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Irving and Wall are two COMPLETELY different types of point guards. I actually think that it's hard to compare the two. Each has different aspects of their games that they do better than the other player.
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How and why?The reason why I wouldn't make that trade is because I'm thinking about the future. If Kyrie is better than John, good for him. But Wall has the potential to be a more valuable player down the line because of the type of player he is. t.
How and why?
How and why?
Steph can ball but he isn't capable of half the things Kyrie and even Wall are. Both own him as far as leadership, all around scoring (Steph's got the 3 ball on them no question), and ball handling. Steph is frail as **** and can't play defense either. Considering Kyrie is only in his 2nd year, does he not look significantly better than Wall and Steph did at this point? Wall ain't had **** to work with but it's not like Kyrie has either. Regardless, I think Wall will have a nice career in the league whether it's with the Wizards or not, hopefully you guys get him the help he deserves and make some noise within the next few years.
What success?I think DT is thinking along the lines of the success of a "scoring" guard vs. a more traditional PG leading an offense.
I could be wrong, but that's what I got from what he posted.
And none of that means he will be or even probably will be better in the future though.
Historically a great PG doesn't = rings, so based on historical evidence, neither will get a ring.
When was the last time a GREAT PG won a ring?
So miss me with that please. This discussion isn't even about winning rings.
I would argue that teams with scoring PG's generally are more successful than "Pure" pg's.
I think folks are caught up in Wall's assist numbers too much. He is not as great of a passer/distributor as some are making him out to be. But I won't go back and forth on that because that is an eye test thing. We all have different eyes.Steph's numbers look exactly like Irving's but his team is winning. But I do think Irving is better than Steph right now. In no way does Kyrie look significantly better than Wall. Wall can run a team way better than him, play defense way better, and his passing is light years better. They are two different players (a scoring pg and a pure pg) so it's hard to compare those two right now.
Tony Parker is very good. I am talking about historically great players. I mean I think that is what most of us assume Wall and Kyrie to end up as right?What's your definition of "great?"
Rondo? Tony Parker? Or are you talking about someone on the same level as Zeke/Magic? That's a REALLY high bar.
When is the last time someone in a scoring guard mold won a ring?
I think folks are caught up in Wall's assist numbers too much. He is not as great of a passer/distributor as some are making him out to be. But I won't go back and forth on that because that is an eye test thing. We all have different eyes.
You're disagreeing?
Let's be real, if Kyrie was a playmaker he would be showing it, idc who his teammates are. CP3 averaged 8apg as a rookie on a bad team. Rubio averaged 8apg as a rookie on a bad team. Wall averaged 8apg as a rookie on a bad team. Kidd averaged 8apg as a rookie on a bad team.
Kyrie is a more valuable player than Wall right now, but you can basically predict his career arc already. He will be a more efficient Gilbert Arenas with better bball IQ and playmaking ability. Peak averages will probably be around 28-6-4.
That's great for him and I'm sure he'll make plenty of All-Star teams, but that playing style doesn't necessarily produce wins. People talk about Lebron turning the franchise around, but Bron as a forward averaged more assists than Kyrie in his first two years. You can't turn a franchise around with a scoring PG, you need a playmaker you can build around.
Like I said, I believe Kyrie is a more valuable player than Wall right now. But I still wouldn't trade Wall for Kyrie, no way. Give Wall an elite wing shooter (Beal?) and an elite PF and you can guarantee he will spread the ball around and average 10+ apg. IDK if you can say the same for Irving.
The other issue is that the Cavs drafted two players who are almost redundant in Kyrie and Waiters. Their skillsets overlap because both are scorers, and both like having the ball and attacking off the dribble. In the Cavs games I've seen, when Kyrie is scoring Waiters is watching the ball. When Waiters is scoring, Kyrie is watching the ball. Compare that to the Wizards with Wall/Beal. They complement each other perfectly because Wall is a pass-first, drive and dish PG and Beal is an intelligent shooter who picks his spots and can knock down shots without needing to dribble (unlike his predecessor Nick Young). Also, Kyrie/Waiters are pretty bad defensively while Wall/Beal look like they will be an elite defensive duo within a few years.
Not hating on the Cavs/Kyrie or anything, but I think it's interesting to compare seeing as both teams are young and in similar situations.
I think folks are caught up in Wall's assist numbers too much. He is not as great of a passer/distributor as some are making him out to be. But I won't go back and forth on that because that is an eye test thing. We all have different eyes.
You can't say scoring PG's don't equal to wins. A bad team doesn't equal to wins.Great points, scoring pg's don't translate to wins. We should know that as Wiz fans, we had the greatest scoring PG in this era in Arenas. That translated to 3 or 4 playoff appearances and getting to the 2nd round once.
With his CURRENT team I would disagree.I'm never said that scoring PG = losing. The Wizards had a scoring PG and were a consistent playoff team.
What I said is that from a basketball standpoint, Kyrie's playing style does not maximize his teammates abilities.
That is the thing, nobody has condemned him to mediocrity. Folks are simply saying he isn't ELITE. He isn't/will never be Rose/Westbrook/Rondo.O
I think its too early to condemn john wall to mediocrity. .
I'm never said that scoring PG = losing. The Wizards had a scoring PG and were a consistent playoff team.
What I said is that from a basketball standpoint, Kyrie's playing style does not maximize his teammates abilities.
This is what I am referring to.Great points, scoring pg's don't translate to wins. We should know that as Wiz fans, we had the greatest scoring PG in this era in Arenas. That translated to 3 or 4 playoff appearances and getting to the 2nd round once.
Are you reading what I am typing man?No one said he was elite.