Why am I persecuted for NOT accepting homosexuality..

Originally Posted by 00david00

Originally Posted by TimCity2000

Originally Posted by goldenchild9

Playing the devils advocate....Whats the difference between bestiality and homosexuality though?

Both have been around forever, participants of both lifestyles claim to be persecuted for feelings beyond their control and there are animals who seem to be receptive and happy with these arrangements. A dog in heat will gladly hump anything in its path and will demonstrate what can be deemed as affection across specie lines.

if that's your argument... what is the difference between bestiality and heterosexuality then?
should we allow bestiality since we allow heterosexuality?

in regards to the difference between bestiality and heterosexuality....
one produces fertile, viable offspring (required for species to survive)
and the other does not
same distinction can not be stated with regard to homosexuality vs bestiality

note: I am trying to argue that bestiality and homosexuality are the same thing, simply replying to what you asked.


  
I keep saying this like people even understand what I'm talking about but I'll keep stressing it. An animal can get its genes successfully into another generation without having children of their own.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Kin selection refers to apparent strategies in evolution that favor the reproductive success of an organism's relatives, even at a cost to the organism's own survival and reproduction. Charles Darwin was the first to discuss the concept of group/kin selection. In the "The Origin of Species", he wrote clearly about altruistic sterile social insects that
This difficulty, though appearing insuperable, is lessened, or, as I believe, disappears, when it is remembered that selection may be applied to the family, as well as to the individual, and may thus gain the desired end. Breeders of cattle wish the flesh and fat to be well marbled together. An animal thus characterized has been slaughtered, but the breeder has gone with confidence to the same stock and has succeeded" [www.classicreader.com/book/107/59/]


In this passage "the family" and "stock" stand for a kin group. These passages and others by Darwin about "kin selection" are highlighted and justly celebrated in D.J. Futuyma's textbook of reference "Evolutionary Biology" [(3rd edit.p595) ] and in E.O Wilson's "Sociobiology" [25th edit.p117-118].

The earliest mathematically formal treatments of kin selection were by R.A. Fisher in 1930 [sup][1][/sup] and J. B. S. Haldane in 1932 [sup][2][/sup] and 1955.[sup][3][/sup] Later on, in works published in 1963[sup][4][/sup] and—most importantly—in 1964,[sup][5][/sup]W. D. Hamilton popularized the concept and the more thorough mathematical treatment given to it by George Price. The term "kin selection" may first have been coined by John Maynard Smith in 1964 when he wrote:
These processes I will call kin selection and group selection respectively. Kin selection has been discussed by Haldane and by Hamilton. … By kin selection I mean the evolution of characteristics which favour the survival of close relatives of the affected individual, by processes which do not require any discontinuities in the population breeding structure.[sup][6][/sup]


Kin selection refers to changes in gene frequency across generations that are driven at least in part by interactions between related individuals, and this forms much of the conceptual basis of the theory of social evolution. Indeed, some cases of evolution by natural selection can only be understood by considering how biological relatives influence one another's fitness. Under natural selection, a gene encoding a trait that enhances the fitness of each individual carrying it should increase in frequency within the population; and conversely, a gene that lowers the individual fitness of its carriers should be eliminated. However, a hypothetical gene that prompts behaviour which enhances the fitness of relatives but lowers that of the individual displaying the behavior, may nonetheless increase in frequency, because relatives often carry the same gene; this is the fundamental principle behind the theory of kin selection. According to the theory, the enhanced fitness of relatives can at times more than compensate for the fitness loss incurred by the individuals displaying the behaviour. As such, this is a special case of a more general model, called inclusive fitness (in that inclusive fitness refers simply to gene copies in other individuals, without requiring that they be kin). However the validity of this analysis has recently been challenged.[sup][7][/sup]
[table][tr][td]
[h2]Contents[/h2] [hide
[/td][/tr][/table][h2][edit] Hamilton's rule[/h2]
Formally, such genes should increase in frequency when
2e690ec7f3aad74e29913a0b16c96a7d.png

where
r = the genetic relatedness of the recipient to the actor, often defined as the probability that a gene picked randomly from each at the same locus is identical by descent. B = the additional reproductive benefit gained by the recipient of the altruistic act, C = the reproductive cost to the individual of performing the act.
This inequality is known as Hamilton's rule after W. D. Hamilton who published, in 1964, the first formal quantitative treatment of kin selection to deal with the evolution of apparently altruistic acts.

