The Official NBA Collective Bargaining Thread vol Phased in Hard Cap

[pmatic]

@NazrMohammed A Luxury Tax and teams that pay it can't bid on the services of free agents...Sounds like a hard cap to me. #NBALockout

@King24George Damn MJ.. That's how you feel?

@KlayThompson @King24George U think the 1996 mj would pull this? Straight hypocrite bro

@King24George @KlayThompson man straight hypocrite bro.. He should've been the 1st one behind us smh

@NickSwagyPYoung im not wearin jordans no more cant believe what i just seen and heard from MJ #ElvisDoneLeftTheBuilding and i didnt delete it

 

[pmatic]

@NazrMohammed A Luxury Tax and teams that pay it can't bid on the services of free agents...Sounds like a hard cap to me. #NBALockout

@King24George Damn MJ.. That's how you feel?

@KlayThompson @King24George U think the 1996 mj would pull this? Straight hypocrite bro

@King24George @KlayThompson man straight hypocrite bro.. He should've been the 1st one behind us smh

@NickSwagyPYoung im not wearin jordans no more cant believe what i just seen and heard from MJ #ElvisDoneLeftTheBuilding and i didnt delete it

 

[pmatic]

@NazrMohammed A Luxury Tax and teams that pay it can't bid on the services of free agents...Sounds like a hard cap to me. #NBALockout

@King24George Damn MJ.. That's how you feel?

@KlayThompson @King24George U think the 1996 mj would pull this? Straight hypocrite bro

@King24George @KlayThompson man straight hypocrite bro.. He should've been the 1st one behind us smh

@NickSwagyPYoung im not wearin jordans no more cant believe what i just seen and heard from MJ #ElvisDoneLeftTheBuilding and i didnt delete it

 

[kaycurrency]

Getting my photography on... Feel free to use it.

 

[kaycurrency]

Getting my photography on... Feel free to use it.

 

[kaycurrency]

Getting my photography on... Feel free to use it.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

The players are stupid, I remember the NHL lockout they will regret this, too many of those owners were in the NHL lockout and know that they pretty much just got a blank check from the players. Also the hockey has more better overseas options than the NBA does with the Swedish Elite League and KHL...this is dumb.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

The players are stupid, I remember the NHL lockout they will regret this, too many of those owners were in the NHL lockout and know that they pretty much just got a blank check from the players. Also the hockey has more better overseas options than the NBA does with the Swedish Elite League and KHL...this is dumb.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

The players are stupid, I remember the NHL lockout they will regret this, too many of those owners were in the NHL lockout and know that they pretty much just got a blank check from the players. Also the hockey has more better overseas options than the NBA does with the Swedish Elite League and KHL...this is dumb.

 

[al3xis]

Just a good thing for MJ that he never played in the social-media age. Guy is an $@+ hole.

Doubt he wants to teach anyone a lesson, he's about his bottom line.

 

[al3xis]

Just a good thing for MJ that he never played in the social-media age. Guy is an $@+ hole.

Doubt he wants to teach anyone a lesson, he's about his bottom line.

 

[al3xis]

Just a good thing for MJ that he never played in the social-media age. Guy is an $@+ hole.

Doubt he wants to teach anyone a lesson, he's about his bottom line.

 

[aepps20]

Rational thinking has totally gone out of the window at this point.  If you lose the season the league will probably never be the same and everyone's share gets reduced. 

There are viable solutions that benefit both sides but no one seems to want to explore those options.  It's crazy that I've finally come to the conclusion that NTers could come up with a better solution than millionaires, billionaires and their high priced lawyers and accountants. 

