***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[RustyShackleford]

I have said it for years, on multiple subjects and and I will say it again

People that think that ending the two party systems is some magic bullet to fix what they feel is wrong about the political system are deluding themselves

The US system just forces coalition to form preselection instead of afterwards

It causes more polarization but it makes the coalition more salient to voters.

It is more about people wanting to feel good about their vote mainly.

 

[RustyShackleford]

And taking a **** at Kamala Harris just seems ****ing weird here.

She probably has zero say on the policy choices taking place

 

[mplsdunk]

Polarization is an understatement these days.

It’s become people’s whole identity.

 

[moe200069]

And taking a **** at Kamala Harris just seems ****ing weird here.

She probably has zero say on the policy choices taking place

we can’t hold elected leaders accountable for them coming out and actively voicing support for genocidal regimes? multiple times she’s condoned the bombing of gaza couched in “israel has a right to self defense.” as have so many party leaders on both sides. i get that this is the role a vice president might have to play for the purposes of appealing to donors, and at the same time, she’s done this since she was a senator in CA

 

[moe200069]

It causes more polarization but it makes the coalition more salient to voters.

It is more about people wanting to feel good about their vote mainly.

felt great voting for joe/kamala in 2020. not feeling great about it now. is what it is.

the two party system is a fixture and isn’t going anywhere. but until the DNC is willing to move from being centrist, i’m just circling a bubble for the apparent lesser of evils.

 

[RustyShackleford]

we can’t hold elected leaders accountable for them coming out and actively voicing support for genocidal regimes? multiple times she’s condoned the bombing of gaza couched in “israel has a right to self defense.” as have so many party leaders on both sides. i get that this is the role a vice president might have to play for the purposes of appealing to donors, and at the same time, she’s done this since she was a senator in CA

You said it yourself, she is the VP. She is not going to say something to undermine the President's position.

Secondly, I think Kamala Harris directly supports genocide in the manner people are making it out to be. Israel is an American ally, she is the VP, with the ****ty person running Israel, and Hamas gave him the pretext to go nuts. The thing is in geopolitics when you ally as a ****ty leader that doesn't matter much in situations like this.

The Israel aid money hasn't come through yet and Bibi is still bombing away, it may never come but he won't stop.

I think the US should be calling for a ceasefire, and stop the bombing, because I want less loss of innocent life.

But I also know that even if someone more reasonable and less racist was in charge over in Israel, why they would probably still continue bombing anyway. This situation working in Hamas' favor no matter what.

-At best you are upset at her for what, being Pro-Isarel? Something most Americans are, most liberals are, and probably most Democrats are. I disagree with a lot of the aspects of the position but I don't see Harris as some outlier.

At worst, it is ****ty because it is laying blame for the actions of white men in power at the foot of a black woman just because you don't like the words coming out of her mouth. Words you expected anyway, and words that align with most Americans.

 

[mplsdunk]

why do we have to continue being allies with Israel to burn bridges with everyone else? tradition?

it's a joke, we look like a joke. try to parade around like we are on some moral high ground in the world and back a terrorist.

 

[heelsandeers]

An Israel with no accountability to the US is not a better actor with respect to Gaza

Biden telling Bibi no more bombing of Gaza if you want to remain friends isn't going to move the needle for Israel at all

If anything it makes Israel even more rapacious and the US loses the influence it does have

From my perspective there's nothing the US can do short term which is frustrating. Longer term BDS is probably the best way to hold Israel responsible

 

[RustyShackleford]

felt great voting for joe/kamala in 2020. not feeling great about it now. is what it is.

My guess is you probably felt good voting against Trump. Negative partisanship is a stronger motivator for voters.

It was no secret Biden was very pro-Israel, I mean the Obama years alone made that obvious, and you knew what Harris was about.

So now, you are upset they turned out to be the people you knew they were?

the two party system is a fixture and isn’t going anywhere. but until the DNC is willing to move from being centrist, i’m just circling a bubble for the apparent lesser of evils.

The Democratic Party is not a centrist party. They have been moving left since Obama's first term.

They are firmly a left-wing party relative to the rest of the world

There is a whole genre of political writing from centrists criticizing them for that move.

They are more centrist on certain issues, and of course, more progressive people have an issue with them on this one. Which is fair.

It is not the parties themselves, it is the political/electoral systems. Something more political parties won't solve (just make worse). And on the flip side, a more democratic electoral system would probably not deliver a consensus on this issue you would like.

 

[RustyShackleford]

An Israel with no accountability to the US is not a better actor with respect to Gaza

Biden telling Bibi no more bombing of Gaza if you want to remain friends isn't going to move the needle for Israel at all

If anything it makes Israel even more rapacious and the US loses the influence it does have

From my perspective there's nothing the US can do short term which is frustrating. Longer term BDS is probably the best way to hold Israel responsible

I don't even think that is workable.

Even if there was a lasting political coalition in the US to pull something like that off, the optics of it are gonna make the US look horrible to the rest of the world.

 

[mplsdunk]

just stop funding them through Leahy law.

it's against the law to fund countries committing war crimes and violating human rights.