Originally, the definition for relatedness (r) in Hamilton's rule was explicitly given as Sewall Wright's coefficient of relationship: the probability that at a random locus, the alleles there will be identical by descent (Hamilton 1963, American Naturalist, p. 355). Subsequent authors, including Hamilton, sometimes reformulate this with a regression, which, unlike probabilities, can be negative, and so it is possible for individuals to be negatively related, which simply means that two individuals can be less genetically alike than two random ones on average (Hamilton 1970, Nature & Grafen 1985 Oxford Surveys in Evolutionary Biology). This has been invoked to explain the evolution of spiteful behaviours. Spiteful behavior defines an act (or acts) that results in harm, or loss of fitness, to both the actor and the recipient.

In the 1930s J.B.S. Haldane had full grasp of the basic quantities and considerations that play a role in kin selection. He famously said that, "I would lay down my life for two brothers or eight cousins".[sup][8][/sup]Kin altruism is the term for altruistic behaviour whose evolution is supposed to have been driven by kin selection.

Haldane's remark alluded to the fact that if an individual loses its life to save two siblings, four nephews, or eight cousins, it is a "fair deal" in evolutionary terms, as siblings are on average 50% identical by descent, nephews 25%, and cousins 12.5% (in a diploid population that is randomly mating and previously outbred). But Haldane also joked that he would truly die only to save more than a single identical twin of his or more than two full siblings.

In 2011, experimentalists found empirically that Hamilton's rule describes very accurately the conditions under which altruism emerged in simulated populations of foraging robots. The accuracy of this first quantitative corroboration of Hamilton's rule is all the more impressive given that Hamilton's model made several simplifications that did not apply to the foraging robots. [sup][9][/sup]
[h2][edit] Mechanisms[/h2]
An altruistic case is one where the instigating individual suffers a fitness loss while the receiving individual benefits by a fitness gain. The sacrifice of one individual to help another is an example of altruism.

Hamilton (1964) outlined two ways in which kin selection altruism could be favoured.

Kin Recognition: Firstly, if individuals have the capacity to recognize kin (kin recognition) and to adjust their behaviour on the basis of kinship (kin discrimination), then the average relatedness of the recipients of altruism could be high enough for this to be favoured. Because of the facultative nature of this mechanism, it is generally regarded that kin recognition and discrimination are unimportant except among 'higher' forms of life (although there is some evidence for this mechanism among protozoa). A special case of the kin recognition/discrimination mechanism is the hypothetical 'green beard', where a gene for social behaviour also causes a distinctive phenotype that can be recognised by other carriers of the gene. Hamilton's discussion of greenbeard altruism serves as an illustration that relatedness is a matter of genetic similarity and that this similarity is not necessarily caused by genealogical closeness (kinship).

Viscous Populations: Secondly, even indiscriminate altruism may be favoured in so-called viscous populations, i.e. those characterized by low rates or short ranges of dispersal. Here, social partners are typically genealogically close kin, and so altruism may be able to flourish even in the absence of kin recognition and kin discrimination faculties—spatial proximity serves as a rudimentary form of discrimination. This suggests a rather general explanation for altruism. Directional selection will always favor those with higher rates of fecundity within a certain population. Social individuals can often ensure the survival of their own kin by participating in, and following the rules of a group (assuming the implied faculties for group discrimination).

These mechanisms explain a relatively high r between interacting individuals. Absolute genetic similarity is not a measure of r; rather, r shows the “excess
 
Originally Posted by 00david00

Originally Posted by TimCity2000

Originally Posted by goldenchild9

Playing the devils advocate....Whats the difference between bestiality and homosexuality though?