  The problem I see is a lack of trust on both sides and leaders with good intentions that have virtually no power to effectuate change.  Stern and Hunter are two very smart people, so does anyone really think after 99 they really wanted to do this mess again?  Stern and Hunter see the damage this lockout has and will do to the league but they have virtually no authority to make a deal and are essentially along for the ride.  Everyone seems to agree that a BRI around 51%, an agreement on system issues with increased revenue sharing is the best deal for everyone, but it seems that both sides see these issues as mutually exclusive rather than part of a larger plan.  It seems that the only way the owners will agree to a 50-51% BRI is if the system issues are very punitive to high spending teams.  I'm sure if the BRI was 47% the owners would agree to the system changes.  I remember reading the article a few pages back about how even if Stern could sell the 50-50 BRI split, there is no guarantee he could get the support on the system changes necessary to make the split work.

 

[aepps20]

Rational thinking has totally gone out of the window at this point.  If you lose the season the league will probably never be the same and everyone's share gets reduced. 

There are viable solutions that benefit both sides but no one seems to want to explore those options.  It's crazy that I've finally come to the conclusion that NTers could come up with a better solution than millionaires, billionaires and their high priced lawyers and accountants. 

  The problem I see is a lack of trust on both sides and leaders with good intentions that have virtually no power to effectuate change.  Stern and Hunter are two very smart people, so does anyone really think after 99 they really wanted to do this mess again?  Stern and Hunter see the damage this lockout has and will do to the league but they have virtually no authority to make a deal and are essentially along for the ride.  Everyone seems to agree that a BRI around 51%, an agreement on system issues with increased revenue sharing is the best deal for everyone, but it seems that both sides see these issues as mutually exclusive rather than part of a larger plan.  It seems that the only way the owners will agree to a 50-51% BRI is if the system issues are very punitive to high spending teams.  I'm sure if the BRI was 47% the owners would agree to the system changes.  I remember reading the article a few pages back about how even if Stern could sell the 50-50 BRI split, there is no guarantee he could get the support on the system changes necessary to make the split work.

 

[qwerty330]

this is getting way ridiculous now...i wont lie and say i know much about what both sides are arguing over. I dont even really know what a hard cap is, but it seems like millionaires and bilionaires are fighting over just a few million throughout the next few years. while most people who work these stadiums making 40k a year or so are losing out on their main source of income. and they obviously dont care about the fans who actually provide all this money they are arguing over. someone should start a petition online for fans making our own ultimatum. Have a deal by this week or we won't go to the games and both sides lose (obviously this would never work but just saying)

 

[qwerty330]

this is getting way ridiculous now...i wont lie and say i know much about what both sides are arguing over. I dont even really know what a hard cap is, but it seems like millionaires and bilionaires are fighting over just a few million throughout the next few years. while most people who work these stadiums making 40k a year or so are losing out on their main source of income. and they obviously dont care about the fans who actually provide all this money they are arguing over. someone should start a petition online for fans making our own ultimatum. Have a deal by this week or we won't go to the games and both sides lose (obviously this would never work but just saying)

 

[da r entertainment]

Originally Posted by PMatic

Originally Posted by Burns1923

How many votes do the players need to decertify again?

I think most people see the sense in accepting 50-50 right now but it's not like that's the one thing keeping a deal at bay. There's other stuff the players are ticked about.

I can see Fish and co rallying the votes to decertify. The players seem like they're on that rather-die-standing-than-live-on-my-knees pride. Looking to prove a point. They don't want the owners "controlling" their livelihoods anymore.

Was reading about what the potential decert process would be. The months each step would take...

This would bleed into 2012-13 season easily if not beyond.

30%.

And I don't even see that 30% happening even though this is really all the players have left.  Even if they decert do they really think that's going to get this an even better deal at this point.  I understand the players and the owners want what they want, but at this time it's time to swallow pride and take the deal on the table and begin the negotiations for the next CBA much sooner.  I blame both the players and the owners for this madness.  If the players really wanted to decert that should've been done in July.  Now their hands are tied & they seriously better weigh their options long and hard.

 

[da r entertainment]

Originally Posted by PMatic

Originally Posted by Burns1923

How many votes do the players need to decertify again?

I think most people see the sense in accepting 50-50 right now but it's not like that's the one thing keeping a deal at bay. There's other stuff the players are ticked about.

