Kanye West: King of the Sunken Place, "Watch the Throne"

[frenchbreadbuilds]

Also think that it’s ironic Money and finances are often sited as a major reason for divorce, but the low rates of marriage under the poverty line are looked at as one of the primary causes for poverty to begin with

 

[ninjahood]

Has anyone claimed there is a mass firing of black people?

Or have people been telling you over and over that data shows racial discrimination in hiring and pay in the job market followed by data and studies to support it?

You’re chasing ghost arguments no one is making.

da real question is if a person doesn't feel it, you expect em to believe it? or care for that matter?

that's why its perilous to treat an entire group as a monolith, cuz a trend ≠ a absolute.

 

[ninjahood]

Who the hell puts sugar on grits

if u put put syrup its essentially da same thing..

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

da real question is if a person doesn't feel it, you expect em to believe it? or care for that matter?

that's why its perilous to treat an entire group as a monolith, cuz a trend ≠ a absolute.

I don’t Expect anyone to believe anything with out anything to support it. But this guys has literally asked for anecdotal evidence in lieu of data on more than one occasion. At the very least I can say you and I digest data and information differently. He’s saying it doesn’t mean anything. And gives nothing to substantiate it. But then claims to want open discussion

 

[SC kid]

if u put put syrup its essentially da same thing..

That's called "yankee grits" lol

Don't fly down here.

No more detail from me.....continue fellas

 

[shotsrangout]

Hmmm so I guess we’re still gonna let bigoted thought ride on this forum as long as it’s targeted toward Blacks. This forum is such a shining example of the fairness and equality that it’s leader pretends to practice. But let me make a comment about whites or Asians and my post is swiftly deleted and meth is in my inbox

Meth is a white man with a black wife

 

[htg designs]

Thought meth was trans

 

[PatRiley]

Meth isn’t human, I see him more like a Dr. Manhattan

 

[RIP sleazyy]

does da black community accept ANY black conservative/republican as a member their own without resorting to uncle this, and biscuit that?

James Farmer.

I was a James Farmer Scholar in middle and high school

Oh and Booker T Washington. Modern day I'm not really familiar with any tbh.

 

[duba169]

New song just shows Kanye has zero understanding what he’s talking about. Guess I shouldn’t be surprised after he literally said he doesn’t even know what conservatism is. TI asking specific questions and Kanye just giving stupid vague *** “I’m on some unifying ****/first blood to shake the hand of a crip”.

Not to mention the problematic as hell “all blacks gotta be democrats, we ain’t made it off the plantation” as if black people aren’t smart enough to make educated voting choices based on their priorities and are enslaved by Dems. Typical right talking point tho. Someone should educate him on why people vote the way they do (i.e after Civil Rights act southern whites vote Repub, Blacks vote Democrat). LBJ’s famous declaration after signing the civil rights act which republicans opposed: “we have lost the south for a generation”.

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

One thing I’ve learned from listening to urban view on SiriusXM is that there are tons of black conservatives that believe in conservative ideology but don’t take part in Uncle Thomas politics. They also don’t co-sign the way current conservative politics has underserved the black community. They just feel the best way to go about doing things is to seek change with in their own (republican) party. I don’t agree with the ideology but it’s not politics based on a generalized view of “black culture”. which I respect.

 

[hennessy beach]

Thread needs more unity

Neither view point wants to meet in the middle which is the issue in America. “Us vs them”

 

[ninjahood]

Modern day I'm not really familiar with any tbh.

yeah, thats what im waiting to hear.

 

[duba169]

Thread needs more unity

Neither view point wants to meet in the middle which is the issue in America. “Us vs them”

Obama did this for 8 years and then they chose Trump as their candidate. Also define what you see the opposing view points I’d be curious. To me, their viewpoint of a country gone astray because immigrants stole white peoples jobs and blacks won’t stop complaining even though they are just inherently lazy/criminal is something I just can’t reason with.

 

[hennessy beach]

Obama did this for 8 years and then they chose Trump as their candidate. Also define what you see the opposing view points I’d be curious. To me, their viewpoint of a country gone astray because immigrants stole white peoples jobs and blacks won’t stop complaining even though they are just inherently lazy/criminal is something I just can’t reason with.

Yup that’s a part of some of the viewpoints on one side that I don’t agree with.

There are view points on the other side that lack accountability that i don’t agree with also.

To be honest, I’m exhausted from the topic as I’ve said all my opinions yesterday but in closing their has to be compromise on both sides. And Kanye about to drop a classic album

 

[Belgium]

Anecdotes is what all this **** is based on! Individual accounts! There is no mass firing of black people.

