Washington Wizards 2012-2013 Season Thread - Thanks for a great year!

[jjs07]

Irving and Wall are two COMPLETELY different types of point guards. I actually think that it's hard to compare the two. Each has different aspects of their games that they do better than the other player.

 

[trynafeelmink]

I swear perception rules the world these days it's like nobody watches games its just whatever the the majority says. Kyrie didnt get any of this hype he's getting this year until the video came out of him mixing team USA (BTW the players on that squad ALL claimed John Wall was the best young player out there). But fast forward a couple months Kyrie is scoring A lot on a horrible team, has a few more endorsements & suddenly he's an elite PG.

and as far as the Wizards trading for Rudy Gay if it doesnt Involve Beal Hell Yea you take that trade. He's only on for two more years after this and his contract expires right around the time Beal's up for an extension. You keep Ariza & Okafor and sure you have two expirings next year you also have anothor team built for the Lottery and the stigma of a losing team still. Couple that along with a Organization that has been TERRIBLE with high picks (Outside of Wall & Beal) and that's a combo for disaster.

IF you trade for Rudy this year, by the start of next season he's integrated into the system And you then have a starting lineup of

Wall
Beal
Gay
seraphin
Nene

IMO that team fights for a 6-8 seed in the east and also allows Their young guys to get use to playing winning basketball and more importantly Showcase Wall & Beals Value. DC is a great destination for a Pro Player but they have to show that there dedicated to winning if they ever want to bring a Superstar thru to DC. They have been pitiful for the past 20 years and finally putting together a team that can make the playoffs every year would be big.

At the start of the 2015 season they would have Wall Locked Up, Beal Locked up, Nene as an expiring contract, and money to go after a big Free agent.... So how does Bringing in Rudy gay hurt them at all.

Instead yall want them to continue to lose, lower the value of their players & franchise by surrounding their two young stars with trash for another two years to open up cap space & come back with Nothing? (Because no player is going to agree with signing to a team who is always ok with losing)

 

[DCAllAfrican]

The reason why I wouldn't make that trade is because I'm thinking about the future. If Kyrie is better than John, good for him. But Wall has the potential to be a more valuable player down the line because of the type of player he is. t.

How and why?

 

[jjs07]

How and why?

I think DT is thinking along the lines of the success of a "scoring" guard vs. a more traditional PG leading an offense.

I could be wrong, but that's what I got from what he posted.

 

[jsindaa]

How and why?

That's easy. Because wall has always been a better defender, distributor, and rebounder. As well as just as capable of a scorer. Sure Kyrie might get you 30 any given night but Wall can get you a triple double. It's almost exactly the same as when people would argue Kobe and Bron. Kobe is a better scorer but Bron affects the entire game. Their potential had them going that way...and historically a scoring PG does not equal rings. Is that what you're saying DT?

 

[DCAllAfrican]

And none of that means he will be or even probably will be better in the future though.

Historically a great PG doesn't = rings, so based on historical evidence, neither will get a ring.

When was the last time a GREAT PG won a ring?

So miss me with that please. This discussion isn't even about winning rings.

 

[thekingofva]

Steph can ball but he isn't capable of half the things Kyrie and even Wall are. Both own him as far as leadership, all around scoring (Steph's got the 3 ball on them no question), and ball handling. Steph is frail as **** and can't play defense either. Considering Kyrie is only in his 2nd year, does he not look significantly better than Wall and Steph did at this point? Wall ain't had **** to work with but it's not like Kyrie has either. Regardless, I think Wall will have a nice career in the league whether it's with the Wizards or not, hopefully you guys get him the help he deserves and make some noise within the next few years.

Steph's numbers look exactly like Irving's but his team is winning. But I do think Irving is better than Steph right now. In no way does Kyrie look significantly better than Wall. Wall can run a team way better than him, play defense way better, and his passing is light years better. They are two different players (a scoring pg and a pure pg) so it's hard to compare those two right now.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

I think DT is thinking along the lines of the success of a "scoring" guard vs. a more traditional PG leading an offense.

I could be wrong, but that's what I got from what he posted.

What success?

Individual or Team?

I would argue that teams with scoring PG's generally are more successful than "Pure" pg's.

 

[jjs07]

And none of that means he will be or even probably will be better in the future though.

Historically a great PG doesn't = rings, so based on historical evidence, neither will get a ring.

When was the last time a GREAT PG won a ring?

So miss me with that please. This discussion isn't even about winning rings.

What's your definition of "great?"

Rondo? Tony Parker? Or are you talking about someone on the same level as Zeke/Magic? That's a REALLY high bar.

