The Official NBA Collective Bargaining Thread vol Phased in Hard Cap

[shoeking2101]

Originally Posted by rck2sactown

Originally Posted by shoeking2101

Well, around two, three summers ago, I got the chance to chop it up with billy hunter at the NBAPA office and this very topic came up.


Not to bring race into this issue, but his words : "Its more than money, its a black vs white thing. You see the people working in this office? All black. When we sit down with the NBA, its all black on one side, all white on the other. Every single time we meet, whether it be all star weekend, the finals, or what have you, he sits up on his high horse and puts out these crazy assertions and demands, and tries to bully us, and coherce us into what they want to do. Well quite frankly, we just aren't having it anymore. After this cba expires, we are preparing for the worst as far as NBA basketball is concerned. We're telling our players to save up, and even our player that are retired, to save up because without no season(s) in the future, we won't be able to get them nearly as many jobs. This will get ugly."

Damn kudos for remembering that quote by heart still 2-3 years later

 Well its not verbatim per say, my assignment when we visited there was to take notes about the NBAPA and I still have the notebook and the things he said

 

[shoeking2101]

Originally Posted by rck2sactown

Originally Posted by shoeking2101

Well, around two, three summers ago, I got the chance to chop it up with billy hunter at the NBAPA office and this very topic came up.


Not to bring race into this issue, but his words : "Its more than money, its a black vs white thing. You see the people working in this office? All black. When we sit down with the NBA, its all black on one side, all white on the other. Every single time we meet, whether it be all star weekend, the finals, or what have you, he sits up on his high horse and puts out these crazy assertions and demands, and tries to bully us, and coherce us into what they want to do. Well quite frankly, we just aren't having it anymore. After this cba expires, we are preparing for the worst as far as NBA basketball is concerned. We're telling our players to save up, and even our player that are retired, to save up because without no season(s) in the future, we won't be able to get them nearly as many jobs. This will get ugly."

Damn kudos for remembering that quote by heart still 2-3 years later

 Well its not verbatim per say, my assignment when we visited there was to take notes about the NBAPA and I still have the notebook and the things he said

 

[Deleted member 38182]

Originally Posted by shoeking2101

Originally Posted by rck2sactown

Originally Posted by shoeking2101

Well, around two, three summers ago, I got the chance to chop it up with billy hunter at the NBAPA office and this very topic came up.


Not to bring race into this issue, but his words : "Its more than money, its a black vs white thing. You see the people working in this office? All black. When we sit down with the NBA, its all black on one side, all white on the other. Every single time we meet, whether it be all star weekend, the finals, or what have you, he sits up on his high horse and puts out these crazy assertions and demands, and tries to bully us, and coherce us into what they want to do. Well quite frankly, we just aren't having it anymore. After this cba expires, we are preparing for the worst as far as NBA basketball is concerned. We're telling our players to save up, and even our player that are retired, to save up because without no season(s) in the future, we won't be able to get them nearly as many jobs. This will get ugly."

Damn kudos for remembering that quote by heart still 2-3 years later

 Well its not verbatim per say, my assignment when we visited there was to take notes about the NBAPA and I still have the notebook and the things he said

Naw man, thats good stuff. Sounded like you took some good notes and whatnot. Kinda surprised Hunter tried to make it into a race thing.

 

[Deleted member 38182]

Originally Posted by shoeking2101

Originally Posted by rck2sactown

Originally Posted by shoeking2101

Well, around two, three summers ago, I got the chance to chop it up with billy hunter at the NBAPA office and this very topic came up.


Not to bring race into this issue, but his words : "Its more than money, its a black vs white thing. You see the people working in this office? All black. When we sit down with the NBA, its all black on one side, all white on the other. Every single time we meet, whether it be all star weekend, the finals, or what have you, he sits up on his high horse and puts out these crazy assertions and demands, and tries to bully us, and coherce us into what they want to do. Well quite frankly, we just aren't having it anymore. After this cba expires, we are preparing for the worst as far as NBA basketball is concerned. We're telling our players to save up, and even our player that are retired, to save up because without no season(s) in the future, we won't be able to get them nearly as many jobs. This will get ugly."

Damn kudos for remembering that quote by heart still 2-3 years later

 Well its not verbatim per say, my assignment when we visited there was to take notes about the NBAPA and I still have the notebook and the things he said

Naw man, thats good stuff. Sounded like you took some good notes and whatnot. Kinda surprised Hunter tried to make it into a race thing.