Strawman. You're trying to distort the argument into a non-existant and absurd argument.
Anecdotes are worthless on their own when arguing broader statistics. At the end of the day, statistics are essentially data from mass amounts of anecdotes.
I imagine there are many New Yorkers who haven't been harassed by stop and frisk or didn't see it as problematic in any way. There is at least one New Yorker on NT who supports stop and frisk for example. Those are anecdotes. But broader statistics and data do not support those anecdotes. And as a result, the implementation of stop and frisk in NYC was ruled an unconstitutional violation of the 4th and 14th amendments.

Here and some statistics for example (Source: NYPD Annual reports)
https://www.nyclu.org/en/Stop-and-Frisk-data

• In 2002, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 97,296 times.
  80,176 were totally innocent (82 percent).
• In 2003, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 160,851 times.
  140,442 were totally innocent (87 percent).
  77,704 were black (54 percent).
  44,581 were Latino (31 percent).
  17,623 were white (12 percent).
  83,499 were aged 14-24 (55 percent).
• Total % of black and latino stops: 85%
• In 2004, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 313,523 times.
  278,933 were totally innocent (89 percent).
  155,033 were black (55 percent).
  89,937 were Latino (32 percent).
  28,913 were white (10 percent).
  152,196 were aged 14-24 (52 percent).
• Total % of black and latino stops: 87%
• In 2005, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 398,191 times.
  352,348 were totally innocent (89 percent).
  196,570 were black (54 percent).
  115,088 were Latino (32 percent).
  40,713 were white (11 percent).
  189,854 were aged 14-24 (51 percent).
• Total % of black and latino stops: 86%

• In 2006, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 506,491 times.
  457,163 were totally innocent (90 percent).
  267,468 were black (53 percent).
  147,862 were Latino (29 percent).
  53,500 were white (11 percent).
  247,691 were aged 14-24 (50 percent).
• Total % of black and latino stops: 82%

• In 2007, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 472,096 times.
  410,936 were totally innocent (87 percent).
  243,766 were black (54 percent).
  141,868 were Latino (31 percent).
  52,887 were white (12 percent).
  223,783 were aged 14-24 (48 percent).
• Total % of black and latino stops: 85%

• In 2008, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 540,302 times.
  474,387 were totally innocent (88 percent).
  275,588 were black (53 percent).
  168,475 were Latino (32 percent).
  57,650 were white (11 percent).
  263,408 were aged 14-24 (49 percent).
• Total % of black and latino stops: 85%

• In 2009, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 581,168 times.
  510,742 were totally innocent (88 percent).
  310,611 were black (55 percent).
  180,055 were Latino (32 percent).
  53,601 were white (10 percent).
  289,602 were aged 14-24 (50 percent).
• Total % of black and latino stops: 87%

• In 2010, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 601,285 times.
  518,849 were totally innocent (86 percent).
  315,083 were black (54 percent).
  189,326 were Latino (33 percent).
  54,810 were white (9 percent).
  295,902 were aged 14-24 (49 percent).
• Total % of black and latino stops: 87%

• In 2011, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 685,724 times.
  605,328 were totally innocent (88 percent).
  350,743 were black (53 percent).
  223,740 were Latino (34 percent).
  61,805 were white (9 percent).
  341,581 were aged 14-24 (51 percent).
• Total % of black and latino stops: 87%

• In 2012, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 532,911 times
  473,644 were totally innocent (89 percent).
  284,229 were black (55 percent).
  165,140 were Latino (32 percent).
  50,366 were white (10 percent).
• Total % of black and latino stops: 87%

And here are some additional statistics used in the Floyd vs. City Of New York lawsuit, which examined full records of 4.4 million stop and frisk searches over a period of 2004 to June 2012.
Source: University of Pennsylvania Law Review on Floyd vs. City Of New York.

As you can see, in 83% of 4.4 million stops, the person stopped was black or hispanic. NYC population records from 2010 show that its resident population was 33% white, 29% hispanic and 23% black. Yet whites only made up 10% of the 4.4 million stops. Now let's look at the NYPD's data on the results of those 4.4m stops.

Let's look at the rates of weapons being seized first, remember that blacks and hispanics account for 83% of all stops.
- Weapons were seized in 1% of stops of blacks
- Weapons were seized in 1.1% of stops of hispanics
- Weapons were seized in 1.4% of stops of whites
Here we see that the whites not only top the population charts but also the rates of weapons being seized by stops. Now let's move on to contraband excluding weapons.

