***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[osh kosh bosh]

If only there was an easy way to reign in some of these budgets. If only there was something that increased exponentially in the last decade alone that takes up a significant portion of a budget.

i really don't understand what argument youre making,

you want to cut police overtime?

 

[RustyShackleford]

oh im guessing no. id bet no.

but im leaving out the possibility, that bidens senate magic is real or the mitch thinks getting something done might help keep him pat toomey and ron jonsons seat.



prob not tho



but either way. defunding the police is a hard no. as I think it's dumb and counter productive.

Let me get this straight, so you think reassigning part of the duties the police have been made to do (that could be handled by other first responders) to other agencies and city employees, and along with that taking some of the police budgets to fund those other agencies dumb and counterproductive?

Because that is the most popular interruption of what defending the police means.

 

[gry60]

 

[gry60]

"At base, conservative ideology itself was just as responsible for the failure to appropriately and effectively respond to this crisis as Trump's personal failings were," the two argue. "And that ideology will still be present—rife, in fact—in our government long after Trump is gone."

While acknowledging that conservatism is "not homogenous," Linden and Aibinder argue that at the heart of the reactionary ideology is the view that "government itself tends to cause more problems than it solves, and that free markets—unencumbered by government intervention—are always best positioned to allocate resources and improve society."

Adherence to those two positions, according to Linden and Aibinder, is incompatible with an effective response to a pandemic that necessitates coordinated state action to control the spread of the virus, which has now killed more than 273,000 people in the U.S.—the highest Covid-19 death toll in the world.

In contrast with countries like New Zealand and South Korea, where decisive government action helped prevent Covid-19 from running rampant, Linden and Aibinder noted that the U.S. response was plagued by "the conservative belief that government is more often the problem than the solution," which "made it practically inevitable that Republicans would render their own government ineffective."

 

[junglejim]

i really don't understand what argument youre making,

you want to cut police overtime?

By cutting overtime they can hire more officers and still reduce their budget, so yes. They are now spending 3000% more on overtime than they were in 2009 and and 235% more than they were in 2015-2016.

The point being their overall budget has increased by 210% since 2000. Has there been a 210% reduction in crime to correspond to the increase in spending? How much has violent crime decreased? How much has petty crimes decreased? Im willing to be the answer is it hasn’t and the answer to simply spending more on police isn’t having the effect you say it does

 

[RustyShackleford]

What is wild is that I have been in townhalls and meetings with the community activist and Police reps, and the police are even hostile to some policies to INCREASE their funding.

One person brought up stats about how cops are more likely to have incidents where they use excessive force and that run dealy happen toward the end of their shifts and when they work extensively long shifts. They recommended that Metro hire more cops so that cops on patrols are not overworked, as a way to lower the chances of excessive force being used. The police were kinda vibing with it until someone mentioned that the savings from less overtime would offset the cost.

The conversation turned into overtime needing to stay so cops can support their families.

Aks them to mandate more recruits come from certain areas, or that more thorough background checks be done on hires, and that is unacceptable because we are tying their hands.

People are saying they are cool with giving the police more, they just want input on how the money is spent. And it was a problem.

The damn City of Las Vegas is criminalizing homelessness, and the cops hate having to constantly respond to calls where they gotta deal with clearing out homeless people. Like this is an assigned responsibility for them that is new and they hate doing, but the city gave them money to do. Yet suggest that a less little go to the police budget on in the coming yes to help fund more social workers and build homelessness shelter, or form private-public partnerships, then it is nah. They want it off their plate but they want to keep the budget jump, because they are the potential that things turn violent and the police have to respond. People looked at each other confused like "isn't that your job" and weren't you doing at all the time.

Brah, I couldn't believe what I was hearing. Its hours of "we hear you, but no". And I know people that have been at this dance with the police for decades

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Let me get this straight, so you think reassigning part of the duties the police have been made to do (that could be handled by other first responders) to other agencies and city employees, and along with that taking some of the police budgets to fund those other agencies dumb and counterproductive?