 

[cosmiccanon]

Lurking RealGM and found a poster's opinion on this

good post.. but for me, if the players were being taken advantage of, I would side with the players.... I am siding with the owners simply because I understand where they are coming from this time.. Look, many of us said the system was broken, people were not happy to see what happened in miami, people were not happy to see guys like Eddy curry take advantage of the system.. So I don't understand why people are upset with the owners for wanting to change a system that is broken.. Basketball will be back guys... But the biggest problem with the NBA is entitlements.. the players get guaranteed deals and for years have had great protected contracts.. these guysare unrealistic and don't want to budge.. but reality is, that the economy has changed the landscape and the way we do business, even for pro franchises.... The owners made a bad deal IMO last CBA and now they want to fix it.. that is their right? I mean have any of you signed a contract you don't like, honor that contract, but after it is done, you want to renegotiate. right? OK... This is the owners League, and only the owners can really fix this mess.. It is their job to fix this mess!!! They are the keepers of the league and must look out for it's longterm benefit.. Willl the players like making less? of course not.. who does... but hey, a lot of people are making less than they did a few years ago.. I am sure a lot of us can attest to that..

Again, this will get fixed. I want to see basketball just as much as anyone, heck I plan my schedule, my extracuriculla activties around Knick games...

I don't know all the details, but if the owners even offered 50% and the players declined, well there really needs to be no season.. I think 50% is ridiculous as is, but if the owners offered it and the players declined.. then all I can say is wow..

 

Stern and the owners are killing it out here. 

 

[cosmiccanon]

Lurking RealGM and found a poster's opinion on this

good post.. but for me, if the players were being taken advantage of, I would side with the players.... I am siding with the owners simply because I understand where they are coming from this time.. Look, many of us said the system was broken, people were not happy to see what happened in miami, people were not happy to see guys like Eddy curry take advantage of the system.. So I don't understand why people are upset with the owners for wanting to change a system that is broken.. Basketball will be back guys... But the biggest problem with the NBA is entitlements.. the players get guaranteed deals and for years have had great protected contracts.. these guysare unrealistic and don't want to budge.. but reality is, that the economy has changed the landscape and the way we do business, even for pro franchises.... The owners made a bad deal IMO last CBA and now they want to fix it.. that is their right? I mean have any of you signed a contract you don't like, honor that contract, but after it is done, you want to renegotiate. right? OK... This is the owners League, and only the owners can really fix this mess.. It is their job to fix this mess!!! They are the keepers of the league and must look out for it's longterm benefit.. Willl the players like making less? of course not.. who does... but hey, a lot of people are making less than they did a few years ago.. I am sure a lot of us can attest to that..

Again, this will get fixed. I want to see basketball just as much as anyone, heck I plan my schedule, my extracuriculla activties around Knick games...

I don't know all the details, but if the owners even offered 50% and the players declined, well there really needs to be no season.. I think 50% is ridiculous as is, but if the owners offered it and the players declined.. then all I can say is wow..

 

Stern and the owners are killing it out here. 

 

[westcoastsfinest]

stern has a lot for the NBA but two lockouts is not a good look.

 

[westcoastsfinest]

stern has a lot for the NBA but two lockouts is not a good look.

 

[lazyj10]

That post from Real GM is ******ed.

I feel dumber having read it.

 

[lazyj10]

That post from Real GM is ******ed.

I feel dumber having read it.

 

[pmatic]

Stern cancels two weeks over labor impasse

Citing an impasse with the players' association over matters that seemed trivial entering the home stretch of negotiations, David Stern announced Monday night the cancellation of regular season games for the second time in his more than a quarter century as commissioner.

Stern canceled the first two weeks of the regular season after more than 13 hours of bargaining over two days with the National Basketball Players Association left the two sides "very, very far apart on virtually all issues."

"I'm sorry to report, particularly for the thousands of people that depend on our industry for their livlihood, that the first two weeks of the season have been canceled," Stern said.

Asked if there was no chance of having an 82-game season, Stern said, "Yes, I think that's right. And every day that goes by, we need to look at further reductions in what's left in the season."

The biggest issue that separated the parties in negotiations that began in earnest with the owners' initial proposal in January 2010 -- the split of revenues -- was not the tipping point that led to the cancellation. It was system issues -- luxury tax, contract length, length of the CBA, annual raises, and the like -- meaning that both sides will miss games over details neither imagined they would.

"I'm convinced this was all just part of the plan," said Billy Hunter, executive director of the National Basketball Players Association.

Indeed, a person involved in the negotiations told CBSSports.com that the cancellation seemed "pre-ordained."

"This could have been solved so easily, with any amount of effort," the person said.

