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Not at all.
It won't happen out of thin air tho, unfortunately.
***Official Political Discussion Thread***
- Thread in 'General' Thread starter Started by rico x hood,
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I'd make that argument. It's just that the PLO vision of what an independent Palestine looks like significantly differs from Hamas' (Hamas' policies are mostly religious and conservative, while Fatah has more of a left-wing flavor). The thing is, Hamas' vision and approach play into the hands of the Israeli far-right: increasing resistance to Israel provides cover to Israel to continue its intransigent policy towards Gaza and the West Bank.
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Can you point to an example in the entire history of the human race where terrorist attacks
persuaded the victims of said terror attack?
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...status quo or terrorism? feels like a false choice.
Yah I wouldn't say silence, you can read plenty of critisms of Isreal and especially the settlements.
in fact public opinion on the settlements in Israelis pretty mixed to negative.
The entire history of the human race should tell you the opposite. People will ALWAYS trade safety for justice.
That's what makes terrorism a uniquely ineffective strategy for minority interests, it radicalizes the populace against you.
This is just magical thinking, Those are totally different situations.
Hati liberated itself as a majority being a oppressed by minority power that was an ocean away in a world with no planes.
Not to mention malaria killing like 50% of any reinforcements that arrived.
and I would argue the terrorism/genocide Jean-Jacques Dessalines carried out at the end of the Haitian Revolution.
was INCREDIBLY harmful, it nuked any chance of international support and probabaly contributes to the poor state of Hati today.
Isreal is there, they aren't going anywhere, anything that happens is going to require the consent of Israel.
If you dislike the status quo I don't see how you can support terrorism.
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Love to see it. I think Marc Elias is out here doing the necessary work. Considering doing monthly donations to Democracy Docket, these Republicans will not stop until they get absolutely curbstomped in the courts and forced to make changes.
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The Palestinians should conduct more civilized warfare using these easy steps:
1.) establish a reserve currency of the world than sanction Israel. Deny Israel access to fuel and medical equipment. Sanction other countries that object to those sanctions and who try to trade with Israel.
2.) create soft power that portrays all or most Israelis a as mindless, zombie like, monolith of violence and oppression. Feign concern for the rights of Orthodox Jewish women and children who are not always able to get 12+ years of formal schooling, cite that as a totally legitimate justification for war and occupation. the Palestinians are on a mission to civilize. Also, it’s helpful to insinuate that Israel’s allies in South Asia, North America, and Europe are all from the same swamp and are all aligned in a singular goal of unleashing violence in Delhi, Toronto, and Paris. The West and its Allies have a mindless death drive.
Above all, the Palestinians must use their consent manufacturing apparatus to let the world know that everything they do is about advancing freedom and human rights.
3.) The actual fighting should mostly be done with drones. Target senior IDF leadership mostly. There will be collateral damage but if a few weddings or schools or hospitals (and emergency relief services) get triple tapped, that’s the price of advancing freedom. Maybe also assassinate leaders of countries allied with Israel as well.
4.) take out every major conventional means of resistance from Israelis.
5.) take over most Israeli territory and settle Arabs on it. This is NOT ethnic cleansing because Palestinians did bow to international pressure and graciously allow Israelis to live in isolated, pockets of land with very limited resources. Be sure to set up the Palestinian defense force (PDF) that beats up a few Israelis on important Jewish holidays
6.) endgame, after a few decades, Israelis will forcefully escape their squalid, besieged enclaves. Some of them my commit acts of violence against Arab young people at a music festival. Sit back and watch international opinion turn on what the Israelis are doing after they escaped the reservations that you put them in.
1.) establish a reserve currency of the world than sanction Israel. Deny Israel access to fuel and medical equipment. Sanction other countries that object to those sanctions and who try to trade with Israel.
2.) create soft power that portrays all or most Israelis a as mindless, zombie like, monolith of violence and oppression. Feign concern for the rights of Orthodox Jewish women and children who are not always able to get 12+ years of formal schooling, cite that as a totally legitimate justification for war and occupation. the Palestinians are on a mission to civilize. Also, it’s helpful to insinuate that Israel’s allies in South Asia, North America, and Europe are all from the same swamp and are all aligned in a singular goal of unleashing violence in Delhi, Toronto, and Paris. The West and its Allies have a mindless death drive.
Above all, the Palestinians must use their consent manufacturing apparatus to let the world know that everything they do is about advancing freedom and human rights.
3.) The actual fighting should mostly be done with drones. Target senior IDF leadership mostly. There will be collateral damage but if a few weddings or schools or hospitals (and emergency relief services) get triple tapped, that’s the price of advancing freedom. Maybe also assassinate leaders of countries allied with Israel as well.
4.) take out every major conventional means of resistance from Israelis.
