The Official NBA Collective Bargaining Thread vol Phased in Hard Cap

[pmatic]

How "small market" owners took control

A couple of days before the start of training camp in 2006, David Stern received an uncomfortable letter at the NBA’s New York offices.

Eight owners signed a petition that demanded Stern address the small market/big market financial disparity they felt was a serious and growing problem. Obviously, they didn’t need to write him a letter like he was their local representative in Congress; he works for them. They did so to make a symbolic point and then released the letter to some media outlets to make sure the issue became public.

It read: “We are asking you to embrace this issue because the hard truth is that our current economic system works only for larger-market teams and a few teams that have extraordinary success on the court and for the latter group of teams, only when they experience extraordinary success. The rest of us are looking at significant and unacceptable annual financial losses."

The authors of the letter were Paul Allen of Portland, Herb Simon on Indiana, Bob Johnson of Charlotte, George Shinn of New Orleans, Larry Miller of Utah, Michael Heisley of Memphis, Glen Taylor of Minnesota and Herb Kohl of Milwaukee.

Johnson and Shinn have since sold their teams and Miller has passed away, giving way to his son, Greg. But the situations in those markets haven’t changed.

In essence, that letter is the root of the current lockout. And, it is turning out, perhaps a core reason the owners can’t make a deal with the players after more than two years of negotiations.

Multiple league sources have emphatically told ESPN.com in the past several days that the sticking points with the players’ union do not solely break down market-size lines and that there’s unity among the owners on the need to win significant economic concessions from the players.

But there seems to be a difference between unity and harmony.

TrueHoop’s Henry Abbott reported Tuesday that the owners were holding a hastily-scheduled meeting in New York to further address revenue sharing issues. It comes on the heels of an owners’ meeting last week where enhanced revenue sharing was discussed -- a conversation that has been going on for nearly as long as talks with the players -- but no plan was agreed to. Stern has promised a new system that will at least triple the money being shared by teams. But so far that has just been a promise, as no plan is in place.

The NBA’s last collective bargaining agreement was ratified in 2005 and included an increased piece of the pie for the players in the form of a jump to 57 percent of basketball-related revenue. Just a year later, those eight teams that drafted the ’06 letter were already complaining openly to Stern that it wasn’t working for them.

In his podcast with Bill Simmons on Monday, union president Billy Hunter re-told a story about meeting with Stern during the 2007 NBA Finals in Cleveland, nine months after Stern received that letter. At the time, Hunter said, Stern talked about the need to roll back the players’ share and revealed his owners were already talking about locking out the union in 2011 if their demands for givebacks weren’t agreed to.

That was two years before an economic crisis slammed the country and further hammered the bottom lines. Since then, the number of allies for the eight owners who wrote the letter has only increased, and it has shaped the dynamic in both talks with the union and with big-market owners.

Robert Sarver of Phoenix and Dan Gilbert of Cleveland didn’t sign the letter in ’06, but they are now two of the biggest advocates for change in both revenue sharing and reducing player compensation. The Maloof family that owns the Kings was coming off six consecutive winning seasons and was used to selling every seat when the letter was authored. Now, they are in dire financial straits and are certainly looking for reform. In addition to the Bobcats and Hornets changing hands, the Wizards, Warriors, 76ers, Pistons and Hawks have also been sold in the past two years to groups who are expecting a new CBA to be more favorable to owners than the previous one. The Nets were also sold last season, but new owner Mikhail Prokhorov is not believed to be among those clamoring for change.

Then look what has happened to the big-market teams. At the time of the last CBA, the Knicks, Celtics and Bulls were all experiencing some sort of down cycle. Even the Lakers were struggling, missing the playoffs in 2005 for the first time in 10 years. Now, all of those teams have returned to prominence and their revenues have soared as well, opening up a gulf of disparity in cash.

When the Lakers agreed to a new local television deal worth several billion dollars last winter, it only further united their small-market competition in pressing for a makeover of both the revenue-sharing system and the split with the players.

“That Lakers’ TV deal scared the hell out of everybody,

 

[pmatic]

How "small market" owners took control

A couple of days before the start of training camp in 2006, David Stern received an uncomfortable letter at the NBA’s New York offices.