- Contraband was seized in 1.8% of stops of blacks
- Contraband was seized in 1.7% of stops of hispanics
- Contraband was seized in 2.3% of stops of whites
Again we see here that the whites top the rates of stops resulting in seizing contraband.

As we can tell by these statistics, there is quite a pattern here. Not only were weapons and/or contraband found on blacks and hispanics at lower rates than whites, they were stopped at an enormously high rate compared to whites. A combined 83% of all stops were of black people and hispanics as opposed to a mere 10% stops of whites.
While there are surely many New Yorkers who did not have personal negative experiences with the NYC implementation of stop and frisk, anecdotes like that are mostly irrelevant given the trend shown by broader and larger statistics. And those statistics clearly show a trend of racial profiling and needless violation of civil liberties. By no means can targeting blacks and hispanics in 83% of stops be justified when stops of whites results in seizing both weapons and contraband at higher rates and they only make up 10% of all stops.


I picked this example because it is an easy one to explain how a tiny number of anecdotes to support a view are largely worthless when discussing a broader issue such as systemic racism.

 

[ninjahood]

Obama did this for 8 years

lets not play coy....



it was about as partisan as it is now 8 years ago in reverse.

 

[duba169]

Yup that’s a part of some of the viewpoints on one side that I don’t agree with.

There are view points on the other side that lack accountability that i don’t agree with also.

To be honest, I’m exhausted from the topic as I’ve said all my opinions yesterday but in closing their has to be compromise on both sides. And Kanye about to drop a classic album

I can respect that and like many others I wish there were more political parties cause we all have tons of micro priorities but are only given two options. And to be honest I don’t think we’ll have compromise on BLM stuff. Just based off the history of the civil rights movement in this nation that stuff will always be fought against at the time and then years later everyone will pretend they were with it (check MLK approval pre and post death). “Every era of racial progress engenders a racist backlash”-https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/03/opinion/donald-trump-and-reconstruction-era-politics.html

 

[bigrockford]

I think what's being suggested is that your worldview is incomplete. If you acknowledge that White privilege exists, it's not necessary to suggest that a White person's experiences are dishonest or irrelevant if they don't think they've ever experienced White privilege. White privilege is presented as the default or normative experience in America. We all know how the public institutions are intended to work. We all know how the police are supposed to interact with citizens, for example. If your experiences match the way things are supposed to be, why would that feel like privilege? If you're hired or given a loan, you won't be told that it's because of your race. You'll be told, or you'll assume, that you earned it. Privilege would be as conspicuous to you as the presence of water to a fish. Only in its absence would you notice it.

If we want to better understand society, we need to view it from as many different perspectives as possible. We can't understand society as a whole from any one perspective or vantage point. The goal, then, is to synthesize and make sense of the varied ways in which we all experience society.

It's like the parable of the blind men and the elephant.

If you've never experienced racism, that doesn't invalidate the experiences of those who have.

To put it more bluntly, in this case it's a bit like saying, "You must be imagining things. I've been kissing this elephant's backside my whole life and I've never seen anyone gored by a tusk." You wouldn't, from where you're standing.


You're saying that discrimination can't happen because it's illegal. All crimes are illegal. Does crime not exist?

If you made even the most basic effort to research incidences of employment discrimination, you could find more than one example. It's the epitome of privilege to sit back and say, "it's your responsibility to convince me of this discrimination of which you speak!"

If you truly value education, if you believe in holding informed viewpoints, it's incumbent upon you to make the effort. Employers can conjure up all manner of justifications to mask discriminatory behavior. "Wasn't a culture fit." "Had a bad attitude." A person need not be explicitly motivated by prejudice to behave in discriminatory ways. Subconscious biases are more than sufficient.

Nobody knows everything. I couldn't tell you the first thing about rugby, but I don't pretend otherwise and I have no reason to criticize a rugby player for their performance in a sport I couldn't care less about.