When is the last time someone in a scoring point guard mold won a ring?

I would argue that teams with scoring PG's generally are more successful than "Pure" pg's.

Successful as far as winning a ring...or successful as far as CAREER accolades (no titles)?

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Steph's numbers look exactly like Irving's but his team is winning. But I do think Irving is better than Steph right now. In no way does Kyrie look significantly better than Wall. Wall can run a team way better than him, play defense way better, and his passing is light years better. They are two different players (a scoring pg and a pure pg) so it's hard to compare those two right now.

I think folks are caught up in Wall's assist numbers too much. He is not as great of a passer/distributor as some are making him out to be. But I won't go back and forth on that because that is an eye test thing. We all have different eyes.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

What's your definition of "great?"

Rondo? Tony Parker? Or are you talking about someone on the same level as Zeke/Magic? That's a REALLY high bar.

When is the last time someone in a scoring guard mold won a ring?

Tony Parker is very good. I am talking about historically great players. I mean I think that is what most of us assume Wall and Kyrie to end up as right?

And as far as what types of PG's win rings, basic ones usually do. I don't feel being PURE or SCORING really matters since that is one position and it takes a team to win it all.

Which is why I said it is pointless for anyone to even bring up rings in this topic.

 

[thekingofva]

I think folks are caught up in Wall's assist numbers too much. He is not as great of a passer/distributor as some are making him out to be. But I won't go back and forth on that because that is an eye test thing. We all have different eyes.

I'm using the eye test too. Look at the tape from the Kings game. Wall routinely got Beal and Webster wide open jumpers over and over. His post entry passes are on the money and his fast break passes this season are way smoother than last year. Wall is averaging like 11 apg per 36 minutes with the 2nd highest PER for PG's (only behind Chris Paul). His passes are crisp and he has lowered his turnovers down a lot this season. Only a handful of pg's have ever averaged over 8 apg in their first two season and all of them were great pass first pg's. Now wait til Wall gets in game shape and gets use to playing with more talent. He will be around 9-10 apg and 16 ppg 4 rpg.

 

[finallyfamous]

You're disagreeing?

Absolutely.

 

[thekingofva]

Let's be real, if Kyrie was a playmaker he would be showing it, idc who his teammates are. CP3 averaged 8apg as a rookie on a bad team. Rubio averaged 8apg as a rookie on a bad team. Wall averaged 8apg as a rookie on a bad team. Kidd averaged 8apg as a rookie on a bad team.
Kyrie is a more valuable player than Wall right now, but you can basically predict his career arc already. He will be a more efficient Gilbert Arenas with better bball IQ and playmaking ability. Peak averages will probably be around 28-6-4.

That's great for him and I'm sure he'll make plenty of All-Star teams, but that playing style doesn't necessarily produce wins. People talk about Lebron turning the franchise around, but Bron as a forward averaged more assists than Kyrie in his first two years. You can't turn a franchise around with a scoring PG, you need a playmaker you can build around.

Like I said, I believe Kyrie is a more valuable player than Wall right now. But I still wouldn't trade Wall for Kyrie, no way. Give Wall an elite wing shooter (Beal?) and an elite PF and you can guarantee he will spread the ball around and average 10+ apg. IDK if you can say the same for Irving.


The other issue is that the Cavs drafted two players who are almost redundant in Kyrie and Waiters. Their skillsets overlap because both are scorers, and both like having the ball and attacking off the dribble. In the Cavs games I've seen, when Kyrie is scoring Waiters is watching the ball. When Waiters is scoring, Kyrie is watching the ball. Compare that to the Wizards with Wall/Beal. They complement each other perfectly because Wall is a pass-first, drive and dish PG and Beal is an intelligent shooter who picks his spots and can knock down shots without needing to dribble (unlike his predecessor Nick Young). Also, Kyrie/Waiters are pretty bad defensively while Wall/Beal look like they will be an elite defensive duo within a few years.

Not hating on the Cavs/Kyrie or anything, but I think it's interesting to compare seeing as both teams are young and in similar situations.

Great points, scoring pg's don't translate to wins. We should know that as Wiz fans, we had the greatest scoring PG in this era in Arenas. That translated to 3 or 4 playoff appearances and getting to the 2nd round once.

 

[jjs07]

I think folks are caught up in Wall's assist numbers too much. He is not as great of a passer/distributor as some are making him out to be. But I won't go back and forth on that because that is an eye test thing. We all have different eyes.