Because that is the most popular interruption of what defending the police means.

yes I think that there are plenty things that would really improve policing and that cost more money not less.

and while many of those things you mention would good,

the first order problem of solving and preventing crime is something if anything we should increase not decrease spending.

-the homicide rate is up pretty significantly in American cities.
-the solve rate for many crimes are pretty low.
-police officers only spend about 13 weeks on average in the academy.
-and there's some evidence having a more diverse police force seems to improve crime solve rates for minority communities.

seems to me, improved, longer training, attracting more diverse police force, attracting university graduates for detective work, increasing foot patrols
and

given the power of police unions maybe even money to incentivize older white cops to retire earlier to speed up the diversification.

seems to me these things all cost money.

simply removing police functions and breaking them off to other agencies won't actually decrease the budget unless you are cutting the actual number of police and I think that would be bad.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

By cutting overtime they can hire more officers and still reduce their budget, so yes. They are now spending 3000% more on overtime than they were in 2009 and and 235% more than they were in 2015-2016.

The point being their overall budget has increased by 210% since 2000. Has there been a 210% reduction in crime to correspond to the increase in spending? How much has violent crime decreased? How much has petty crimes decreased? Im willing to be the answer is it hasn’t and the answer to simply spending more on police isn’t having the effect you say it does

well violent crime has been on a pretty steep decline since the 90's but no one know for sure exactly why. (lead exposure sounds the most compelling to me.)

i mean there were a bunch of protests and looting ect which im guessing put a pretty big dent in the overtime.

like i said im not in favor of handing the police a blank check.

but more money for effective policing? that's what im in favor of.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

What is wild is that I have been in townhalls and meetings with the community activist and Police reps, and the police are even hostile to some policies to INCREASE their funding.

One person brought up stats about how cops are more likely to have incidents where they use excessive force and that run dealy happen toward the end of their shifts and when they work extensively long shifts. They recommended that Metro hire more cops so that cops on patrols are not overworked, as a way to lower the chances of excessive force being used. The police were kinda vibing with it until someone mentioned that the savings from less overtime would offset the cost.

The conversation turned into overtime needing to stay so cops can support their families.

Aks them to mandate more recruits come from certain areas, or that more thorough background checks be done on hires, and that is unacceptable because we are tying their hands.

People are saying they are cool with giving the police more, they just want input on how the money is spent. And it was a problem.

The damn City of Las Vegas is criminalizing homelessness, and the cops hate having to constantly respond to calls where they gotta deal with clearing out homeless people. Like this is an assigned responsibility for them that is new and they hate doing, but the city gave them money to do. Yet suggest that a less little go to the police budget on in the coming yes to help fund more social workers and build homelessness shelter, or form private-public partnerships, then it is nah. They want it off their plate but they want to keep the budget jump, because they are the potential that things turn violent and the police have to respond. People looked at each other confused like "isn't that your job" and weren't you doing at all the time.

Brah, I couldn't believe what I was hearing. Its hours of "we hear you, but no". And I know people that have been at this with the police for decades

yeah it's totally pathological and difficult to solve. The police unions are an underrated part of the problem. they have too much power.

feel like theres gotta be a way democratic governors need to play some hardball?

like the conservative movement has been on a decades long effort to destroy private sector unions seems to me they have basically succeed but they let police unions run wild because they are political allies.


seems to me there's a need for an enterprising progressive governor to really break the back of the police unions.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

In general it's also pretty problematic for progressives that it seems like damn near every blue state republican governor who does nothing but maintain the status quo is wildly popular


and the biggest progressive states like California and New York seem semi dysfunctional.

seems to me like it make it makes progressive ideas a harder sell.


slow boring had a newsletter on this I found compelling.


what progressive governor would you site as the real exemplar of boundary pushing progressive policy making?


Like I think about Canada,

universal health care started in one province by Tommy Douglas and then eventually was adopted across the country. what state represents the best of progressivism?