Eight owners signed a petition that demanded Stern address the small market/big market financial disparity they felt was a serious and growing problem. Obviously, they didn’t need to write him a letter like he was their local representative in Congress; he works for them. They did so to make a symbolic point and then released the letter to some media outlets to make sure the issue became public.

It read: “We are asking you to embrace this issue because the hard truth is that our current economic system works only for larger-market teams and a few teams that have extraordinary success on the court and for the latter group of teams, only when they experience extraordinary success. The rest of us are looking at significant and unacceptable annual financial losses."

The authors of the letter were Paul Allen of Portland, Herb Simon on Indiana, Bob Johnson of Charlotte, George Shinn of New Orleans, Larry Miller of Utah, Michael Heisley of Memphis, Glen Taylor of Minnesota and Herb Kohl of Milwaukee.

Johnson and Shinn have since sold their teams and Miller has passed away, giving way to his son, Greg. But the situations in those markets haven’t changed.

In essence, that letter is the root of the current lockout. And, it is turning out, perhaps a core reason the owners can’t make a deal with the players after more than two years of negotiations.

Multiple league sources have emphatically told ESPN.com in the past several days that the sticking points with the players’ union do not solely break down market-size lines and that there’s unity among the owners on the need to win significant economic concessions from the players.

But there seems to be a difference between unity and harmony.

TrueHoop’s Henry Abbott reported Tuesday that the owners were holding a hastily-scheduled meeting in New York to further address revenue sharing issues. It comes on the heels of an owners’ meeting last week where enhanced revenue sharing was discussed -- a conversation that has been going on for nearly as long as talks with the players -- but no plan was agreed to. Stern has promised a new system that will at least triple the money being shared by teams. But so far that has just been a promise, as no plan is in place.

The NBA’s last collective bargaining agreement was ratified in 2005 and included an increased piece of the pie for the players in the form of a jump to 57 percent of basketball-related revenue. Just a year later, those eight teams that drafted the ’06 letter were already complaining openly to Stern that it wasn’t working for them.

In his podcast with Bill Simmons on Monday, union president Billy Hunter re-told a story about meeting with Stern during the 2007 NBA Finals in Cleveland, nine months after Stern received that letter. At the time, Hunter said, Stern talked about the need to roll back the players’ share and revealed his owners were already talking about locking out the union in 2011 if their demands for givebacks weren’t agreed to.

That was two years before an economic crisis slammed the country and further hammered the bottom lines. Since then, the number of allies for the eight owners who wrote the letter has only increased, and it has shaped the dynamic in both talks with the union and with big-market owners.

Robert Sarver of Phoenix and Dan Gilbert of Cleveland didn’t sign the letter in ’06, but they are now two of the biggest advocates for change in both revenue sharing and reducing player compensation. The Maloof family that owns the Kings was coming off six consecutive winning seasons and was used to selling every seat when the letter was authored. Now, they are in dire financial straits and are certainly looking for reform. In addition to the Bobcats and Hornets changing hands, the Wizards, Warriors, 76ers, Pistons and Hawks have also been sold in the past two years to groups who are expecting a new CBA to be more favorable to owners than the previous one. The Nets were also sold last season, but new owner Mikhail Prokhorov is not believed to be among those clamoring for change.

Then look what has happened to the big-market teams. At the time of the last CBA, the Knicks, Celtics and Bulls were all experiencing some sort of down cycle. Even the Lakers were struggling, missing the playoffs in 2005 for the first time in 10 years. Now, all of those teams have returned to prominence and their revenues have soared as well, opening up a gulf of disparity in cash.

When the Lakers agreed to a new local television deal worth several billion dollars last winter, it only further united their small-market competition in pressing for a makeover of both the revenue-sharing system and the split with the players.

“That Lakers’ TV deal scared the hell out of everybody,

 

[pr0phecy718]

Originally Posted by outkast9984

they might as well cancel the entire season....i dont really want to see a season thats like 50 games...as much i as i love the game a short season wouldnt be enjoyable for me...

what? '99 was fun to me

 

[pr0phecy718]

Originally Posted by outkast9984

they might as well cancel the entire season....i dont really want to see a season thats like 50 games...as much i as i love the game a short season wouldnt be enjoyable for me...

what? '99 was fun to me

 

[humpasaurus rex]

This actually allows me to finish the fall semester strong. Then during winter break I can watch the start of the season.

