I only borrowed 250K but will have paid at least 500K back due to interest.

Many of these loans are unsecured debt. They are being taken out from banks not some rich guy who decided to help me out.

And I suppose you think that banks are autonomous entities that just arose out of thin air correct. Add to that the fact that when they came out of thin air, they were already loaded with all the money they would ever need--some of which was the very capital that was loaned to you...right?...

You may choose not to look at it as such, but the fact is the loans you took out = financial [color= rgb(255, 0, 0)]AID[/color].

And that AID came from somewhere and out of someones pocket/hand--hence you receiving a "lending hand". Now while you were charged interest, it doesn't change the fact that YOU RECEIVED HELP in getting where you are today, professionally speaking, via financial [color= rgb(255, 0, 0)]AID[/color].

...

So you deposit your capital at a bank in order to [color= rgb(255, 0, 0)]help[/color] that bank out?
You are given a loan not because the lender wants to aid you. You are given the loan because the lender sees a [color= rgb(255, 0, 255)]personal [/color]benefit from providing access to that capital to you.

It's not the obvious thought and/or goal but in certain instances, that's exactly what your capital does.

This is entering that world known as semantics.

I could very take your point and say that, a lender chooses to give me loan because a personal benefit can be derived from aiding me. Furthermore, in order for one (lender) to give, another must be willing to receive (burrower). No one forces you to take a loan. A burrower accepts one because they need the [color= rgb(255, 0, 255)]AID[/color].

aid
noun
1 with the aid of his colleagues he prepared a manifesto: assistance, support, help, backing, cooperation; a helping hand. antonym hindrance.
2 humanitarian aid relief, charity, financial assistance, donations, contributions, subsidies, handouts, subvention, succor; historical alms.

verb
1 he provided an army to aid the King of England: help, assist, abet, come to someone's aid, give assistance, [color= rgb(255, 0, 0)]lend a hand[/color], be of service; avail, succor, sustain. antonym hinder.
2 certain teas can aid restful sleep facilitate, promote, encourage, help, further, boost; speed up, hasten, accelerate, expedite. antonym discourage, hinder.


Like I implied earlier, the hypocrisy is disgusting in this country...

...

 

[shaunhillftw49]

Is the GOP site down for everyone else?

 

[billy hoyle]

so we still have to buy insurance? im confused.

 

[essential1]

Originally Posted by UTVOL23

Free college too huh Hell lets just make everything FREE. Oh wait there is no such thing. Someone has to pay for it. Obviously you are not one of the people paying for it. Why should I have to pay a ridiculous amount in taxes? The top 20% pay 80% of the taxes. When does it end?

I paid for my college by working since I was 15. I had to borrow money for medical school over 250K in fact.

Top 20% have 80% of the income...  It is by all means fair.. When you also factor in the tremendous amount of loopholes in the tax code that the upper class know about through accountants and etc. that the people who can't afford a person to do their taxes do not know about...

Tax rate at 45%  >  90% in the 1950s... STOP COMPLAINING...

Also you can blame the failings of conservative ideology on economy by giving massive taxcuts of the rich and deregulating corporations creating multiple downturns in the economy for shrinking the middle class and creating the biggest disparity of wealth ever.. That is the real REDISTRIBUTION OF WEALTH that you guys should have %%#%% about in 2008.

You make a +@++ load more.... You should pay more.. It is a staple of capitalism.. Unless you want communism where we all make the same and put into the same pot to have absolute fairness...

 

[hoosiers4life]

Originally Posted by Burns1923

Originally Posted by Th3RealF0lkBlu3s

Originally Posted by Burns1923

Government cannot mandate that citizens purchase anything.

Except car insurance, right?

Ah, I love this rebuttal. 

Nope.  First, no government - state or federal - can mandate that I buy a car.  Even if others do have a car and insurance (where applicable by states rights), I'm not legally responsible for subsidizing those people's car insurance.  In this health care bill, people will necessarily be required to subsidize a service (health care) for others regardless of whether or not I myself take part of that service.  As I previously mentioned, the Constitution forbids a federal mandate for United States citizens to purchase any product or service. 

Second, car insurance is not a federal mandate.  It is still a state issue.  Some states require it, some don't.  If I live in a state that requires it and I don't like it, I'm free to move to a state that doesn't require it.  Also, we don't subsidize each other's car insurance nor are we required by the federal government to do so a la the health care bill.

Please show me where this is in the Constitution.  Thanks.

 

[essential1]

Originally Posted by Billy Hoyle

so we still have to buy insurance? im confused.

yeah... there is a mandate that everyone has to buy insurance... In my opinion it is the biggest downside of the bill..  They do give subsides for lower income and some middle class people.. But there should be a complete government insurance they can enter into for less cost and equal care.. That is why it is a downside and the fact it expands the Private Insurance Companies by 30 million customers...

The upside of it is those who are uninsured really drain on those who are insured... Because it leads to people going to the emergency room and increased costs for everyone.... But a majority of the people without insurance don't have it because they can't afford it.. Or are high risk (pre-existing conditions)..

So the bill has the right premise but the wrong Idea

 

[wawaweewa]

Originally Posted by SuperAntigen

Originally Posted by wawaweewa

Originally Posted by SuperAntigen

Originally Posted by UTVOL23

Originally Posted by SuperAntigen

Originally Posted by UTVOL23

I paid for my college by working since I was 15. I had to borrow money for medical school over 250K in fact.