 

[junglejim]

well violent crime has been on a pretty steep decline since the 90's but no one know for sure exactly why. (lead exposure sounds the most compelling to me.)

i mean there were a bunch of protests and looting ect which im guessing put a pretty big dent in the overtime.

like i said im not in favor of handing the police a blank check.

but more money for effective policing? that's what im in favor of.

Ironically the very thing people were protesting is the thing that caused more officer pay.

But in terms of a blank check this is exactly what we have been doing. Every year we hand them whatever they ask for with little to no oversight. Every year they request more, and every year we pay them more. Your solution to give them more funds isn’t new and we have been doing it with police and military funding over the last two decades with very little to show for it other than what you referred to as large cities having low homicide closure rates. Despite giving them more every single year, these problems still persist.

Defunding the police may be a stupid idea in your mind, but we have been doing what you are asking for for decades and all it’s doing is straining budgets with no oversight whatsoever. It’s time to stop doing the status quo because what you are asking for and getting isn’t working.

We literally cannot fund more social programs because police and military take up such a large part of our federal, state, and local budgets. The solution either comes in the form of higher taxes or making these departments make real decision about how they are funded.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

It’s time to stop doing the status quo because what you are asking for and getting isn’t working.

yah but the status quo is not what im asking for.


as i said.

"seems to me, improved, longer training, attracting more diverse police force, attracting university graduates for detective work, increasing foot patrols
and

given the power of police unions maybe even money to incentivize older white cops to retire earlier to speed up the diversification."

that is not the status quo.

 

[IATT]

 

[junglejim]

yah but the status quo is not what im asking for.


as i said.

"seems to me, improved, longer training, attracting more diverse police force, attracting university graduates for detective work, increasing foot patrols
and

given the power of police unions maybe even money to incentivize older white cops to retire earlier to speed up the diversification."

that is not the status quo.

And how exactly do you get police departments to do these thing if they are unwilling to do so?

More likely than not it won’t happen on a federal level.

 

[Based Jesus]

And how exactly do you get police departments to do these thing if they are unwilling to do so?

More likely than not it won’t happen on a federal level.

Tim Scott

 

[Brownstone]

To me, you reward non-violent interactions and reward de-escalation with financial incentives, not pointless overtime fraud schemes they now push...

 

[gry60]

The conversation turned into overtime needing to stay so cops can support their families.

Tell me somebody quoted Latrell Sprewell

 

[gry60]

seems to me, improved, longer training, attracting more diverse police force, attracting university graduates for detective work, increasing foot patrols
and

given the power of police unions maybe even money to incentivize older white cops to retire earlier to speed up the diversification.

As Rusty pointed out, cops don't want any of this ****. They want more money and less responsibilities, and this is what police unions currently give them.

Hence, "Defund the police."

 

[osh kosh bosh]

As Rusty pointed out, cops don't want any of this ****. They want more money and less responsibilities, and this is what police unions currently give them.

Hence, "Defund the police."

yah police union opposition is not a reason to pursue bad policy.

 

[wr]

To me, you reward non-violent interactions and reward de-escalation with financial incentives, not pointless overtime fraud schemes they now push...

That's the only way anything will get done.
With a financial incentive.
If they are gonna be printing money forever, might as well pay people to make better decisions.
Even with all that power it's still hard to just make simple change. Things the way they are hold a negative peace together that too many ppl eat off of to warrant any big shake ups.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

And how exactly do you get police departments to do these thing if they are unwilling to do so?

More likely than not it won’t happen on a federal level.

yah this is def difficult, whether you are for defund or you are for reform like me.

my understanding is decertification of police unions has helped create leverage for local governments? there must be something aggressive local governments can do to bring insane police union reps to heel.

 

[wr]

Wall street needs to start selling better behavior incentive bonds.

 

[IATT]

 

[pdino]

officers banking in my area

 

[dmbrhs]

Ga showed out for Biden I don’t see why they wouldn’t again.

As someone else said, Biden isn't on the ballot. Also, both GOP candidates had basically insurmountable margins. All people in Georgia cared about was president. Down ballot voting favored the GOP heavily.