The missed assist #'s for Wall last year were glaring. The fact he has put up the 16/8 numbers (or whatever it is) while playing with absolute HORRID teammates is amazing. You have to take into consideration the organizational dysfunction, aloof teammates, etc. In the NBA thread, I thought it was fair to reserve judgement on wall as a bust (LOL)/sucky player until after this year is over. Reason being, he has the best b-ball IQ around him collectively since he came into the league. Let's see what he does over the final 45+ games before we come up with an answer as to what he'll be as a player. And even then it may be too premature to say anything. Remember, as of now he ONLY has 138 CAREER games under his belt. He's still extremely raw by NBA standards. I think the Gary Payton comparisons are more than fair. They have a similar career arc. IMO, I think Wall WILL end up as one of the top 2-3 PGs in the league. It's just on the front office to surround him with enough complimentary talent to not only help him as a player, but also help the team get some W's.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Great points, scoring pg's don't translate to wins. We should know that as Wiz fans, we had the greatest scoring PG in this era in Arenas. That translated to 3 or 4 playoff appearances and getting to the 2nd round once.

You can't say scoring PG's don't equal to wins. A bad team doesn't equal to wins.

Tony Parker is a scoring PG
Westbrook is a scoring PG

It is the TEAM man. That is a baseless statement to say Scoring PG's don't equal to wins.

 

[dt43]

Tony Parker plays with the greatest PF of all time. Westbrook plays with one of the greatest scorers of all time. Neither are the anchors of their team, the team is not "built" around them. The equivalent of those situations would be Lebron coming back to Cleveland to play with Kyrie. If that happens, then of course the Cavs would be good.

Honestly, can someone tell me if what I'm saying is really that controversial? Or am I just crazy? I thought a PGs job was to distribute the ball. If your best player is a point guard who is primarily a scorer, your team is not optimally poised to get the most out of every player on the floor. Even Derrick Rose became an 8+apg guy as the Bulls grew into contenders.

The only exception I can think of is Allen Iverson, a HOF once-in-a-lifetime player whose career will likely never be duplicated. I don't think any franchise has ever said "We're trying to follow the 2001 Sixers model"

It's basic basketball. You want a guy at the point who will spread the ball around. Pair them with a wing scorer, a good PF, and a defensive C, and you have yourself a squad. You can't possibly convince me that the Cavs will ever reach their potential with Irving out there And1 iso'ing. He's not making any of his teammates better right now. If what I'm saying really sounds that crazy to people, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree

 

[DCAllAfrican]

You are adding to my point.

It isn't the TYPE of PG that leads to winning/losing, it is the TEAM that the point guard is on.

To say Scoring PG's lead to losing is baseless.

THAT is all I am saying here.

 

[dt43]

I'm never said that scoring PG = losing. The Wizards had a scoring PG and were a consistent playoff team.

What I said is that from a basketball standpoint, Kyrie's playing style does not maximize his teammates abilities.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

I'm never said that scoring PG = losing. The Wizards had a scoring PG and were a consistent playoff team.

What I said is that from a basketball standpoint, Kyrie's playing style does not maximize his teammates abilities.

With his CURRENT team I would disagree.

Only way Alonzo Gee is scoring is from a cutting play, putback, fastbreak.
Dion Waiters needs to ball to do his thing.
CJ Miles catch a shoot dude.
Andy is a garbage man.

Nobody on that team is worth a damn offensively. Nothing he can do will make that team better. Jesus at the point wouldn't make that team better.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

O

I think its too early to condemn john wall to mediocrity. .

That is the thing, nobody has condemned him to mediocrity. Folks are simply saying he isn't ELITE. He isn't/will never be Rose/Westbrook/Rondo.

That is fine. He can still have a good NBA career.

Have been plenty of NBA PG's that were elite that made it happen through history.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

I'm never said that scoring PG = losing. The Wizards had a scoring PG and were a consistent playoff team.

What I said is that from a basketball standpoint, Kyrie's playing style does not maximize his teammates abilities.

Great points, scoring pg's don't translate to wins. We should know that as Wiz fans, we had the greatest scoring PG in this era in Arenas. That translated to 3 or 4 playoff appearances and getting to the 2nd round once.

This is what I am referring to.

Gilbert being a scoring PG is not what only led the team to the 2nd round once. The Wizards not being better than the teams they played in the playoffs is why they only got to the 2nd round once. Gilbert's playstyle is NOT the reason the Wizards lost.

 

[jsindaa]

No one said he was elite.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

No one said he was elite.

Are you reading what I am typing man?

 

[jsindaa]

And PLEASE tell me why he can NEVER be elite? Ill wait