Indeed, the two sides engaged in a flurry of lengthy talks over the past two weeks, culminating with six hours Sunday night and seven hours on Monday -- all dealing with system issues with no sunstantive discussion of the split of basketball-related income. Speaking on the sidewalk outside the Upper East Side hotel where negotiations took place, Stern delivered a laundry list of items that league negotiators found most objectionable about the players' proposals: contract length, length of the CBA, use of exceptions by tax-paying teams, the tax levels and what deputy commissioner Adam Silver described as the "frequency of the tax."

The latter point, according to a union source, apparently was in reference to the owners desire to punish teams that repeatedly spend over new luxury-tax thresholds in order to prevent "runaway teams" in big markets from maintaining an unfair competitive advantage over small-market teams.

Such negotiating points seemed minor heading into the final push to save regular season games, given that last Tuesday, the two sides had shaved about $1.6 billion off the economic gap that separated them. Few observers and some participants in the talks expected games to be lost over technical deal points -- the likes of which could've been agreed upon and written up by low-level attorneys working at home on the weekend while players reported for training camps.

But Stern characterized the distance between the sides as "a gulf," and added, "We just can't get over the system hurdles."

"It makes no sense for us to operate under the current model, where taxpayers ... have a huge advantage over other teams," Silver said.

Unsurprisingly, each side had a different view of the others' vision of the system they were negotiating to achieve. According to a union source, the players agreed to concessions on contract length -- reducing them from five- and six-year deals in the previous CBA to five- and four-year deals -- and offered to lower the mid-level exception from its previous level of about $5.8 million to $5 million. The source said league negotiators were insisting on a reduction in the mid-level to $3 million a year.

Not mundane enough for you? Other aspects of the impasse included annual raises. The players offered to reduce them from 10.5 percent and 8 percent for "Larry Bird" free agents under the previous deal to 10.5 percent and 9 percent for Bird free agents and 8 percent and 7 percent for other players. Hunter said owners wanted to forbid tax-paying teams from using the Bird exception, meaning they would need to have cap space to retain one of their Bird free agents.

The totality of the owners' system offers -- including a more punitive luxury-tax model that would increase to as much as 4-1 and beyond for repeat offenders -- would have the same effects as a hard salary cap, Hunter said.

"My attitude is, if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck and it looks like a duck, it's a duck," Hunter said. "... We came up with proposals to stiffen the tax, but we do not want a hard cap. You can't say, 'OK, we agree we're going to move away from a hard cap,' but then do everything else that brings about the same result."
Link

 

[pmatic]

Stern cancels two weeks over labor impasse

Citing an impasse with the players' association over matters that seemed trivial entering the home stretch of negotiations, David Stern announced Monday night the cancellation of regular season games for the second time in his more than a quarter century as commissioner.

Stern canceled the first two weeks of the regular season after more than 13 hours of bargaining over two days with the National Basketball Players Association left the two sides "very, very far apart on virtually all issues."

"I'm sorry to report, particularly for the thousands of people that depend on our industry for their livlihood, that the first two weeks of the season have been canceled," Stern said.

Asked if there was no chance of having an 82-game season, Stern said, "Yes, I think that's right. And every day that goes by, we need to look at further reductions in what's left in the season."

The biggest issue that separated the parties in negotiations that began in earnest with the owners' initial proposal in January 2010 -- the split of revenues -- was not the tipping point that led to the cancellation. It was system issues -- luxury tax, contract length, length of the CBA, annual raises, and the like -- meaning that both sides will miss games over details neither imagined they would.

"I'm convinced this was all just part of the plan," said Billy Hunter, executive director of the National Basketball Players Association.

Indeed, a person involved in the negotiations told CBSSports.com that the cancellation seemed "pre-ordained."

"This could have been solved so easily, with any amount of effort," the person said.

Indeed, the two sides engaged in a flurry of lengthy talks over the past two weeks, culminating with six hours Sunday night and seven hours on Monday -- all dealing with system issues with no sunstantive discussion of the split of basketball-related income. Speaking on the sidewalk outside the Upper East Side hotel where negotiations took place, Stern delivered a laundry list of items that league negotiators found most objectionable about the players' proposals: contract length, length of the CBA, use of exceptions by tax-paying teams, the tax levels and what deputy commissioner Adam Silver described as the "frequency of the tax."

The latter point, according to a union source, apparently was in reference to the owners desire to punish teams that repeatedly spend over new luxury-tax thresholds in order to prevent "runaway teams" in big markets from maintaining an unfair competitive advantage over small-market teams.

Such negotiating points seemed minor heading into the final push to save regular season games, given that last Tuesday, the two sides had shaved about $1.6 billion off the economic gap that separated them. Few observers and some participants in the talks expected games to be lost over technical deal points -- the likes of which could've been agreed upon and written up by low-level attorneys working at home on the weekend while players reported for training camps.