You're judging people based on uninformed assumptions regarding a subject you've made no serious effort to understand. It's ridiculous to say "nobody can show me proof that employment discrimination exists" when any computer-literate person could locate such evidence in under thirty seconds using the Internet.

https://www1.eeoc.gov//eeoc/initiatives/e-race/caselist.cfm?renderforprint=1



It seems you don't understand the distinction between relative and absolute percentages. It's perfectly reasonable to think, "of course more White people in America use drugs, because there are more White people in general." Black Americans make up about 12.7% of the population, an 12.5% of drug users, yet 29% of those arrested and 33% of those imprisoned for drug offenses are Black: http://www.naacp.org/criminal-justice-fact-sheet/

The 33% statistic you're referring to is a relative statistic. Think of a population survey group like a roulette wheel. On a typical roulette wheel, 47.36% of spaces are black and 47.36% of spaces are red. Even and odd numbers are equally distributed between red and black. If, instead, numbers were randomly assigned colors, there could be more of one color than another, and one color could have more even numbered spaces than odd numbered spaces.

Let's say that there are 12 black spaces and 24 red spaces. Two thirds of the black spaces are even-numbered. That means 8 black spaces would be evenly numbered and 10 red spaces would be evenly numbered. In our sample, then, 2:3 black spaces are even-numbered compared to 5:12 red spaces. A black space selected at random would thus be statistically more likely to be even-numbered than a red space, even though there are more red spaces than black spaces, and more evenly-numbered red spaces than evenly-numbered black spaces.


For a start, you're relying on anecdotal evidence - and anecdotal evidence that does not disprove in any way the presence of systemic racism, unless it were argued that no Black person, anywhere, ever, has succeeded by any measure in a racist society.

We know that wealth is unequally distributed in this society. https://www.forbes.com/sites/briant...americas-most-pressing-epidemic/#283185b17a48

Michael Jordan is a billionaire, yet since Michael Jordan began playing college basketball, the wealth of the median Black household declined by 75%. That's not ancient history. That's not slavery. That's 1983-2013. Over that same span, median White household wealth increased by 14%.

It's also essential to acknowledge that affluent people of color experience racism, too. If your advice to Black Americans is "pull up your pants, get an education, and get a good job," one would think that Dr. Henry Louis Gates would qualify. Yet, in 2009, Dr. Gates was arrested after a White neighbor accused him of breaking into his own home. So much for "respectability politics."


You're attempting to trivialize racism by comparing it to your brother's height advantage. I've never heard of anyone being lynched for dating someone of a different height.

Second, as has been pointed out to you, I would wager that the vast majority of those you're telling to "stop making excuses" have jobs and college degrees. Dikembe Mutombo often says, "When you take the elevator to the top, please remember to send it back down so someone else might use it." They spent most of their day working. You, by your own admission, spent the day walking on the beach.

While everyone deserves time off, it seems an ill moment to accuse others of laziness. For all you know, many of the people you're insulting have worked harder and generated a larger share of their own wealth than you have for yours. Meanwhile, you act as though they're suggesting that there's no point in trying to work hard because racism exists. As far as I'm aware, not a single person here has made that claim. Again, it's a strawman.

I think you'd find that most decent people would like to leave the world better than they found it. That's a virtue, not a sign of indolence.

Everyone here who gives a damn about racism and social inequality is striving to be the best they can be individually while simultaneously demonstrating concern for this society's most grievous injustices.

Can you honestly say the same when you've yet to perform even the most basic research on the matter?

If your interest in having this conversation represents a first step towards bettering yourself on that front, great, but, in the interest of personal responsibility, shouldn't you be the one making the effort to research it, rather than asking the rest of the community to lay all the evidence at your feet?


You weren't the only one who received a warning or had their post deleted. We want everyone to treat each other with respect. Posts containing insults, personal attacks, and profanity are against the rules.

I wish enforcement of these rules could be perfect, but we have a small team and we can't possibly read every single post added to the forums each day. We rely on our fellow community members to help us by reporting the violations they encounter. Some users report posts only when they are personally upset by them, which can project their inconsistencies on the staff. Please know that's not our intention. We do the best we can to be as evenhanded as possible given the resources available to us.

If you encounter a rule violation, you're encouraged to use the report link to bring it to the staff's attention.

The Wizards' perennial failures are best discussed in the Sports & Training forum.

While I understand that many people here would rather discuss Kanye West's latest plea for attention directly, a serious discussion of systemic racism is at least peripheral to his proclaimed support for Donald Trump and thus relates to the topic. The latest NBA playoff results are not.

I’m doing the best I can with my phone.
Elephant example: No my point of view is not that I’ve been kissing the backside. My point of view is saying if you play by the tusks don’t be mad when you catch them. Have you ever been called a name that’s not true? Real racism does exist and no one is denying that but to call every misfortune you encounter racism is just absurd.

http://www.everyjoe.com/2016/02/04/lifestyle/thats-not-racist-progressives-everything-racism/

Your examples of “Wasn’t a culture fit” or “Had a bad attitude” are real examples of why some people should be let go! Are you saying that every time these reasons come up they are just making something up to keep the black man down? Sometime black people aren’t a culture fit.