So considering you didn't have 250K to begin with, and had to "burrow" that money--could it be said that you received a hand-out of 250K to finance your education correct?

Or maybe I should phrase it this way: you received a lending hand/help before you could get to where you are today?

I wonder what your life would be like if that rich guy who financed your education had decided NOT to help you/invest 250K in you.


...

Are you kidding me? How was that a hand out? I am adding on thousands and thousands of dollars in interest a month yeah that really sounds like a helping hand. Be real. That is not a helping hand it is just impossible to pay 69K for one year of school unless you borrow the money. I am getting nothing handed to me. I have to pay ALL of it back plus by the time I will get done paying it back I only borrowed 250K but will have paid at least 500K back due to interest.

Many of these loans are unsecured debt. They are being taken out from banks not some rich guy who decided to help me out.

And I suppose you think that banks are autonomous entities that just arose out of thin air correct. Add to that the fact that when they came out of thin air, they were already loaded with all the money they would ever need--some of which was the very capital that was loaned to you...right?...

You may choose not to look at it as such, but the fact is the loans you took out = financial [color= rgb(255, 0, 0)]AID[/color].

And that AID came from somewhere and out of someones pocket/hand--hence you receiving a "lending hand". Now while you were charged interest, it doesn't change the fact that YOU RECEIVED HELP in getting where you are today, professionally speaking, via financial [color= rgb(255, 0, 0)]AID[/color].

...

So you deposit your capital at a bank in order to [color= rgb(255, 0, 0)]help[/color] that bank out?
You are given a loan not because the lender wants to aid you. You are given the loan because the lender sees a [color= rgb(255, 0, 255)]personal [/color]benefit from providing access to that capital to you.

It's not the obvious thought and/or goal but in certain instances, that's exactly what your capital does.

This is entering that world known as semantics.

I could very take your point and say that, a lender chooses to give me loan because a personal benefit can be derived from aiding me. Furthermore, in order for one (lender) to give, another must be willing to receive (burrower). No one forces you to take a loan. A burrower accepts one because they need the [color= rgb(255, 0, 255)]AID[/color].

aid
noun
1 with the aid of his colleagues he prepared a manifesto: assistance, support, help, backing, cooperation; a helping hand. antonym hindrance.
2 humanitarian aid relief, charity, financial assistance, donations, contributions, subsidies, handouts, subvention, succor; historical alms.

verb
1 he provided an army to aid the King of England: help, assist, abet, come to someone's aid, give assistance, [color= rgb(255, 0, 0)]lend a hand[/color], be of service; avail, succor, sustain. antonym hinder.
2 certain teas can aid restful sleep facilitate, promote, encourage, help, further, boost; speed up, hasten, accelerate, expedite. antonym discourage, hinder.

Like I implied earlier, the hypocrisy is disgusting in this country...

...

You're the one playing the semantics game.
Of course your deposit is aiding the bank. If it wasn't then they wouldn't take your money. There is a mutual benefit whereby both you and the bank benefit from the arrangement.
Neither you nor the bank agree to the arrangement because either one of you wants to "help" the other out.

Why are you providing a definition for "aid"? Look up the definition for a loan (specifically an interest loan) and nowhere will you find the words "aid" or "help".

 

[shaunhillftw49]

Originally Posted by Essential1

Originally Posted by Billy Hoyle

so we still have to buy insurance? im confused.

yeah... there is a mandate that everyone has to buy insurance... In my opinion it is the biggest downside of the bill..  They do give subsides for lower income and some middle class people.. But there should be a complete government insurance they can enter into for less cost and equal care.. That is why it is a downside and the fact it expands the Private Insurance Companies by 30 million customers...

The upside of it is those who are uninsured really drain on those who are insured... Because it leads to people going to the emergency room and increased costs for everyone....

So the bill has the right premise but the wrong Idea

Yeah, Dems failed on this. SMH Rahm

 

[callhimar]

Originally Posted by Essential1

Originally Posted by Billy Hoyle

so we still have to buy insurance? im confused.

yeah... there is a mandate that everyone has to buy insurance... In my opinion it is the biggest downside of the bill..  They do give subsides for lower income and some middle class people.. But there should be a complete government insurance they can enter into for less cost and equal care.. That is why it is a downside and the fact it expands the Private Insurance Companies by 30 million customers...

The upside of it is those who are uninsured really drain on those who are insured... Because it leads to people going to the emergency room and increased costs for everyone.... But a majority of the people without insurance don't have it because they can't afford it.. Or are high risk (pre-existing conditions)..

So the bill has the right premise but the wrong Idea

I agree with everything you said, but I think this is being used as a springboard to future reform where some type of universal system is brought in. At least I hope that's the case.

 

[billy hoyle]

so is it gonna be expensive? im just wondering the main reason people dont have insurance is because it costs A LOT

 

[dynamic x]

Originally Posted by Billy Hoyle

so is it gonna be expensive? im just wondering the main reason people dont have insurance is because it costs A LOT

What do you think this bill is even about?

It's not about price, it's about making sure everyone gets health care. This health care is funded by taxes. If you're rich, then in a way, it will be "expensive" because you will pay more since you earn more.

 

[imasoleman18]

is there a health care bill for dummys? cuz im not the best reader and i already know if i try to read all the stuff it wont end well