Both have been around forever, participants of both lifestyles claim to be persecuted for feelings beyond their control and there are animals who seem to be receptive and happy with these arrangements. A dog in heat will gladly hump anything in its path and will demonstrate what can be deemed as affection across specie lines.

if that's your argument... what is the difference between bestiality and heterosexuality then?
should we allow bestiality since we allow heterosexuality?

in regards to the difference between bestiality and heterosexuality....
one produces fertile, viable offspring (required for species to survive)
and the other does not
same distinction can not be stated with regard to homosexuality vs bestiality

note: I am trying to argue that bestiality and homosexuality are the same thing, simply replying to what you asked.
there are many heterosexual relationships that don't produce fertile, viable offspring.  is that the single criteria for allowing certain relationships to exist?
 
i dont see what the big problem with gays is.
they cannot procreate successfully without the heavy aid of science.
their bloodline will die off at that generation and never be seen again.
better for the entire universe because that gene pool is flawed.
non-asexual, multi-celled organisms main function is to reproduce before death. if that set of instructions is corrupted then the evolution of that dna string should stop.

for: Gay rights

against: their right to artificially reproduce with a child born of their natural genes and dna.
 
Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Originally Posted by 00david00

Originally Posted by TimCity2000


if that's your argument... what is the difference between bestiality and heterosexuality then?
should we allow bestiality since we allow heterosexuality?

in regards to the difference between bestiality and heterosexuality....
one produces fertile, viable offspring (required for species to survive)
and the other does not
same distinction can not be stated with regard to homosexuality vs bestiality

note: I am trying to argue that bestiality and homosexuality are the same thing, simply replying to what you asked.


  
I keep saying this like people even understand what I'm talking about but I'll keep stressing it. An animal can get its genes successfully into another generation without having children of their own.

WALL OF TEXT

That has no bearing on what me or the quoted poster are saying.
Heterosexual relations still have to take place in some capacity for that genetic continuance (read survival) to occur. Not every animal has to procreate but some must and the ONLY viable form of sex that will yield offspring is heterosexual relations...making heterosexuality the unquestioned point of reference in discussions of sexual normalcy.
 
Originally Posted by 00david00

Originally Posted by TimCity2000

Originally Posted by goldenchild9

Playing the devils advocate....Whats the difference between bestiality and homosexuality though?

Both have been around forever, participants of both lifestyles claim to be persecuted for feelings beyond their control and there are animals who seem to be receptive and happy with these arrangements. A dog in heat will gladly hump anything in its path and will demonstrate what can be deemed as affection across specie lines.

if that's your argument... what is the difference between bestiality and heterosexuality then?
should we allow bestiality since we allow heterosexuality?

in regards to the difference between bestiality and heterosexuality....
one produces fertile, viable offspring (required for species to survive)
and the other does not
same distinction can not be stated with regard to homosexuality vs bestiality

note: I am trying to argue that bestiality and homosexuality are the same thing, simply replying to what you asked.
homosexuals can also produce fertile, viable offspring. Not with the same sex partner but by being homosexual, you don't suddenly lose your ability to produce sperm or create eggs. Men can have their sperm artificially inseminated into a donor egg and carried by a surrogate mother. Women can be artificially inseminated and carry the child themselves. there is no similarity between bestiality and homosexuality. 
 
So the only difference between homosexuality and bestiality is that:

Animals aren't aware of their decisions and they can't demonstrate consent?....Both of which are patently false and stupid to even assert.
 
Originally Posted by Boys Noize

Originally Posted by 00david00

Originally Posted by TimCity2000


if that's your argument... what is the difference between bestiality and heterosexuality then?
should we allow bestiality since we allow heterosexuality?

in regards to the difference between bestiality and heterosexuality....
one produces fertile, viable offspring (required for species to survive)
and the other does not
same distinction can not be stated with regard to homosexuality vs bestiality

note: I am trying to argue that bestiality and homosexuality are the same thing, simply replying to what you asked.
homosexuals can also produce fertile, viable offspring. Not with the same sex partner but by being homosexual, you don't suddenly lose your ability to produce sperm or create eggs. Men can have their sperm artificially inseminated into a donor egg and carried by a surrogate mother. Women can be artificially inseminated and carry the child themselves. there is no similarity between bestiality and homosexuality. 
If their lifestyle was truly natural, they wouldn't have to resort to artificial means of procreation.
 