5.) take over most Israeli territory and settle Arabs on it. This is NOT ethnic cleansing because Palestinians did bow to international pressure and graciously allow Israelis to live in isolated, pockets of land with very limited resources. Be sure to set up the Palestinian defense force (PDF) that beats up a few Israelis on important Jewish holidays
6.) endgame, after a few decades, Israelis will forcefully escape their squalid, besieged enclaves. Some of them my commit acts of violence against Arab young people at a music festival. Sit back and watch international opinion turn on what the Israelis are doing after they escaped the reservations that you put them in.
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Anybody have any good reading material on what’s going on in the Middle East for the last 80 years and up to now with really basic/simple explanations so that I can better understand it?
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I feel like this is a lot of paragraphs to basically say "they deserve it".
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I’m pointing out how self serving it is for those who use violence to point to someone with far, far fewer resources and say “oh the types of violence that you’re using are unacceptable.”
It’s the international version of a law banning both rich and poor people from sleeping under a bridge.
If people incarcerated in the open air concentration camp known as the Gaza Strip, had drones, and the ability to fight with economic sanctions as a means to free themselves, they would have. Instead they are using what they have available and it’s not pretty but neither are drone strikes or the sight of people dying from preventable diseases due to sanctions. Somehow, those who use kidnappings and small scale rockets are terrorists but those who use drones and sanctions are given Nobel Peace Prizes.
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rape/torture/killing civilians
is not a "means to free themselves"
it's a means to perpetuate the status quo and ensure more bloodshed.
there is no amount of terrorism that will make Israel disappear.
They are there and they are never leaving.
any end to the conflict will need the consent of Israel.
I totally understand why Palestinians support Hamas,
but I don't understand why third party people watching from miles away like you or me should support or justify the actions of Hamas.
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Look up the six day war
RustyShackleford
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Hamas indiscriminately murdered innocent people in the street
That is why they are being called terrorists
People can condemn what the Israeli government does as terrorism too if they want (I would probably agree with a ton of it), without lowkey trying to justify what Hamas did.
The Israeli far right and Hamas are just perpetuating a feedback loop that makes sure nothing fundamentally changes, and more innocent people (especially Palestinians) keep dying
That is why they are being called terrorists
People can condemn what the Israeli government does as terrorism too if they want (I would probably agree with a ton of it), without lowkey trying to justify what Hamas did.
The Israeli far right and Hamas are just perpetuating a feedback loop that makes sure nothing fundamentally changes, and more innocent people (especially Palestinians) keep dying
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You’re making the mistake of conflating fast violence with slow violence.
The West only tends to eschew fast violence because it has such a powerful capacity to inflict slow violence. The West gets to set the narrative. Conveniently, slow violence is something that we may feel bad amount but it simply must be done or so says all the self proclaimed very serious people in hegemonic western media.
Fast violence, we are told, must never be done under any circumstances.
Again, it’s very convenient for the powerful since they can murder and torture you through privation and manufactured social death, inflicted against individuals or against entire nations.
If each and every country and entity swore off violence of every sort (and truly adhered to it), then what Hamas is doing would be wrong.
Now you might ask “how’s you like to be kidnapped, murdered, or tortured by militants.” I’d say that I wouldn’t like it either. I’m sure you’d get the same response from people dying of renal failure or diabetes in Gaza, or someone whom the US kidnapped and held in Gitmo, or a Yemeni dying of starvation.
If you want the Palestinians to fight fair, give them drones and sanctioning power and they’ll fight in an honorable, contemporary western manner.
Nike Jordan
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RustyShackleford
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Damn, everyone starting the week locked in
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im not conflating anything.
the current state of gaza is bad
terrorism is also bad.
again your argument just seems to boil down to, israel deserves terrorism.
Who deserves what is irrelevant.
If your primary goal is health and safety of Palestinian people then terrorism is wrong.
Terrorism will simply kill more palestinians and prolong the conflict.
I just feel like you are treating this like an airy theoretical moral philosophy debate.
and not engaging with the hard facts on the ground.
Israel is there, they are never leaving. they have money and resources and tremendous defense capabilities.
they will fight to the last man to defend it.
What exactly does terrorism accomplish besides killing more Palestinians?
why should we support Hamas raping women and tourists. how does it bring anyone closer to peace?
RustyShackleford
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Pretty much my general feelings
elpablo21
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"I can't top this"
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Nike Jordan
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This is true.
Still, it's important to mention that the status quo is the slow and methodical conquest of what remains of Palestine; it's not a stalemate where borders are not moving.
It's also important to mention that the US unconditional support of Israel does not help. Throughout the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, I don't remember the US besieging entire areas of those countries. Israel can declare a complete siege of Gaza, and the US government being silent about it is an issue.
Finally, we definitely poured oil on the fire when we moved the US embassy to Jerusalem, killed that Iranian general, and declared the Middle East issue solved.
RustyShackleford
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I agree with all this
And it is worth mentioning
Fundamentally, this conflict has been fueled and escalated mostly by the Israeli/US side for a while now.
It is just that I wouldn't accept this as justification for what Hamas did (no saying you are doing this). Speaking generally.
For many reasons, what Hamas did was wrong.
Morally, tactically, etc.