I can see Fish and co rallying the votes to decertify. The players seem like they're on that rather-die-standing-than-live-on-my-knees pride. Looking to prove a point. They don't want the owners "controlling" their livelihoods anymore.

Was reading about what the potential decert process would be. The months each step would take...

This would bleed into 2012-13 season easily if not beyond.

30%.

And I don't even see that 30% happening even though this is really all the players have left.  Even if they decert do they really think that's going to get this an even better deal at this point.  I understand the players and the owners want what they want, but at this time it's time to swallow pride and take the deal on the table and begin the negotiations for the next CBA much sooner.  I blame both the players and the owners for this madness.  If the players really wanted to decert that should've been done in July.  Now their hands are tied & they seriously better weigh their options long and hard.

 

[big j 33]

Originally Posted by Al3xis

Just a good thing for MJ that he never played in the social-media age. Guy is an $@+ hole.

Doubt he wants to teach anyone a lesson, he's about his bottom line.

My feelings exactly.

 

[big j 33]

Originally Posted by Al3xis

Just a good thing for MJ that he never played in the social-media age. Guy is an $@+ hole.

Doubt he wants to teach anyone a lesson, he's about his bottom line.

My feelings exactly.

 

[air freshh 23]

Originally Posted by AirMaxin1

http://msn.foxsports.com/...-selfish-betrayal-110411
[h1]MJ sells out players with hard-line stance[/h1]
Updated Nov 5, 2011 7:57 PM ET

Michael Jeffrey Jordan finally found a cause he can get behind off the court: being an obstacle for any black kid dreaming of matching or exceeding Jordan’s wealth.

Sellout.

And I don’t throw that word around liberally. But there’s no better description for Jordan now that he has reportedly decided to be the hard-line frontman for NBA ownership’s desire to rob NBA players of their fair share of the revenue the league generates.

Sellout.

Now that NBA superstars have decided to fully engage in the lockout negotiations and threaten union decertification, David Stern and ownership have decided to unleash their token minority owner from the house to play hardball. According to The New York Times, Michael Jeffrey Jordan, the greatest player of all time, is the owner most determined to bury the union financially. Jordan allegedly wants current players to take a 10- to 20-point basketball-related-income pay cut.

Sellout.

This is the ultimate betrayal. A league filled mostly with African-American young men who grew up wanting to be like Mike is finally getting to see just who Michael Jordan is. He’s a cheap, stingy, mean-spirited, cut-throat, greedy, uncaring, disloyal slave to his own bottom line.

Nike’s “Air Jordan

 

[air freshh 23]

Originally Posted by AirMaxin1

http://msn.foxsports.com/...-selfish-betrayal-110411
[h1]MJ sells out players with hard-line stance[/h1]
Updated Nov 5, 2011 7:57 PM ET

Michael Jeffrey Jordan finally found a cause he can get behind off the court: being an obstacle for any black kid dreaming of matching or exceeding Jordan’s wealth.

Sellout.

And I don’t throw that word around liberally. But there’s no better description for Jordan now that he has reportedly decided to be the hard-line frontman for NBA ownership’s desire to rob NBA players of their fair share of the revenue the league generates.

Sellout.

Now that NBA superstars have decided to fully engage in the lockout negotiations and threaten union decertification, David Stern and ownership have decided to unleash their token minority owner from the house to play hardball. According to The New York Times, Michael Jeffrey Jordan, the greatest player of all time, is the owner most determined to bury the union financially. Jordan allegedly wants current players to take a 10- to 20-point basketball-related-income pay cut.

Sellout.

This is the ultimate betrayal. A league filled mostly with African-American young men who grew up wanting to be like Mike is finally getting to see just who Michael Jordan is. He’s a cheap, stingy, mean-spirited, cut-throat, greedy, uncaring, disloyal slave to his own bottom line.

Nike’s “Air Jordan

 

[pmatic]

The Big Deal Over BRI

With dour faces, representatives of the NBA and NBPA abruptly ended their meetings last week. Another two weeks of the season were canceled, union leadership was defending itself to its constituents, and there was no real catalyst for shifting the leverage between the two sides. And now the players' nuclear option -- decertification -- is becoming a potential reality. Gloom and doom abounds in the NBA lockout as hope fades for the season.