Originally Posted by goldenchild9

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Originally Posted by 00david00


in regards to the difference between bestiality and heterosexuality....
one produces fertile, viable offspring (required for species to survive)
and the other does not
same distinction can not be stated with regard to homosexuality vs bestiality

note: I am trying to argue that bestiality and homosexuality are the same thing, simply replying to what you asked.


  
I keep saying this like people even understand what I'm talking about but I'll keep stressing it. An animal can get its genes successfully into another generation without having children of their own.

WALL OF TEXT

That has no bearing on what me or the quoted poster are saying.
Heterosexual relations still have to take place in some capacity for that genetic continuance (read survival) to occur. Not every animal has to procreate but some must and the ONLY viable form of sex that will yield offspring is heterosexual relations...making it heterosexuality the unquestioned point of reference in discussions of sexual normalcy.


   I'm sorry words scare you so much but what I posted is literally beyond the scope of your understanding but it needed to be posted anyways. Heterosexuality may serve a purpose, that may be why it is so prevalent in nature. Based on equations like hardy weinberg, mutations alone are not enough to explain why homosexuality is so prevalent in nature.

Heterosexual couplings have to take place, and in the case on eusocialism members of the population who forgo reproduction (sterile or homosexual individuals) may actually promotes optimal genetic fitness by taking care of the children of a queen or siblings especially when resources are scarce.

There is a long list of things human beings do sexually that does not yield offspring (anal sex, oral sex, condoms, fetishes)-should these things be banned and punished as well?

  
 
Originally Posted by goldenchild9

So the only difference between homosexuality and bestiality is that:

Animals aren't aware of their decisions and they can't demonstrate consent?....Both of which are patently false and stupid to even assert.
The difference between adult humans having sex and an adult human having sex with an animal is consent. Find me a state in the US that acknowledges an animal is capable of giving consent to sex with a human and you win all the internets.
 
Originally Posted by Boys Noize

Originally Posted by goldenchild9

So the only difference between homosexuality and bestiality is that:

Animals aren't aware of their decisions and they can't demonstrate consent?....Both of which are patently false and stupid to even assert.
The difference between adult humans having sex and an adult human having sex with an animal is consent. Find me a state in the US that acknowledges an animal is capable of giving consent to sex with a human and you win all the internets.


   Golden child can talk to animals.
 
Originally Posted by goldenchild9

Originally Posted by Boys Noize

Originally Posted by 00david00


in regards to the difference between bestiality and heterosexuality....
one produces fertile, viable offspring (required for species to survive)
and the other does not
same distinction can not be stated with regard to homosexuality vs bestiality

note: I am trying to argue that bestiality and homosexuality are the same thing, simply replying to what you asked.
homosexuals can also produce fertile, viable offspring. Not with the same sex partner but by being homosexual, you don't suddenly lose your ability to produce sperm or create eggs. Men can have their sperm artificially inseminated into a donor egg and carried by a surrogate mother. Women can be artificially inseminated and carry the child themselves. there is no similarity between bestiality and homosexuality. 
If their lifestyle was truly natural, they wouldn't have to resort to artificial means of procreation.
Alas, real life isn't that cut and dry is it? With your line of logic, infertility in either male or female in a heterosexual couple and they're doomed, no?
Science help us all 
tired.gif
 
I find it pretty embarrassing that actual HUMAN BEINGS are being compared to dogs and toasters. If a dog
ever walks up to me and gives me consent, I'll disintegrate from the earth.
 
why is comparing race and sexuality so unaccepted? oh right...because simple folks believe sexual orientation is a choice
laugh.gif
 
Originally Posted by Boys Noize

Originally Posted by goldenchild9

So the only difference between homosexuality and bestiality is that:

Animals aren't aware of their decisions and they can't demonstrate consent?....Both of which are patently false and stupid to even assert.
The difference between adult humans having sex and an adult human having sex with an animal is consent. Find me a state in the US that acknowledges an animal is capable of giving consent to sex with a human and you win all the internets.
So you do want the states to determine a human's right to love? 
But nah you cant compare homosexuality to bestiality 
laugh.gif
 
 
Originally Posted by Boys Noize

Originally Posted by goldenchild9

So the only difference between homosexuality and bestiality is that:

Animals aren't aware of their decisions and they can't demonstrate consent?....Both of which are patently false and stupid to even assert.
The difference between adult humans having sex and an adult human having sex with an animal is consent. Find me a state in the US that acknowledges an animal is capable of giving consent to sex with a human and you win all the internets.

I just demonstrated that law has nothing to do with this discussion of morality and acceptable behaviors, this discussion isn't even confined by the parameters of the US territory.
Like I said...most animals have no problem demonstrating consent....have you never witnessed a dog hold its ground when it doesn't consent to moving any further or an animal react violently when it doesn't consent to a certain action?
 
Originally Posted by Peep Game

I find it pretty embarrassing that actual HUMAN BEINGS are being compared to dogs and toasters. If a dog
ever walks up to me and gives me consent, I'll disintegrate from the earth.
You never been humped by a dog? 
glasses.gif
 
Originally Posted by Boys Noize


Q1nCX.jpg



This is Adam he homeschooled his daughter until highschool where she enrolled in an online college.

Adam is a consenting adult. His daughter is a consenting adult. Hopefully incest rights makes more sense.

Or is the line drawn at incest? why?
laugh.gif
 
Originally Posted by DeadsetAce

why is comparing race and sexuality so unaccepted? oh right...because simple folks believe sexual orientation is a choice
laugh.gif

laugh.gif
 

Im black from far away. You can choose to hate me or fear me from across the street.

What I do in the bedroom You wont know unless I tell you. 

And if someone is black AND gay he'll be judge by his skin color first.

That simple. STOP comparing the 2 
happy.gif
 
Originally Posted by Boys Noize

Originally Posted by 00david00

Originally Posted by TimCity2000


if that's your argument... what is the difference between bestiality and heterosexuality then?
should we allow bestiality since we allow heterosexuality?

in regards to the difference between bestiality and heterosexuality....
one produces fertile, viable offspring (required for species to survive)
and the other does not
same distinction can not be stated with regard to homosexuality vs bestiality

note: I am trying to argue that bestiality and homosexuality are the same thing, simply replying to what you asked.
homosexuals can also produce fertile, viable offspring. Not with the same sex partner but by being homosexual, you don't suddenly lose your ability to produce sperm or create eggs. Men can have their sperm artificially inseminated into a donor egg and carried by a surrogate mother. Women can be artificially inseminated and carry the child themselves. there is no similarity between bestiality and homosexuality. 
I never stated they lose their ability to produce sperm and eggs. We can make many unnatural things occur through various scientific methods what is the point you are making about being able to inseminate sperm into a donor egg? Naturally, homosexuality DOES NOT produce viable, fertile offspring. 

In regards to eusociality mentioned above in the wikipedia article. Eusociality with biologically sterile individuals is the most extreme form of kin selection. If you look at the definition of eusociality by Crespi here: http://beheco.oxfordjourn...rg/content/6/1/109.short it states that " definition specifies the requirement for irreversibly distinct behavioral groups or castes (with respect to sterility and/or other features), and such a definition excludes all social vertebrates, none of which have irreversible castes" So using eusociality to describe behaviors between mammals, even more broadly, vertebrates at all, is unaccountable.

And finally in regards to the point that heterosexual reproduction results in offspring that are infertile or not viable. Yes that is true, however that is not what happens MOST of the time. There are exceptions to everything, and simply saying sexual reproduction can be unsuccessful at times (in an evolutionary point of view) is not enough justification to say that it has the same capacity of reproduction as homosexual reproduction or bestiality.
 