 

[humpasaurus rex]

This actually allows me to finish the fall semester strong. Then during winter break I can watch the start of the season.

 

[da r entertainment]

Originally Posted by Blazers21NTNP

[h1]Report: NBA talks to resume Wednesday [/h1]Posted Oct 26 2011 12:54AM - Updated Oct 26 2011 1:24AM
NEW YORK (AP) -- Officials from the NBA and players' association will meet Wednesday, less than a week after three days of talks with a federal mediator couldn't produce a deal to end the lockout, a person with knowledge of the plans said.

Talks broke down last Thursday after players said owners insisted they agree to a 50-50 split of revenues before they would further discuss the salary cap system. By not reaching an agreement last week, the NBA will likely be forced to cancel more games to go with the two weeks that were already scrapped.

There was a far nastier tone than usual to the breakdown, with union president Derek Fisher of the Lakers accusing Deputy Commissioner Adam Silver and Spurs owner Peter Holt, chairman of the league's labor relations committee, of lying during their press conference.

But just as they have multiple times this month when they walked away from the table without another meeting scheduled, the sides are getting back at it relatively quickly.

The meeting, first reported by the Daily News of New York, will be small groups from each side, the person told The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because details of the negotiations were to remain private. Commissioner David Stern will take part after he was forced to miss the session last Thursday because of an illness.

Stern said without a deal last week, he feared games could be lost right through Christmas. The sides tried, spending 30 hours together while meeting for three straight days for the first time since the lockout began July 1. They made some progress on minor issues, but continue to be stuck on the two main ones.

Players proposed lowering their guarantee of basketball-related income to 52.5 percent, leaving the sides about $100 million apart annually based on last season's revenues. They are also sparring over the length of contracts and the raises attached to them, along with the penalties teams would face for exceeding the luxury tax level.

The bright side to this news is that no more games have been cancelled, but on the other hand it goes without saying that November is already a wrap and the best we can hope for now is a Dec 1st start

 

[da r entertainment]

Originally Posted by Blazers21NTNP

[h1]Report: NBA talks to resume Wednesday [/h1]Posted Oct 26 2011 12:54AM - Updated Oct 26 2011 1:24AM
NEW YORK (AP) -- Officials from the NBA and players' association will meet Wednesday, less than a week after three days of talks with a federal mediator couldn't produce a deal to end the lockout, a person with knowledge of the plans said.

Talks broke down last Thursday after players said owners insisted they agree to a 50-50 split of revenues before they would further discuss the salary cap system. By not reaching an agreement last week, the NBA will likely be forced to cancel more games to go with the two weeks that were already scrapped.

There was a far nastier tone than usual to the breakdown, with union president Derek Fisher of the Lakers accusing Deputy Commissioner Adam Silver and Spurs owner Peter Holt, chairman of the league's labor relations committee, of lying during their press conference.

But just as they have multiple times this month when they walked away from the table without another meeting scheduled, the sides are getting back at it relatively quickly.

The meeting, first reported by the Daily News of New York, will be small groups from each side, the person told The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because details of the negotiations were to remain private. Commissioner David Stern will take part after he was forced to miss the session last Thursday because of an illness.

Stern said without a deal last week, he feared games could be lost right through Christmas. The sides tried, spending 30 hours together while meeting for three straight days for the first time since the lockout began July 1. They made some progress on minor issues, but continue to be stuck on the two main ones.

Players proposed lowering their guarantee of basketball-related income to 52.5 percent, leaving the sides about $100 million apart annually based on last season's revenues. They are also sparring over the length of contracts and the raises attached to them, along with the penalties teams would face for exceeding the luxury tax level.