Or not. I know it sounds overly sanguine, but the sides are making some progress, with meetings resuming Saturday. While some of the major issues remain unresolved, David Stern and Billy Hunter are moving toward common ground.

There's been some forward movement on two of the three integral issues in this long-running negotiation: how to divide (1) income between the teams (through revenue sharing) and (2) talent between the teams (through the salary cap). As for the third issue, how to divide revenue between owners and players, referred to as basketball related income (BRI), there is still work to do.

The BRI split

Compared to revenue sharing and the cap, this is a simpler concept to understand -- but it is not without nuance or complexity. Although we hear about a percentage split of 52/48 or 50/50, the key is not the percentage, but rather the percentage of what. BRI is a specific pool of money that takes into account some -- although not all -- of the individual teams' local revenue and the collective national revenue of all teams.

The following are the primary components of BRI:

• Regular-season ticket revenues
• Local broadcast revenue
• National broadcast revenue
• Playoff ticket revenues
• In-arena concessions and merchandise
• 40 percent of signage revenue
• 40 percent of suite revenue
• 50 percent of naming rights revenue

Simply, any revenue-generating activity -- from selling tickets to hot dogs to television rights to video games -- is divided between the players and owners. But it is important to note that only revenue gets shared, not expenses associated with generating revenue. Thus, if owners spend more than they generate on marketing, construction, etc., the players receive a net benefit and the owners receive a loss. Although not unique to professional basketball, it is something owners are intent on revising through a lower share allocated to the players.

A closer look at BRI

The composition of BRI may actually help explain why players are more willing to miss games than many expected. Putting it simply, the BRI pool is not a direct function of how many games are played.

On a pro rata basis, regular-season ticket revenues (as well as those generated by parking, concessions, etc.) vary in direct proportion to the number of games played. Thus, in the event 20 games (or approximately one-quarter of the regular season) were canceled, then regular-season ticket revenue would decrease by 25 percent. That represents a simple 1:1 equation.

But that is not the case for other components in BRI. Playoff revenue -- both from broadcast and ticket sales -- will not change whether the season is 50 games or 82. Local broadcast contracts may be the same or substantially similar even with a reduction in number of games, depending on the specific wording in the contract. Depending on the market and the nature of the deals, the same may be true for sponsorships, arena signage and naming rights revenue.

However, the same cannot be said for game checks, as the players lose one for every regular-season game missed. Owners, though, do not lose income on the same 1:1 scale. So even with the playoff revenue, the lockout is still more costly to the players than to their employers.

Lockout clauses

The primary source of revenue for the league, the network television deals (ESPN, ABC and TNT), have "lockout clauses." As Stern has noted, these clauses have been part of the NBA television contracts since 1987. (These clauses faced litigation in the NFL-NFLPA dispute, with the players gaining a judgment against the league for such clauses, a victory wrapped into the overall settlement of Brady v. NFL.)

These networks pay for the total number of games that are broadcast. If any games are truly lost, then the league has to pay the money back, with interest. Since national broadcasts are back-loaded, with more games broadcast at the end of the season than at the beginning, early-season cancellations don't necessarily affect the league's income.

Indeed, the only components of the BRI pool that are necessarily lowered with a reduced schedule are revenues from tickets, merchandise and concessions from specific game nights canceled. That is significant, but only a part of the total pool.

Trade-off with system issues

Of course, one mantra of every negotiation rings true here: Until everything is agreed to, nothing is agreed to. While the BRI split is certainly a core issue and the one receiving the most attention, it is inextricably linked to "system issues," which influence the operation and structure of contracts, the cap and its exceptions.

In terms of a change from the previous agreement, the owners appear to have already "won" many of these system issues. It has been tentatively agreed to -- perhaps subject to change until the BRI split is worked out -- that the luxury tax will be harsher than before, contract maximum lengths and year-to-year increases will be shorter than before and the mid-level exception will be smaller than before.