 

[RustyShackleford]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/28/politics/pence-suspends-white-house-bid

Pence suspends campaign for president
​

CNN —
Former Vice President Mike Pence has suspended his campaign for president amid lagging poll numbers and financial challenges.
He announced the suspension while speaking at the Republican Jewish Coalition’s annual conference in Las Vegas on Saturday.
Pence’s theory of his candidacy was simple – he broke from then-President Donald Trump on January 6, 2021, and refocused on the core conservative principles that founded the modern Republican Party with Ronald Reagan, his political beacon.

Pence returned to that idea throughout his White House bid, from campaign signs intentionally harkening back to Reagan’s 1984 campaign to speeches urging his party to turn away from populism.
His exit from the 2024 race shows today’s GOP has long left that kind of conservatism he represents, reshaped by Trump, who continues to be the dominant candidate in the race, despite his legal troubles.
Pence, who was Indiana governor and a US congressman before being vice president, announced his campaign in early June. He chose to launch his campaign in Iowa, rather than his home state of Indiana, an indication of how much importance he was placing on the early voting state.

He attempted to visit all of Iowa’s 99 counties, focusing on face-to-face interactions in intimate settings. The Midwestern native leaned on his faith and courted fellow conservative evangelicals, a crucial voting bloc in the state.

Pence has decided to stop wasting people's time

 

[Nike Jordan]

kamala has used her “i grew up in the bay area around zionists” story to be a bootlicker for israel for years now. she pulls up to AIPAC conferences like it’s her family reunion. it comes of no surprise that her and joe are handling the war on gaza the way they are.

Her husband is Jewish.

 

[rexanglorum]

I don’t think Biden will lose reelection, and if he does lose it’ll not be due to this current conflict.

However, if this conflict escalates and someone becomes the dominant issue in 2024, I think it would be unfavorable to Biden. On this issue both major parties are pretty much the same.

On a host of other issues, the Biden administration has created real separation from the GOP. That allows negative polarization to be effective. But on the issue of Gaza, it’s a lot more difficult to use negative polarization when we know that Donald Trump would use similar rhetoric and would ultimately give Israel similar levels of backing.

 

[moe200069]

You said it yourself, she is the VP. She is not going to say something to undermine the President's position.

Secondly, I think Kamala Harris directly supports genocide in the manner people are making it out to be. Israel is an American ally, she is the VP, with the ****ty person running Israel, and Hamas gave him the pretext to go nuts. The thing is in geopolitics when you ally as a ****ty leader that doesn't matter much in situations like this.

The Israel aid money hasn't come through yet and Bibi is still bombing away, it may never come but he won't stop.

I think the US should be calling for a ceasefire, and stop the bombing, because I want less loss of innocent life.

But I also know that even if someone more reasonable and less racist was in charge over in Israel, why they would probably still continue bombing anyway. This situation working in Hamas' favor no matter what.

-At best you are upset at her for what, being Pro-Isarel? Something most Americans are, most liberals are, and probably most Democrats are. I disagree with a lot of the aspects of the position but I don't see Harris as some outlier.

At worst, it is ****ty because it is laying blame for the actions of white men in power at the foot of a black woman just because you don't like the words coming out of her mouth. Words you expected anyway, and words that align with most Americans.

kamala is just as complicit as propagating the US war machine as any other white man in political office. she holds the second highest seat in the country. i’m sure her identities as a black and indian* woman force her to be more measured and careful with her words compared to her white male peers, but just because she’s pro-israel doesn’t mean she or any other politician is required to condone Bibi’s actions. she is not powerless. you can critique a leader and condemn their actions while expressing support for the people of that country. what’s the purpose of diplomacy if you let your ally commit international war crimes with money you’ve printed without any reprimand?

 

[jpzx]

 

[Benny Hinn]

 

[RustyShackleford]

kamala is just as complicit as propagating the US war machine as any other white man in political office.

Dude really?

Joe Biden, a white man, is the Commander-in-Chief.

I think that puts him ahead of Harris

she holds the second highest seat in the country.

She is next in line for the presidency if the president can't do the job. She is not the 2nd most powerful person in the country/government.

Most of her political power is being the tie-breaking vote in the Senate.

That is the political reality.

i’m sure her identities as a black and indian* woman force her to be more measured and careful with her words compared to her white male peers,

The fact she is black and Indian makes people come down harder on her.

but just because she’s pro-israel doesn’t mean she or any other politician is required to condone Bibi’s actions.

I agree

But I don't get why she is getting singled out

She is just repeating US's stance on the situation. Good or bad.

she is not powerless. you can critique a leader and condemn their actions while expressing support for the people of that country.

What real power does she have to do anything tangible?

Don't just repeat she is VP, beyond words what do you think she should be doing?

what’s the purpose of diplomacy if you let your ally commit international war crimes with money you’ve printed without any reprimand?

You can think America's stance is morally wrong, and I would agree, but geopolitics isn't just that simple.

Israel just won't be an ally anymore.

Some people think the US can make Bibi do whatever they please, but I think those people are wrong.

 

[RustyShackleford]

 

[mplsdunk]

Can’t let ford go back to making money by themselves

 

[IATT]

 

[IATT]

 

[jpzx]

…. then call it by name.

 

[dmbrhs]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/28/politics/pence-suspends-white-house-bid

Pence has decided to stop wasting people's time

Where's Ronnie at? Feel like I haven't seen his name in awhile?

 

[jpzx]

You know whose name and status I haven’t heard of in a while? Tim Kaine