Your roulette wheel example. Yeah say what you want. But once again you talking about lazy people doing easy work. And by that I mean detectives and officers. What’s easier to spot. A drug dealer in the projects where most people don’t have money to blow on a nice car? Or a drug dealer in the suburbs where everybody has a nice car? I’m not giving excuses, just my thought process on it. I’m not saying there isn’t descrimination.

Yes we know wealth isn’t “distributed” equally. But let’s not pretend that it doesn’t involve personal circumstances, decisions, career choices, and performance more than just skin color.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_wage_gap_in_the_United_States

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin...ck-workers-earn-73-what-their-white-counterp/

I’m not “trivializing” racism by comparing it to my brothers height. I’m just saying life isn’t fair and it never will be. If racism were a big problem, which I don’t believe it is, then you wouldn’t see black people doing well at all. And no one is being lynched anymore dude. To bring that up like it’s relevant is just silly IMO.

I’m not accusing anyone here in particular of being lazy but I would go as far as to assume that some of them are. The elevator that I took up? As you may have noticed I’m not the most articulate, or educated person. I learn what I can here and there and make the most of it. The “Elevator” I rode up on is not a special elevator. It’s the same one offered to every other American citizen looking to hop on.
I’m not saying no one shouldn’t try because the system is rigged and racism is a problem. I’m saying that if your saying “Racism that’s why” then your making excuses and telling people they are victims.

Look at all of this data you posted. Any easy google search as you pointed out right? This is all well known data by everyone, blacks and whites alike. Correct? How hard is it to find data that even marginally goes against some of this stuff? Go to google and type in any of these subjects and look at how many articles pop up in favor or racism, or inequality. All this well known information and yet somehow everywhere it’s still a problem. Just doesn’t seem logical to me.

Yes there are real victims. Real racial problems like the ones detailed in the Forbes link you posted. But some people are riding this racism wave when it does not apply to them or their situation. The actual lazy people who try for one day, or try for one job, get cut from one team and give up. And then scream from the mountains “Racism!”.

Everyone keeps saying “anecdotal”. Anecdotal is where you catch the problem. Obviously pointing to large surveys isn’t helping anything because we have that evidence right? But if Jerome says “I think they fired me because I was black”. Then shouldn’t that be the time to address the issue with the company?

An employee at Starbucks mad a bad decision one day. Because of this the entire franchise of Starbucks is on trial for black people for being racist. How does this even make sense?

 

[greenbean]

Cant lie I like the album cover and potential album name "Love Everybody"

 

[bigrockford]

Obama did this for 8 years and then they chose Trump as their candidate. Also define what you see the opposing view points I’d be curious. To me, their viewpoint of a country gone astray because immigrants stole white peoples jobs and blacks won’t stop complaining even though they are just inherently lazy/criminal is something I just can’t reason with.

So here in Miami I’m see American chains like Subways and Walmart’s that have no English speaking employees. They are not taking “white peoples jobs”, they are taking jobs from other minorities born here as well as teenagers who need to learn the value of working at a young age.
Whoever said blacks are inherently lazy/criminal is wrong for that.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Thread needs more unity

Neither view point wants to meet in the middle which is the issue in America. “Us vs them”

You can't expect people to find middle ground with bad ideas and ********

 

[duba169]

So here in Miami I’m see American chains like Subways and Walmart’s that have no English speaking employees. They are not taking “white peoples jobs”, they are taking jobs from other minorities born here as well as teenagers who need to learn the value of working at a young age.
Whoever said blacks are inherently lazy/criminal is wrong for that.

There’s a reason the entire trump campaign focuses on **** like coal miners vs say retail which is also being crushed. I bet you’re smart enough to know the racial make up of those sectors. Also you going on the ignore list, I have zero interest in giving you any time.

 

[tokes99]

here's all i want to know:

besides 'ye declaring his like of the character (or caricature) of 45 and his appreciation of the a way a black conservative woman thinks, has mr west articulated, coherently, any of their ideology that he is in agreement with?

 

[ninjahood]

they are taking jobs from other minorities born here as well as teenagers who need to learn the value of working at a young age

that's a misnomer.

no one is stopping anyone from getting work, if Pablo got a job is cuz he worked for it, not cuz he took it from Brad or Tyrone.