But Stern characterized the distance between the sides as "a gulf," and added, "We just can't get over the system hurdles."

"It makes no sense for us to operate under the current model, where taxpayers ... have a huge advantage over other teams," Silver said.

Unsurprisingly, each side had a different view of the others' vision of the system they were negotiating to achieve. According to a union source, the players agreed to concessions on contract length -- reducing them from five- and six-year deals in the previous CBA to five- and four-year deals -- and offered to lower the mid-level exception from its previous level of about $5.8 million to $5 million. The source said league negotiators were insisting on a reduction in the mid-level to $3 million a year.

Not mundane enough for you? Other aspects of the impasse included annual raises. The players offered to reduce them from 10.5 percent and 8 percent for "Larry Bird" free agents under the previous deal to 10.5 percent and 9 percent for Bird free agents and 8 percent and 7 percent for other players. Hunter said owners wanted to forbid tax-paying teams from using the Bird exception, meaning they would need to have cap space to retain one of their Bird free agents.

The totality of the owners' system offers -- including a more punitive luxury-tax model that would increase to as much as 4-1 and beyond for repeat offenders -- would have the same effects as a hard salary cap, Hunter said.

"My attitude is, if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck and it looks like a duck, it's a duck," Hunter said. "... We came up with proposals to stiffen the tax, but we do not want a hard cap. You can't say, 'OK, we agree we're going to move away from a hard cap,' but then do everything else that brings about the same result."
Link

 

[Bert.]

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

Question: What are the chances of the NBA just going out and getting replacement players. Say if this season is done. And we are in September of 2012 and no agreement has been reached. What then?

0% chance, never will happen. NBA is all about a quality product and $$$, who would pay to go see replacement players?

 

[Bert.]

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

Question: What are the chances of the NBA just going out and getting replacement players. Say if this season is done. And we are in September of 2012 and no agreement has been reached. What then?

0% chance, never will happen. NBA is all about a quality product and $$$, who would pay to go see replacement players?

 

[pr0phecy718]

Originally Posted by Zyzz

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

Question: What are the chances of the NBA just going out and getting replacement players. Say if this season is done. And we are in September of 2012 and no agreement has been reached. What then?

0% chance, never will happen. NBA is all about a quality product and $$$, who would pay to go see replacement players?

In the last lockout, Stern threatened to use replacement players....so hey, never say never lol

 

[pr0phecy718]

Originally Posted by Zyzz

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

Question: What are the chances of the NBA just going out and getting replacement players. Say if this season is done. And we are in September of 2012 and no agreement has been reached. What then?

0% chance, never will happen. NBA is all about a quality product and $$$, who would pay to go see replacement players?

In the last lockout, Stern threatened to use replacement players....so hey, never say never lol

 

[coldcity]

@#$%^&*()(*&^$%#@$%^&$%#$#$%%%%%%%%%%#%^%$#@!@#@!@

 

[coldcity]

@#$%^&*()(*&^$%#@$%^&$%#$#$%%%%%%%%%%#%^%$#@!@#@!@

 

[htownrox14]

The NBA/Stern is putting on a PR clinic right now. The players look worse and worse by the day.

The players will end up getting screwed when this is all over.

 

[htownrox14]

The NBA/Stern is putting on a PR clinic right now. The players look worse and worse by the day.

The players will end up getting screwed when this is all over.

 

[jdiddy]

I would watch a replacement team. Won't buy, but I'll watch.

 

[jdiddy]

I would watch a replacement team. Won't buy, but I'll watch.

 

[Bert.]

Originally Posted by RustyShackleford

Originally Posted by ill steelo

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

Question: What are the chances of the NBA just going out and getting replacement players. Say if this season is done. And we are in September of 2012 and no agreement has been reached. What then?

Who's going to watch that?

Someone get Truth on the phone. Tell him it's game time 

sad thing is he still wouldnt make it

 

[Bert.]

Originally Posted by RustyShackleford

Originally Posted by ill steelo

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

Question: What are the chances of the NBA just going out and getting replacement players. Say if this season is done. And we are in September of 2012 and no agreement has been reached. What then?

Who's going to watch that?

Someone get Truth on the phone. Tell him it's game time 

sad thing is he still wouldnt make it

 

[Bert.]

Originally Posted by RustyShackleford

Originally Posted by ill steelo

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

Question: What are the chances of the NBA just going out and getting replacement players. Say if this season is done. And we are in September of 2012 and no agreement has been reached. What then?

Who's going to watch that?

Someone get Truth on the phone. Tell him it's game time 

sad thing is he still wouldnt make it