However, there can be potential tradeoffs with the BRI split. For instance, perhaps the players can come off their rigid stance of "not a penny below 52 percent" were there a softer luxury tax and/or a higher mid-level exemption and/or greater annual salary increases. Similarly, perhaps the NBA can come off its rigid stance of not allowing luxury-taxed teams to use the mid-level exception and/or reduce its penalties for those repeat luxury-tax offenders in exchange for a better BRI number.

There is also concern on the players' side over how the revenue is divided among the players on a per-team basis. If the system is too restrictive -- be it through a hard cap, an overly-punitive luxury tax, or preventing taxpaying teams from availing themselves of mechanisms like sign-and-trade and the mid-level exception -- the middle class will be effectively eliminated. The players' split of the revenue will go primarily to the stars, the drafted rookies and the minimum-salary guys, leaving everyone else competing for whatever scraps remain.

In the horse-trading that always goes on in the final stages of a multi-issue negotiation such as this, there will be opportunities to "play" with the BRI number.

Emboldening players

The last reported numbers show that league-wide ticket revenue in the 2010-11 season was $1.1 billion, or 29 percent of BRI. Thus, the players are not as impacted by missing games when you consider that the BRI "pie" isn't shrinking by a per-game-missed formula. This may partially explain the players' resolve over a couple of percentage points and their reliance on an economist in many of the meetings.

The truth lies deeper than the simple split. BRI's true composition -- as well as other, non-BRI-related issues -- may allow the players more resolve and unity than we have previously thought. On the other hand, the onus is on Fisher and Hunter to explain this to the players unambiguously.


Link

Edit:

@ESPNSteinLine Sources: Leaders of NBA's decertification movement hope to have requisite 130 signed petitions from players seeking decert VOTE by Tuesday

 

[pmatic]

The Big Deal Over BRI

With dour faces, representatives of the NBA and NBPA abruptly ended their meetings last week. Another two weeks of the season were canceled, union leadership was defending itself to its constituents, and there was no real catalyst for shifting the leverage between the two sides. And now the players' nuclear option -- decertification -- is becoming a potential reality. Gloom and doom abounds in the NBA lockout as hope fades for the season.

Or not. I know it sounds overly sanguine, but the sides are making some progress, with meetings resuming Saturday. While some of the major issues remain unresolved, David Stern and Billy Hunter are moving toward common ground.

There's been some forward movement on two of the three integral issues in this long-running negotiation: how to divide (1) income between the teams (through revenue sharing) and (2) talent between the teams (through the salary cap). As for the third issue, how to divide revenue between owners and players, referred to as basketball related income (BRI), there is still work to do.

The BRI split

Compared to revenue sharing and the cap, this is a simpler concept to understand -- but it is not without nuance or complexity. Although we hear about a percentage split of 52/48 or 50/50, the key is not the percentage, but rather the percentage of what. BRI is a specific pool of money that takes into account some -- although not all -- of the individual teams' local revenue and the collective national revenue of all teams.

The following are the primary components of BRI:

• Regular-season ticket revenues
• Local broadcast revenue
• National broadcast revenue
• Playoff ticket revenues
• In-arena concessions and merchandise
• 40 percent of signage revenue
• 40 percent of suite revenue
• 50 percent of naming rights revenue

Simply, any revenue-generating activity -- from selling tickets to hot dogs to television rights to video games -- is divided between the players and owners. But it is important to note that only revenue gets shared, not expenses associated with generating revenue. Thus, if owners spend more than they generate on marketing, construction, etc., the players receive a net benefit and the owners receive a loss. Although not unique to professional basketball, it is something owners are intent on revising through a lower share allocated to the players.

A closer look at BRI

The composition of BRI may actually help explain why players are more willing to miss games than many expected. Putting it simply, the BRI pool is not a direct function of how many games are played.