The bright side to this news is that no more games have been cancelled, but on the other hand it goes without saying that November is already a wrap and the best we can hope for now is a Dec 1st start

 

[duba169]

Cavs and suns mess up their chance to win and go crying about market size... And people wonder why I'm so pro player. You know what I ain't even pro player, I'm anti extremly wealthy billionaires trying to socialize their losses and demonize people who don't make ##!+ compared to them. They wants guaranteed profits AND a guaranteed championship.

Paul Allen can't easily win a championship so he wants to cry and take his ball home

Talk about how market size has such an advantage even though the Knicks and clippers prove that wrong ten times over. Celtics sucked for decades. Chicago was TRASH before drafting you know who and getting a rigged lottery pick after they sucked again

 

[duba169]

Cavs and suns mess up their chance to win and go crying about market size... And people wonder why I'm so pro player. You know what I ain't even pro player, I'm anti extremly wealthy billionaires trying to socialize their losses and demonize people who don't make ##!+ compared to them. They wants guaranteed profits AND a guaranteed championship.

Paul Allen can't easily win a championship so he wants to cry and take his ball home

Talk about how market size has such an advantage even though the Knicks and clippers prove that wrong ten times over. Celtics sucked for decades. Chicago was TRASH before drafting you know who and getting a rigged lottery pick after they sucked again

 

[CP1708]

Then look what has happened to the big-market teams. At the time of the last CBA, the Knicks, Celtics and Bulls were all experiencing some sort of down cycle. Even the Lakers were struggling, missing the playoffs in 2005 for the first time in 10 years. Now, all of those teams have returned to prominence and their revenues have soared as well, opening up a gulf of disparity in cash.
Well look at that.  Surprise surprise. 

Oh but wait.....

Robert Sarver of Phoenix and Dan Gilbert of Cleveland didn’t sign the letter in ’06, but they are now two of the biggest advocates for change in both revenue sharing and reducing player compensation. The Maloof family that owns the Kings was coming off six consecutive winning seasons and was used to selling every seat when the letter was authored. Now, they are in dire financial straits and are certainly looking for reform
Hmmm, gee, the Suns were good in 06, the Cavs had Lebron, and the Kings had been winning for years, no change needed.........

When the Lakers agreed to a new local television deal worth several billion dollars last winter, it only further united their small-market competition in pressing for a makeover of both the revenue-sharing system and the split with the players.

“That Lakers’ TV deal scared the hell out of everybody,

 

[CP1708]

Then look what has happened to the big-market teams. At the time of the last CBA, the Knicks, Celtics and Bulls were all experiencing some sort of down cycle. Even the Lakers were struggling, missing the playoffs in 2005 for the first time in 10 years. Now, all of those teams have returned to prominence and their revenues have soared as well, opening up a gulf of disparity in cash.
Well look at that.  Surprise surprise. 

Oh but wait.....

Robert Sarver of Phoenix and Dan Gilbert of Cleveland didn’t sign the letter in ’06, but they are now two of the biggest advocates for change in both revenue sharing and reducing player compensation. The Maloof family that owns the Kings was coming off six consecutive winning seasons and was used to selling every seat when the letter was authored. Now, they are in dire financial straits and are certainly looking for reform
Hmmm, gee, the Suns were good in 06, the Cavs had Lebron, and the Kings had been winning for years, no change needed.........

When the Lakers agreed to a new local television deal worth several billion dollars last winter, it only further united their small-market competition in pressing for a makeover of both the revenue-sharing system and the split with the players.

“That Lakers’ TV deal scared the hell out of everybody,

 

[airjordan jb23]

I can deal with a short season (If need be), but cancelling the whole season is the worst case scenario for me. I need SOMETHING to watch, even if its only half the season plus playoffs.

 

[airjordan jb23]

I can deal with a short season (If need be), but cancelling the whole season is the worst case scenario for me. I need SOMETHING to watch, even if its only half the season plus playoffs.

 

[woody2626]

The Hornets didn't "fail" in Charlotte. Nba record for most consecutive sellouts at somewhere in the 300's. That was 24,000 fans a night for 300 nights in a row, in Jordan's prime, chicago couldn't even do that.

The only reason the Hornets were moved and attendance started failing was Shinn's rape case and refusal to sell the team. The city wouldn't support a new arena with him as owner so he hot the league to bail him out.