Originally Posted by cartune

Originally Posted by Boys Noize

Originally Posted by goldenchild9

So the only difference between homosexuality and bestiality is that:

Animals aren't aware of their decisions and they can't demonstrate consent?....Both of which are patently false and stupid to even assert.
The difference between adult humans having sex and an adult human having sex with an animal is consent. Find me a state in the US that acknowledges an animal is capable of giving consent to sex with a human and you win all the internets.
So you do want the states to determine a human's right to love? 
But nah you cant compare homosexuality to bestiality 
laugh.gif
 
You can love your dog all you want. The difference is wanting to put your penis in it's booty or V and whether the state acknowledges your dog was cool with that.
Maybe you really think that two consenting adults having sex isn't that different than an adult and an animal. Because animals are capable of the same level of thought as humans. Because humans can understand animal emotion. Because animals can talk. Because Buster humping your leg means hes TOTALLY DOWN and consenting.

Keep reaching though.
 
Originally Posted by DeadsetAce

why is comparing race and sexuality so unaccepted? oh right...because simple folks believe sexual orientation is a choice
laugh.gif

MEN regardless of who they want to stick their member in, or who they allow to insert their anal orifice for orgasmic pleasure make a CONSCIOUS DECISION TO DO SO



These threads usually bring out the cousin plowers as well............... 
roll.gif
roll.gif


Gay defenders never have a viable answer for the incest situations either....................

lata
 
Originally Posted by Boys Noize

Originally Posted by cartune

Originally Posted by Boys Noize

The difference between adult humans having sex and an adult human having sex with an animal is consent. Find me a state in the US that acknowledges an animal is capable of giving consent to sex with a human and you win all the internets.
So you do want the states to determine a human's right to love? 
But nah you cant compare homosexuality to bestiality 
laugh.gif
 
You can love your dog all you want. The difference is wanting to put your penis in it's booty or V and whether the state acknowledges your dog was cool with that.
Maybe you really think that two consenting adults having sex isn't that different than an adult and an animal. Because animals are capable of the same level of thought as humans. Because humans can understand animal emotion. Because animals can talk. Because Buster humping your leg means hes TOTALLY DOWN and consenting.

Keep reaching though.

Dude I was agreeing with you 
 
Originally Posted by Boys Noize

Originally Posted by goldenchild9

Originally Posted by Boys Noize

homosexuals can also produce fertile, viable offspring. Not with the same sex partner but by being homosexual, you don't suddenly lose your ability to produce sperm or create eggs. Men can have their sperm artificially inseminated into a donor egg and carried by a surrogate mother. Women can be artificially inseminated and carry the child themselves. there is no similarity between bestiality and homosexuality. 
If their lifestyle was truly natural, they wouldn't have to resort to artificial means of procreation.
Alas, real life isn't that cut and dry is it? With your line of logic, infertility in either male or female in a heterosexual couple and they're doomed, no?
Science help us all 
tired.gif

Theres the thing though...



Its not about them being doomed but if a heterosexual couple can't reproduce they treat it as an ailment that needs remedy...don't know many people that take pride in infertility.

In every other case....an obstacle which prevents an otherwise able person from carrying out their desires, without the use of medical intervention, is deemed to be a sickness/impairment/disorder/disease. 




We're talking about a baseline of normal human health and behavior here.

Homosexuality was unclassified as mental disorder in 1973 because it became accepted by society and people who were once considered mentally sick, could now comfortably interact in a society which accepted their disorder. 


 
Originally Posted by cartune

Originally Posted by DeadsetAce

why is comparing race and sexuality so unaccepted? oh right...because simple folks believe sexual orientation is a choice
laugh.gif

laugh.gif
 

Im black from far away. You can choose to hate me or fear me from across the street.

What I do in the bedroom You wont know unless I tell you. 

And if someone is black AND gay he'll be judge by his skin color first.

That simple. STOP comparing the 2 
happy.gif
what's that have to do with it being OK to treat homosexuals unequally while we demand people of all races be treated equally? according to your little example, a person can be gay and not tell anyone and be treated equally, sure. but how is that fair, expecting someone to pretend to be something they're not?


thanks for proving my point by the way
laugh.gif
 
Back
Top Bottom