On a pro rata basis, regular-season ticket revenues (as well as those generated by parking, concessions, etc.) vary in direct proportion to the number of games played. Thus, in the event 20 games (or approximately one-quarter of the regular season) were canceled, then regular-season ticket revenue would decrease by 25 percent. That represents a simple 1:1 equation.

But that is not the case for other components in BRI. Playoff revenue -- both from broadcast and ticket sales -- will not change whether the season is 50 games or 82. Local broadcast contracts may be the same or substantially similar even with a reduction in number of games, depending on the specific wording in the contract. Depending on the market and the nature of the deals, the same may be true for sponsorships, arena signage and naming rights revenue.

However, the same cannot be said for game checks, as the players lose one for every regular-season game missed. Owners, though, do not lose income on the same 1:1 scale. So even with the playoff revenue, the lockout is still more costly to the players than to their employers.

Lockout clauses

The primary source of revenue for the league, the network television deals (ESPN, ABC and TNT), have "lockout clauses." As Stern has noted, these clauses have been part of the NBA television contracts since 1987. (These clauses faced litigation in the NFL-NFLPA dispute, with the players gaining a judgment against the league for such clauses, a victory wrapped into the overall settlement of Brady v. NFL.)

These networks pay for the total number of games that are broadcast. If any games are truly lost, then the league has to pay the money back, with interest. Since national broadcasts are back-loaded, with more games broadcast at the end of the season than at the beginning, early-season cancellations don't necessarily affect the league's income.

Indeed, the only components of the BRI pool that are necessarily lowered with a reduced schedule are revenues from tickets, merchandise and concessions from specific game nights canceled. That is significant, but only a part of the total pool.

Trade-off with system issues

Of course, one mantra of every negotiation rings true here: Until everything is agreed to, nothing is agreed to. While the BRI split is certainly a core issue and the one receiving the most attention, it is inextricably linked to "system issues," which influence the operation and structure of contracts, the cap and its exceptions.

In terms of a change from the previous agreement, the owners appear to have already "won" many of these system issues. It has been tentatively agreed to -- perhaps subject to change until the BRI split is worked out -- that the luxury tax will be harsher than before, contract maximum lengths and year-to-year increases will be shorter than before and the mid-level exception will be smaller than before.

However, there can be potential tradeoffs with the BRI split. For instance, perhaps the players can come off their rigid stance of "not a penny below 52 percent" were there a softer luxury tax and/or a higher mid-level exemption and/or greater annual salary increases. Similarly, perhaps the NBA can come off its rigid stance of not allowing luxury-taxed teams to use the mid-level exception and/or reduce its penalties for those repeat luxury-tax offenders in exchange for a better BRI number.

There is also concern on the players' side over how the revenue is divided among the players on a per-team basis. If the system is too restrictive -- be it through a hard cap, an overly-punitive luxury tax, or preventing taxpaying teams from availing themselves of mechanisms like sign-and-trade and the mid-level exception -- the middle class will be effectively eliminated. The players' split of the revenue will go primarily to the stars, the drafted rookies and the minimum-salary guys, leaving everyone else competing for whatever scraps remain.

In the horse-trading that always goes on in the final stages of a multi-issue negotiation such as this, there will be opportunities to "play" with the BRI number.

Emboldening players

The last reported numbers show that league-wide ticket revenue in the 2010-11 season was $1.1 billion, or 29 percent of BRI. Thus, the players are not as impacted by missing games when you consider that the BRI "pie" isn't shrinking by a per-game-missed formula. This may partially explain the players' resolve over a couple of percentage points and their reliance on an economist in many of the meetings.

The truth lies deeper than the simple split. BRI's true composition -- as well as other, non-BRI-related issues -- may allow the players more resolve and unity than we have previously thought. On the other hand, the onus is on Fisher and Hunter to explain this to the players unambiguously.


Link

Edit:

@ESPNSteinLine Sources: Leaders of NBA's decertification movement hope to have requisite 130 signed petitions from players seeking decert VOTE by Tuesday

 

[everysingletime]

If the union decerts....