Bob Johnson did a poor job marketing the bobcats and that +%!#!$# also chose to name the team after himself. Rich Cho and MJ will turn it around

 

[woody2626]

The Hornets didn't "fail" in Charlotte. Nba record for most consecutive sellouts at somewhere in the 300's. That was 24,000 fans a night for 300 nights in a row, in Jordan's prime, chicago couldn't even do that.

The only reason the Hornets were moved and attendance started failing was Shinn's rape case and refusal to sell the team. The city wouldn't support a new arena with him as owner so he hot the league to bail him out.

Bob Johnson did a poor job marketing the bobcats and that +%!#!$# also chose to name the team after himself. Rich Cho and MJ will turn it around

 

[hankmoody]

"They are furious that the NBA's current revenue sharing ($60 million a year) is worth less than half of a league like the NHL ($137 million)."

That's unacceptable.

Plus, the tenor of free agency/player movement has changed. Small market teams have to protect themselves.

 

[hankmoody]

"They are furious that the NBA's current revenue sharing ($60 million a year) is worth less than half of a league like the NHL ($137 million)."

That's unacceptable.

Plus, the tenor of free agency/player movement has changed. Small market teams have to protect themselves.

 

[statis22]

I read over the weekend 2 owners who stand for locking players out were Clay Bennett of OKC & Michael Heisley of Memphis to get out in front of keeping salaries down before they escalate. Kinda makes sense since Memphis has already paid big money for guys & OKC will have to pay down the line to keep their guys.

But all I've heard here was these were the models small markets need to follow when these teams ownership stand strong on locking players out.

So I ask like I have about 5 or 6 times in this thread alone, why is a team like OKC the model to follow?

 

[statis22]

I read over the weekend 2 owners who stand for locking players out were Clay Bennett of OKC & Michael Heisley of Memphis to get out in front of keeping salaries down before they escalate. Kinda makes sense since Memphis has already paid big money for guys & OKC will have to pay down the line to keep their guys.

But all I've heard here was these were the models small markets need to follow when these teams ownership stand strong on locking players out.

So I ask like I have about 5 or 6 times in this thread alone, why is a team like OKC the model to follow?

 

[da r entertainment]

Originally Posted by Statis22

I read over the weekend 2 owners who stand for locking players out were Clay Bennett of OKC & Michael Heisley of Memphis to get out in front of keeping salaries down before they escalate. Kinda makes sense since Memphis has already paid big money for guys & OKC will have to pay down the line to keep their guys.

But all I've heard here was these were the models small markets need to follow when these teams ownership stand strong on locking players out.

So I ask like I have about 5 or 6 times in this thread alone, why is a team like OKC the model to follow?

Of course Heisley wants to complain now especially after that dumb $*# contract he gave Rudy Gay

 

[da r entertainment]

Originally Posted by Statis22

I read over the weekend 2 owners who stand for locking players out were Clay Bennett of OKC & Michael Heisley of Memphis to get out in front of keeping salaries down before they escalate. Kinda makes sense since Memphis has already paid big money for guys & OKC will have to pay down the line to keep their guys.

But all I've heard here was these were the models small markets need to follow when these teams ownership stand strong on locking players out.

So I ask like I have about 5 or 6 times in this thread alone, why is a team like OKC the model to follow?

Of course Heisley wants to complain now especially after that dumb $*# contract he gave Rudy Gay

 

[statis22]

Hindsight is 20/20 but at that time it would have been a bad move to let him walk right?

 

[statis22]

Hindsight is 20/20 but at that time it would have been a bad move to let him walk right?

 

[jmb1523]

He could have signed Gay for cheaper the year before, right?

stupid decisons like that are why we are in a lock out. Just look at my team the hawks.

Horrible drafting ( Marvin Williams)
Horrible trades ( Jordan Crawford & 1st round pick for Captain Kirk)
Horrible management ( giving Bibby and Marvin Williams contracts that they weren't worth)

All that led to them not having any flexibility and having to give JJ 123 mill to just stay relevant.

if Owners and GMs did their job right, all teams can compete. If a guy isnt worth max money, dont pay him that.